How would you change the rules for jump combinations/sequences?

[AxelLover]

I think I'm not the only one who's tired of seeing those +2A+2A sequnces and +1Eu+3S combos all the time, I generally prefer +3T and +3Lo combinations aesthetically. With current rules many skaters chose to do something+1Eu+3S, something+2A+2A and then only one "normal" combination with +2T or +3T (rarely the loop). If I was to make the rules, I would do the following:

1. One combination consists of three jumps, where the second and third jump are toeloops or loops (eg. 3Lz+3T+2Lo or 3A+3T+2T or 3F+3Lo+3Lo, etc.)
2. One combination consists of two jumps, where the second jump is T or Lo (eg. 4S+3T or 3Lz+3Lo).
3. In the two combinations above, there has to be at least one loop as the second or third jump and the same for toeloop. This rule means that you can't do, for example, 4S+3T+2T and 3Lo+3T because there are no loops in the "+" parts of those combos.
4. One combination is of the form "something+1Eu+something" OR "something+Axel SEQ".

Along with this the Zayak rule would have to be changed but that's for another topic so let's not discuss it now.

Examples of valid jump combination layouts:

3Lz+3T+2T
3F+2Lo
3S+2A

3Lo+3Lo+2Lo
3Lz+2T
3F+1Eu+3S

4T+3T+3Lo
4T+2T
3A+1Eu+3F

4S+3T+2Lo
3A+4T
4Lz+3A

Your thoughts?

 

[flanker]

Unfortunately the rules will probably change for easing the the jumping content in the off season so we won't see much of it now.

 

[AxelLover]

Unfortunately the rules will probably change for easing the the jumping content in the off season so we won't see much of it now.

Sure, this thread was meant more like "what are your dream scenario rules", not what is realistically gonna happen.

 

[flanker]

Sure, this thread was meant more like "what are your dream scenario rules", not what is realistically gonna happen.

Well my dream is that at the congress they will cancel those stupid changes, sport has to progress not regress.

I was not happy about evening sequences with combos but on the other hand there are less Euler combos which I don't like too so I am fine with that now.

What I would want to see, well first I would like to see fine triple+triple combos in women's programs, women are regressing on average as for difficulty. Then, in men more stability esp. with combos, yes. I like that e.g. Shaidorov does his 4S+3A, that should an inspiration for more men.

 

[Anna K.]

I would leave the short program as it is. I think it works well.

For the free program, I would leave only two jumping passes in the existing point scale, a solo jump and a combo/sequence (as there will be only one, there will be no need for Zayak or any other regulations - just try the hardest thing you can and get the most points out of it).

As for the remaining free program jumping passes, I would replace them with "choreographic jumps" similarly like there are "choreographic lifts" in Ice Dance all with same point value and GOE so that the jumps can be anything: doubles, triples, open axels, series of split jumps, whatever combos (1+2+3 if you can) and if you have an extra quad to show off, do it. I would specifically add a point... no, wait! two points - or, even better, three points so that the element doubles in value - for originality with a simple rule: a jump counts as original if nobody else does this specific jump/combo/sequence in the given free skate session. Of course, nobody's stupid; the folks will quickly figure out "if you do this, I do that" and the audience won't see repeating stuff ever again. Oh, and not to forget: a fall on a "choreographic jump" = 0 points.

Yup. I'm genius. I'll come back in a while and take a look on how genius ye'll the rest have been.

 

[ladyjane]

Any change, making me see more loop jumps would be preferable to what is is now. I like your suggestion @AxelLover!

 

[flanker]

I would leave the short program as it is. I think it works well.

For the free program, I would leave only two jumping passes in the existing point scale, a solo jump and a combo/sequence (as there will be only one, there will be no need for Zayak or any other regulations - just try the hardest thing you can and get the most points out of it).

As for the remaining free program jumping passes, I would replace them with "choreographic jumps" similarly like there are "choreographic lifts" in Ice Dance all with same point value and GOE so that the jumps can be anything: doubles, triples, open axels, series of split jumps, whatever combos (1+2+3 if you can) and if you have an extra quad to show off, do it. I would specifically add a point... no, wait! two points for originality with a simple rule: a jump counts as original if nobody else does this specific jump/combo/sequence in the given free skate session. Of course, nobody's stupid; the folks will quickly figure out "if you do this, I do that" and the audience won't see repeating stuff ever again. Oh, and not to forget: a fall on a "choreographic jump" = 0 points.

Yup. I'm genius. I'll come back in a while and take a look on how genius ye'll the rest have been.

Then suggest you to rather demand to settle solo dance category full of choreo jumps. Such would be suitable for increasing number of bad jumpers who also are not pair dance material.

 

[Anna K.]

Then suggest you to rather demand to settle solo dance category full of choreo jumps. Such would be suitable for increasing number of bad jumpers who also are not pair dance material.

I don't see any sense in this. In dance, there are only single jumps. That would be monotonous. In singles, we have doubles, triples, and quads. Way more options for combinations and different strategies. Do you mean adding all these to solo dance? What's the point if we already have singles?

