Ladies and the value of the 3A

[mrrice]

Unless the value of a 3A were to increase, I don't think I'd let my students train for it. Now that you can gain so many points from back loading your programs, that's the route I would choose for my students. Not only can your garner more points, it also helps a skater to develop stamina. Anyone who thinks that Meds Triple Triple Tano's in the second half of her program are easy should try it for themselves. Trust me, if it were easy, every skater would be trying them.

I know that was a lot but, my verdict on the 3A for "Most Ladies" is no. Now, there are big jumpers that may find it easy and that's great but, Tuk made them look easy and it didn't even get her on the Russian Team....IMO, they take too much time train and the risk of injury is not worth the reward.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Now, there are big jumpers that may find it easy and that's great but, Tuk made them look easy and it didn't even get on the Russian Team....IMO, they take too much time train and the risk of injury is not worth the reward.

Let's also remember that Liza was landing these cleanly in practice at 13 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdkDLBmBFBU), and even then she was only able to land them in competition over a span of a few months. It's a very tough jump and should be rewarded more.

 

[bobbob]

Think about it this way. A 3A would presumably replace a 2A in both programs (must be for the short), and the current base value is 8.50. If it is fully rotated with +2s across the board, it is 10.5 points. A double axel with +2s across the board is 4.3. 6.2 is a pretty big difference. Even a fall on a rotated triple is more than a +2 GOE double 8.5-3-1 > 4.3. So basically as long as it is rotated, even if its the worst landing you've ever seen, the triple will score more than the clean well done double. If the landing on the triple is only poor but not terrible, the skater stands to gain 2-3 points... Now let's say it is underrotated, the triple. An UR triple axel with a negative GOE of 2 would STILL yield around the same number of points as a +2 double axel...

So I think there is enough incentive for ladies who are capable of doing it to do it. I don't think mens and ladies should have differing base values or the same elements, anyways.

 

[Yatagarasu]

I admit I think the value of the 3A currently seems all right to me. It isn't just the actual BV, we have the higher SoV and then there is the cascade effect on the whole program of one added triple, or even two perhaps, depending, where the whole of TES goes up. If a lady has all her triples, including the 3A that is fully rotated and with positive GOEs, she is on top.

Another thing is that well, if we're talking about the 3A not having enough of a value, then what would prevent a quad from going through the same procedure? Even fewer ladies have landed that. There's also the question of whether upping the value of the 3A (and quads) would increase the risk, in the sense that more ladies would be willing to give it a go, even if the jumps weren't actually ready.

In this matter, I'm in the same place as I was before, and that's getting the ISU to finally think about changing the values of combinations. There is a lot of potential there and though I think it wouldn't hurt to change this for the men as well, even if it was just for the ladies, I see that as a far better option. There will always be far fewer ladies that are able to land a 3A, not to mention perhaps eek out a quad, but the combinations truly open up the field for many more skaters (and it still won't be as many as some would think, as we see today with backloading; these things are difficult!).

 

[mrrice]

So I think there is enough incentive for ladies who are capable of doing it to do it. I don't think mens and ladies should have differing base values or the same elements, anyways.[/QUOTE]


Don't say those words in Ballet Class........Your teacher will smack you. BRB

It's all about the big "T" I copied the this information from livestrong.com

Testosterones also promote growth of the male muscular system. That is why men are more muscled than women. These muscles are men’s edge to doing more than women can. It also affects and empowers their strength. That includes jumping higher..........

 

[jaylee]

Don't some federations already award extra bonuses to those attempting 3A/quads at domestic competitions?

I'd like to see bonuses given for quads or 3As in the senior ladies division.

Golf has a variety of stats that I find interesting--they have the "money list" (list of who has won the most prize money), but then there are stats for who is currently in the top 10 of putting, top 10 drives (distance), top 10 in scoring average, etc. These stats are not per competition--it's for the whole season.

I'd like to see skating track a variety of stats over the course of the season. Who's done the most quads? Who's earning the most +GOE on jumps? Who's earning the most +GOE on spins? On step sequences? Who has the highest average PCS?

This is something that I'd like to see federations, like the USFSA, track and award at the end of the season. Maybe skaters could get a token trophy and a cash bonus for winning a category. This would reward and highlight skaters who excel at a certain skill, while competition results would still encourage them to improve in ALL areas.

 

[lyndichee]

Think about it this way. A 3A would presumably replace a 2A in both programs (must be for the short), and the current base value is 8.50. If it is fully rotated with +2s across the board, it is 10.5 points. A double axel with +2s across the board is 4.3. 6.2 is a pretty big difference. Even a fall on a rotated triple is more than a +2 GOE double 8.5-3-1 > 4.3. So basically as long as it is rotated, even if its the worst landing you've ever seen, the triple will score more than the clean well done double. If the landing on the triple is only poor but not terrible, the skater stands to gain 2-3 points... Now let's say it is underrotated, the triple. An UR triple axel with a negative GOE of 2 would STILL yield around the same number of points as a +2 double axel...

So I think there is enough incentive for ladies who are capable of doing it to do it. I don't think mens and ladies should have differing base values or the same elements, anyways.

