How would you change the rules for jump combinations/sequences? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

How would you change the rules for jump combinations/sequences?

To me, there are two "difficulties." If a (new or old} fan wanted to learn something about how figure skating scores are determined, that fan could consult the ISU scale of values. There our eager seeker-after-knowlege would find a matrix of ten thousand numbers. "Oh good, NOW I understand this sport -- count me in!"

Secondly, there is no "one-size-fits-all" fromula for what is relatively harder or easier. For Kristi Yamaguchi, the "hardest" jump was the Salchow. For others. that's the easiest. The Quad King Timothy Goebel out-jumped both Yagudin and Plushemko at the 2002 Olympics by doing two quad Salcjows (his easiest jump) and only one quad toe (harder).

For triples, the Lutz is the hardest (not counting the Axel). For quads, a 4Lz is easier that a 4F or a 4Lo.
I am not sure what that has to do with my post.

Yes, some skaters are different. Grassl doesn't to toe and salchows but does the other three quads. For some skaters, the flip is the easiest jump.... some skaters (there is a junior girl in Canada) have all their triples (no axel) but the toe loop

But that's now how a scale of value is made. A scale of value is made based on averages.

Skaters right now do not do the tricky combos I have mentioned because there are no incentives for them to do them. Why bother ?

Look at the pairs no longer trying quads since the BV have been lowered.

I'd love to see different combos and a way to do this is to reward them properly.

The Bielmann spin is a great example of that. It was rather uncommon and with the IJS, when it became a "difficult layback position" it became something skaters worked on. Perhaps a bit too much now :). but it's no longer rare.

I'd love for +loop combos to be more common. They are very nice to look at when they are successful. l
 
Not about combinations per se, but as long we're here I'll also reiterate my wish that double and triple walley and double and triple inside axel get added to the Scale of Values. In which case they could also be included in combinations. The singles can remain as unlisted jumps/transitions.
Can anyone do a triple Walley or triple inside Axel?
 
I would also like one combo of up to 5 jumps and one of up to 3 jumps allowed in free if we lose one combo in both singles and pairs.
I could live with that if there are only 2 jump combos total.

One combo can be up to 3 jumps in short.
That kind of destroys the idea that the skill being tested (combining two jumps) is the same for everyone. It would allow quantity to outweigh difficulty and quality -- assuming the quality of the first two jumps is sufficient to allow a third planned jump to happen at all.

The same set of rules for jumps for junior women as they are for junior men.
Currently the two differences are:

1) Junior women are required to include a solo double axel. Junior men can do solo double or solo triple axel.
(Sure to happen one of these days. I don't have a huge problem with it being soon.)

2) Junior women can do jump combinations with two doubles, one double and one triple, or two triples. Junior men are required to include at least one triple in their combination.
(Removing the double-double option for junior women would have dire effects on the ability of junior-aged women from developing federations to participate in international competitions. Not to mention domestic competitions in countries like the US. Leaving the double-double option in would have no effect on the enjoyment of fans who don't watch juniors aside from the top contenders anyway.)

Relax Zayak rule if jumps are used in combination, just forbid repeating the same jump as a single jump more than 2x.
Meaning, you can repeat as many triples or quads as you want, as many times as you want, as long as they're in combination?
Or would you still limit the number of jumps that can be repeated but allow those two chosen repeats to be performed three or more times?
Or OK to repeat as many different triples or quads as you want, but no more than two of each?
 
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I am not sure what that has to do with my post.

I was responding to the part about "Fans don't have to worry about it [the detailed complexity of ISU scoring]"

I do think that this discourages fans from becoming more involved with the sport as spectators, and that it fuels the fires of habitual fan discontent with the lack of transparency in judging.

In hockey, the puck goes in the net, you get one point. Yay! I get it! :)
 
I was responding to the part about "Fans don't have to worry about it [the detailed complexity of ISU scoring]"

I do think that this discourages fans from becoming more involved with the sport as spectators, and that it fuels the fires of habitual fan discontent with the lack of transparency in judging.

In hockey, the puck goes in the net, you get one point. Yay! I get it! :)
I was talking about bonuses for tough combo
 
Can anyone do a triple Walley or triple inside Axel?
I've never seen seen those triples attempted or heard credible reports of such attempts. I think someone did say Jozef Sabovcik had attempted double and triple walley in the 1980s, in practice, but it could be the reported triple attempts were just awkward doubles.

However, if you add them to the Scale of Values, I would expect we would see a non-negligible number of double attempts within the first couple years they can gain points. Then a small percentage of those skaters who master the doubles would then go on to start working on triples. Might take a decade or so before anyone has them competition ready.

But if the SoV can include jumps up to 5Lz (base value 14.00) that no one has ever done yet, why not 3W and 3IA (or whatever their codes would be)? I'd suggest base values of about 7.00 and 9.00 respectively, but hey, get some quadmasters who are bored with their current repertory to experiment with them and see what they think about the difficulty of those triples relative to 3A.
In hockey, the puck goes in the net, you get one point. Yay! I get it! :)
In hockey, there is only one way to earn points. The interest and the complexity come from the unpredictable variety of ways one team can negotiate the defense of the other team to achieve that one thing -- getting the puck in the net.