 

[4everchan]

I'd like a combo/sequence of multiple jumps 4 or 5 of them. It was possible in the past and it was fun. It was also quite creative in some cases.

I'd like to remove the sequence with two axels. I am fine with +A but not with +A+A .. .these are clunky and ugly and slow in most cases

I like the idea of the OP to promote the + loop combos. In my scenario, they may happen in the prolonged sequences of 4-5 jumps

 

[lariko]

I would also like one combo of up to 5 jumps and one of up to 3 jumps allowed in free if we lose one combo in both singles and pairs. One combo can be up to 3 jumps in short. The same set of rules for jumps for junior women as they are for junior men. Relax Zayak rule if jumps are used in combination, just forbid repeating the same jump as a single jump more than 2x.

 

[Mathman]

I'd like a combo/sequence of multiple jumps 4 or 5 of them....

I like the idea of the OP to promote the + loop combos. In my scenario, they may happen in the prolonged sequences of 4-5 jumps

I once saw Shizuka Arakawa (in exhibition) do a sequence of something like 23 double and single loops.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I think I'm not the only one who's tired of seeing those +2A+2A sequnces and +1Eu+3S combos all the time, I generally prefer +3T and +3Lo combinations aesthetically. With current rules many skaters chose to do something+1Eu+3S, something+2A+2A and then only one "normal" combination with +2T or +3T (rarely the loop). If I was to make the rules, I would do the following:

1. One combination consists of three jumps, where the second and third jump are toeloops or loops (eg. 3Lz+3T+2Lo or 3A+3T+2T or 3F+3Lo+3Lo, etc.)
2. One combination consists of two jumps, where the second jump is T or Lo (eg. 4S+3T or 3Lz+3Lo).
3. In the two combinations above, there has to be at least one loop as the second or third jump and the same for toeloop. This rule means that you can't do, for example, 4S+3T+2T and 3Lo+3T because there are no loops in the "+" parts of those combos.
4. One combination is of the form "something+1Eu+something" OR "something+Axel SEQ".

Along with this the Zayak rule would have to be changed but that's for another topic so let's not discuss it now.

Examples of valid jump combination layouts:

3Lz+3T+2T
3F+2Lo
3S+2A

3Lo+3Lo+2Lo
3Lz+2T
3F+1Eu+3S

4T+3T+3Lo
4T+2T
3A+1Eu+3F

4S+3T+2Lo
3A+4T
4Lz+3A

Your thoughts?

+3Lo is (often) beautiful but it seems to be really difficult, restricted to the very few best jumpers, Men or Women by the way. It strikes me (I suppose that it has been debated here because it's an old complaint I think) that a 3T + 3Lo won't be rewarded over a 3Lo + 3T. In any case, a skater who wishes to jump two Triple Axels in their Free Skating, and twice a Quadruple jump, or two 3Lz and two 3F... will avoid to have another +3T combination because it will prevent them from maximising their layout. Before the restoration of the Sequences Base Values, most would have a +2T but it was a loss, in this respect +2A is a real gain for many. I agree that two consecutive Axel jumps after another jump is rarely beautiful, but I'm not convinced that it's impossible to have beautiful such sequences. I find most Eulers more jarring than the usual +2A+2A? Although I admit that the latter tends to break the program more (when the program is really an unity, which is not that frequent), but then, there are Components, which are supposed to take it into account? Do you think that Composition and Performance tend to ignore the problem?
As we say in French, oil painting is well difficult but it's more beautiful than watercolors? But watercolors can also be beautiful...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBzO5ZrUsOs

 

[4everchan]

the most important fix for me however, is not what should be allowed or not but how base value is calculated

For instance, I have an issue with 3loop-3toe being the same value as 3toe-3loop
Same with 4t-3t ... a combo featuring 3t-4t should be rewarded more.

In the old times (6.0) some women would indeed do things like 2+3 combos and this was valued as harder. It could be more creative in some ways too.

For Zayak, I am not too sure I would want to relax the rules too much... Maybe a bit..
I think someone doing 3t-3t-3t should be allowed to do it . However, I am not sure I would want someone to also be able to do 3t-3t-3t and then 3t in any other jumping pass.

It could lead to someone doing 4t-4t and then 4t-3t-3t. how many toe loops do we want

A combo that was hot back in the days was 4t-3t-3loop... very few people did it... but if a 3 jump combo without was allowed in the SP (please no axel or Euler sequences though). it may encourage some men to go for something like that... or some women may try 3lz-3t-2loop

 

[flanker]

I don't see any sense in this. In dance, there are only single jumps. That would be monotonous. In singles, we have doubles, triples, and quads. Way more options for combinations and different strategies. Do you mean adding all these to solo dance? What's the point if we already have singles?

I say I don't see any sense in simplification of singles and if someone is in dislike with multiple hard jumps then let him have completely different discipline rather than ruining singles.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I once saw Shizuka Arakawa (in exhibition) do a sequence of something like 23 double and single loops.