There isn't enough incentive because of what another poster mentioned: the cascading affect. It affects the rest of the time spent on training other jumps and requires a lot of effort. Plus it difficult to get the full rotation, especially if a lady is falling. One of the most important details in figure skating today is the full rotation; there were debates that Mao's 3A was always slightly underrotated but not enough to get called. I highly doubt any lady attempting it will get away with full rotation.

 

[padme21]

The problem I always had with Mao and the 3A was that she would sometimes let her obsession with the 3A get in the way of the rest of her performance. (Example: Sochi sp) I have no doubt that if she hadn't been so obsessed with the 3A she'd have been on the podium. I'm all for the value of the 3A being increased in ladies provided that the judges award a cleanly excuted 3A. No underrotations.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

So basically as long as it is rotated, even if its the worst landing you've ever seen, the triple will score more than the clean well done double.

The main problem is that most women have issues with rotation and barely get the easier triples all the way around. I think it would take a lot of effort just to get the 3A rotated, so while 4.5 > 4.3, it requires a lot of energy and training to earn that 0.2 edge, not even factoring in the likely PCS hit from a fall.

 

[mcq]

That is because up until now, there is no ladies who has decent consistency on both 3-3s and 3A? Unless you have 60-70% success rate on your 3A (2 out of 3 landed), the jump does not worth a try. Why? Because if you failed your 3A, you would drop in scores and placements and ladies with more consistent triples and 3-3 would be ahead of you. That is why it is discouraging. And that is why it is not working for Tuktamysheva and Asada.

I also think there should be at least 2-3 top competitors who land it quite consistently for it to encourage others to try it, because if one is not landing it, maybe the others would thus it would be a rotation on who land what (much like the men). It is just like in the men's field, people initially thought doing many numbers of quads are not worth it. But after Boyang landed 4Lz quite consistently with 6 quad program and Hanyu landed a total of 5 quads in back-to-back event, the technical progression in men went on turbo mode in a season.

I think 3A will come naturally after pyeongchang, even with the current BV, because Eteri's kids have maxed out the BV with all triples-no 3A, so there will be more ladies trying different approach to garner more points to surpass Medvedeva like doing 3A. I heard Rika Kihira will add a second 3A to her long program, and Wakaba is already preparing in doing them. Mirai is training them too. If they manage to land it pretty consistently in competition (at the very least 1 out of 2) and actually win, naturally it will encourage more people to train it and put it in a program.

Don't some federations already award extra bonuses to those attempting 3A/quads at domestic competitions?

I'd like to see bonuses given for quads or 3As in the senior ladies division.

Golf has a variety of stats that I find interesting--they have the "money list" (list of who has won the most prize money), but then there are stats for who is currently in the top 10 of putting, top 10 drives (distance), top 10 in scoring average, etc. These stats are not per competition--it's for the whole season.

I'd like to see skating track a variety of stats over the course of the season. Who's done the most quads? Who's earning the most +GOE on jumps? Who's earning the most +GOE on spins? On step sequences? Who has the highest average PCS?

This is something that I'd like to see federations, like the USFSA, track and award at the end of the season. Maybe skaters could get a token trophy and a cash bonus for winning a category. This would reward and highlight skaters who excel at a certain skill, while competition results would still encourage them to improve in ALL areas.

I don't know about Feds but website like rinkresults and skatedb.net had made list of the bolded part above. Skatedb even have each jumps' success rate from almost every CoP single skater in their career.

 

[Ballade88]

I didn't get a chance to listen to this podcast yet but I hope they talked more about things than the 3A. Her legacy is really much more than that imo. Mao received so much criticism over the years for not being consistent with her 3A. But I can't remember any ladies skater with a consistent 3A. Not Ito nor Harding. I remember a blogger made a comparison on all the 3A ladies in history and Mao actually landed the most out of anyone. It's rare because it's super difficult and a risky move. Many male skaters have struggled with the jump, and some former Olympic champions imo.

What makes her unique is that she was just as focused on the aesthetic qualities of skating (positions, lines, extensions, etc.) as she was on that jump. Even during her gloomy TAT years, she was still hitting beautiful positions. That's her unique legacy: the combination of beauty while pushing technical boundaries in her discipline.

 

[mrrice]

The main problem is that most women have issues with rotation and barely get the easier triples all the way around. I think it would take a lot of effort just to get the 3A rotated, so while 4.5 > 4.3, it requires a lot of energy and training to earn that 0.2 edge, not even factoring in the likely PCS hit from a fall.

This is biggest reason for not adding a 3A!!!!!!!! Even if it's just 2 footed, it will effect the not only the GOE but there will be break in the flow of the program which will lower the PCS number.

 

[pohatta]

3A does have a lot of value in the SP, because one of the 3 jumping passes has to be an axel and 3A puts you in a different category from everyone else. The 2A ladies can compensate some of it by backloading, but it's also possible to backload the 3A. Midori did her olympic 3A in the second half of her LP.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Midori did her olympic 3A in the second half of her LP.