Now that I'm thinking about it, in his competitive-style (but not bound by competitive rules) Dark Messenger program in RE_PRAY (skated at the end of the first part), Yuzuru Hanyu had a 4T + 1Eu + 3S + 1Eu + 3S, here's a cut of the program with just the jumps and little more:

TikTok - Make Your Day

 

[Mathman]

I have to say that I am not enthusiastic about trying to estimate the relative difficulty of every possible combination of jumps. (3T+3Lo versus 3Lo+3T.) For one thing this world add another two thousand entries to the scale of values. I am OK with a fixed base value for each jump. Let the judges give an extra 0.25 points on Choreography for a pretty 3T+3Lo if they are so moved.

Tara Lipinski won the1998 Olympics by doing a 3Lo + 3Lo combination, as did Irina Slutskaya at the 2005 Worlds Championships. In fact, Slutskaya did so many 3 loops that she Zayacked -- but won handily anyway.

More skaking, less rules about what you can and can't do -- that's the way to go.

 

[gkelly]

I don't have a problem with the current rules on combinations, but I would go back to sequences being worth 80% of base value, with stepping forward to an axel and a few other one-step or hop transitions between jumps permitted as connections between jumps in a sequence.

(But Euler can be treated as it is now, permitted and called to allow getting onto the BI edge for a flip or salchow afterward, full value for the combinatoin, but the Euler itself doesn't earn points or turn the jump-Euler-jump combo in to a three-jump combo.)

What I would like to see is rewarding other kinds of difficulty:

Small bonus (e.g., 1.1 multiplier) for the base value of the second or third jump in a true combination. This would make it more valuable to do loops instead of toe loops at the end of combinations, and it would also make double-triple or triple-quad combinations more valuable than triple-double and quad-triple respectively. It might also make doing something like one-foot axel-triple (or quad) salchow worth while, if the bonus for the salchow is enough to make up for the single axel being worth a few tenths less than a double toe.

Bonus for executing a jump combination with rotational jumps in both directions. My first suggestion is 1.0 per revolution of the "bad direction" jump, although this puts a burden on the tech panel to determine which jump is the bad-direction one, especially if performed by an unfamiliar skater as the first jumping pass in the program. I would expect these combos would frequently get called for review after the program. I'm open to other suggestions for how to reward this fairly.

Permitting one edge change or one one-foot turn from the landing edge of the first jump to the takeoff edge of the second jump. This would particularly useful to allow change-direction combos. It's already being allowed, without official comment, for this combination. I'd also like to see something like this explicitly a.lowed and rewarded.

Not about combinations per se, but as long we're here I'll also reiterate my wish that double and triple walley and double and triple inside axel get added to the Scale of Values. In which case they could also be included in combinations. The singles can remain as unlisted jumps/transitions.

 

[4everchan]

I have to say that I am not enthusiastic about trying to estimate the relative difficulty of every possible combination of jumps. (3T+3Lo versus 3Lo+3T.) For one thing this world add another two thousand entries to the scale of values. I am OK with a fixed base value for each jump. Let the judges give an extra 0.25 points on Choreography for a pretty 3T+3Lo if they are so moved.

Tara Lipinski won the1998 Olympics by doing a 3Lo + 3Lo combination, as did Irina Slutskaya at the 2005 Worlds Championships. In fact, Slutskaya did so many 3 loops that she Zayacked -- but won handily anyway.

More skaking, less rules about what you can and can't do -- that's the way to go.

the BV would simply be added and dealt with automatically... fans wouldn't have to worry about them... I am not sure what's so difficult about it..

For instance, combos with +loop could have a +X% on that bv of that loop.
Combos with second jump having one more rotation could have a +X% on that entire combo.

It's not that hard to implement. There are already bonuses in the second half... and as @gkelly mentioned, sequences used to have a 80% value

Downgrades already lower BV... etc. not a big deal in my opinion.

And by the way, you do illustrate my point with your examples : those who did use loop combos in the 6.0 eras were rewarded for it. Not necessarily anymore.

 

[Anna K.]

I say I don't see any sense in simplification of of singles and if someone is in dislike with multiple hard jumps then let him have completely different discipline rather than ruining singles.

Excuse me, but did you read my post before you answered? I do not suggest simplification. I suggest complication.

 

[Mathman]

the BV would simply be added and dealt with automatically... fans wouldn't have to worry about them... I am not sure what's so difficult about it...

To me, there are two "difficulties." If a (new or old} fan wanted to learn something about how figure skating scores are determined, that fan could consult the ISU scale of values. There our eager seeker-after-knowlege would find a matrix of ten thousand numbers. "Oh good, NOW I understand this sport -- count me in!"

Secondly, there is no "one-size-fits-all" fromula for what is relatively harder or easier. For Kristi Yamaguchi, the "hardest" jump was the Salchow. For others. that's the easiest. The Quad King Timothy Goebel out-jumped both Yagudin and Plushemko at the 2002 Olympics by doing two quad Salcjows (his easiest jump) and only one quad toe (harder).

For triples, the Lutz is the hardest (not counting the Axel). For quads, a 4Lz is easier that a 4F or a 4Lo.