Midori was otherworldly. I can't imagine any other skater strong enough to do a late 3A.

 

[Globetrotter]

Midori was otherworldly. I can't imagine any other skater strong enough to do a late 3A.

It is unlikely that we will get another Midori Ito in the next 50 years. She's a jumping phenom - she may be small but those legs are muscular and powerful. No lady skater had landed 3A in the 2nd half of an LP except Ito. I am pretty sure though that if Albertville 92 was scored under CoP, Ito's LP would have easily outscored Yamaguchi.

 

[TGee]

3A does have a lot of value in the SP, because one of the 3 jumping passes has to be an axel and 3A puts you in a different category from everyone else. The 2A ladies can compensate some of it by backloading, but it's also possible to backload the 3A. Midori did her olympic 3A in the second half of her LP.

But one shouldn't discount the psychological impact of not landing the 3A on the skater's delivery of the rest of the program. Alaine Chartrand included a 3A attempt in her FS in 2015-2016, but it seemed to destabilize the program time after time, until she dropped it for nationals.

Alaine is evidently back at training the 3A as well as a 3Lz-3T and a two-arms up tano 3Lo. Her fan facebook page [which is reportedly maintained by family] has been posting gifs...here are the links.....Kudos to her for maintaining her drive to push herself and the discipline...

Progress on 3A montage "Every day and every way I'm getting better" --- gives a feel for how tough it it is to get the jump fully rotated and an into a clean running edge

3Lz-3T from 4CC warm-up

3Lo tano from 4CC practice

 

[Barb]

I didn't get a chance to listen to this podcast yet but I hope they talked more about things than the 3A. Her legacy is really much more than that imo. Mao received so much criticism over the years for not being consistent with her 3A. But I can't remember any ladies skater with a consistent 3A. Not Ito nor Harding. I remember a blogger made a comparison on all the 3A ladies in history and Mao actually landed the most out of anyone. It's rare because it's super difficult and a risky move. Many male skaters have struggled with the jump, and some former Olympic champions imo.

What makes her unique is that she was just as focused on the aesthetic qualities of skating (positions, lines, extensions, etc.) as she was on that jump. Even during her gloomy TAT years, she was still hitting beautiful positions. That's her unique legacy: the combination of beauty while pushing technical boundaries in her discipline.

Exactly. People get all excited with Mirai landing the 3a in sporadic videos in practices, same for Wakaba, but Mao landed it multiple times in competitions and practices, more than any other woman, she even landed it 3 times in 1 competition, in the dam..n olympics, no less.

So, considering how many women and how many times the 3a is/was landed by women, the value is a joke. But given that Mao is retired and she never got enough benefit of this jump, I hope they won´t increase the value now . Everyone can keep delighting in those incredibly difficult backloading programs with mediocre tanos.

 

[Ares]

But one shouldn't discount the psychological impact of not landing the 3A on the skater's delivery of the rest of the program. Alaine Chartrand included a 3A attempt in her FS in 2016-2017, but it seemed to destabilize the program time after time, until she dropped it for nationals.

Alaine is evidently back at training the 3A as well as a 3Lz-3T and a two-arms up tano 3Lo. Her fan facebook page [which is reportedly maintained by family] has been posting gifs...here are the links.....Kudos to her for maintaining her drive to push herself and the discipline...

Progress on 3A montage "Every day and every way I'm getting better" --- gives a feel for how tough it it is to get the jump fully rotated and an into a clean running edge

3Lz-3T from 4CC warm-up

3Lo tano from 4CC practice

I think Chartrand experimented with 3A back in 2015 / 2016 season. I don't recall any 3A attempt from her this season.

 

[TGee]

I think Chartrand experimented with 3A back in 2015 / 2016 season. I don't recall any 3A attempt from her this season.

You are absolutely correct :agree:

....I meant to say last season and should have written 2015-2016.

I guess my brain is already processing 2016-2017 as 'last season'....well a few more days.....

[I've corrected my post now...]

 

[Warwick360]

3A does have a lot of value in the SP, because one of the 3 jumping passes has to be an axel and 3A puts you in a different category from everyone else. The 2A ladies can compensate some of it by backloading, but it's also possible to backload the 3A. Midori did her olympic 3A in the second half of her LP.

She did hers in second half probably because she needed it. It was all or nothing. I wonder if she'd have done it, if she had done the first one clean. Having said that, I still wait for someone like Midori. The closest one that comes to mind is Daleman with her huge Lutz, but alas there is no 3A, yet.

Personally, I wish at least one quad was allowed in the ladies SP. I read somewhere in the GS forum that currently a Quad isn't allowed in an SP. That's a shame because it would probably change the map of skating if at least one was allowed in SP, considering the number of girls we've heard about who were experimenting with a Quad.

Having said that, I still think a 3A is good as it is, with its current GOEs and base value. I don't want to see splat fest just because girls want to roll the dice with low probability when on ice. I'd want them to do it only when they're somewhat secure. Also a 3A already has a potential 6 point lead against a double Axel when done in an SP. I don't see why that shouldn't be an incentive enough.