In figure skating, there are hundreds of ways to earn points if you consider all the combinations and variations of skills, and errors, that add and subtract from the point totals.
If you're the kind of person who finds that level of complexity a turnoff, you're already not the target audience for this sport.

But if you enjoy watching skaters move across the ice at speed in different patterns, jump up and rotate and land, spin in different positions, all while trying to reflect nuances of the music accompanying their performances, you want to understand how they're scoring points while doing all those things, some of which you enjoy very much to watch and others you don't mind...

It can be summed with a brief explanation along the lines of "Skaters earn technical points for each element they do. Elements are scored on difficulty, reflected in base values for each element, as determined by a panel of technical experts, and quality (both positive and negative) reflected in grades of execution from the judges. Judges also award scores to each program as a whole in three areas: Composition, Performance, and Skating Skills.
If you're interested in details about how the scores are determined for each of these areas, here are links to the official documentation..."

The casual fan will understand the basic principles but won't care about the details.
The fans who do care about the details and want to do the research and come someplace like Golden Skate to argue about them have that option, to dive as deep as their level of interest takes them. That's part of the fun for many fans. If you're not one of those people, either this isn't the sport for you, or you can just enjoy watching the exciting movement and understand the general principles of the scoring without spending time researching details.
 
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Is this a single Walley + triple toe Walley + double loop? Elaine Zaayakm 1984 Worlds. (Thanks to Doris Pulaski post to GS, 2008.)

Perhaps, though maybe the toe walley would get a ! or even e if it were being scored as a separate jump different from the toe loop under current IJS standards.

There's a reason why, back in 1982, the ISU decided to consider toe walley and toe loop the same jump for purposes of the Zayak rule.

But when discussing walley jumps, can we please not mention toe walleys at all. It adds just as much confusion as if we were trying to have a conversation about loop jumps and people kept bringing up toe loops.
 
Funny this came up, just last night I was rewatching the worlds first 4T+3T+2L executed by Plushenko in his opening element. 2001. And I must admit, as arrogant as he can be, I still enjoy watching his performance. Amazingly entertaining which is more than I can say for a lot of men today with 456 quads in their program, falling on their asses, or +2A+2A.

 
But when discussing walley jumps, can we please not mention toe walleys at all. It adds just as much confusion as if we were trying to have a conversation about loop jumps and people kept bringing up toe loops.
(a) My impression of why a Walley jump is so hard is that, being a counter-rotation limp, the skater is not going to be able to whip around quickly in the air, and so has to get extra height -- without a toepick assist -- to get in multiple rotations. Is this right?

(b) What new combinations would be open to someone who had a double Walley as either a first or second jump? If your first jump lands on the correct foot (correct for the take-off of the second jump), does it matter if it lands on the wrong edge?
 
(a) My impression of why a Walley jump is so hard is that, being a counter-rotation limp, the skater is not going to be able to whip around quickly in the air, and so has to get extra height -- without a toepick assist -- to get in multiple rotations. Is this right?
That might be true for adding revolutions, but since walleys are pretty much only done as singles so far, there isn't much input about what the technique for multiple revolutions would require.

If you're interested in going down the rabbit hole about technique for single walleys, this is a useful video, although they do confusingly mention "outside walleys" (i.e., single loop jump with the free foot behind; they also come up with another name for that jump during the video).


(b) What new combinations would be open to someone who had a double Walley as either a first or second jump? If your first jump lands on the correct foot (correct for the take-off of the second jump), does it matter if it lands on the wrong edge?
Well, the landing if the walley is the usual back outside edge, so if someone was going to do double walley as the first jump in a combination they would probably just do a toe loop or maybe loop afterward.

We have occasionally seen a REVERSE (other direction) walley into triple lutz:

But that's just a single walley, as a transitional move. If anyone is going to be doing a reverse double jump into a regular-direction triple lutz, they'd probably choose a double that's easier than double walley.

We have also seen "half walley" (i.e., walley jump landed on the back inside edge of the other foot, similar to a half loop/Euler) used as a transition. As with the Euler, in theory this could be used as an entry into a salchow or flip. Again, if anyone is going to try a doulbe or triple jump into salchow or flip by landing on the other foot, they would probably choose an easier takeoff rather than double walley.

Another option would be to do any standard (triple?) jump, land on the back outside edge as usual, and then make a clear controlled change to the inside edge to take off for double walley. Similar to how Sonja Hilmer changes edge to do her reverse double salchow after a change of edge, but in this case the walley would rotate in the skater's normal rotational direction. However, Hilmer's example shows that tech panels will accept the edge change to get onto the back inside edge if it's clearly controlled and intentional in order to get onto the correct takeoff edge for the next jump.
 
I could live with that if there are only 2 jump combos total.


That kind of destroys the idea that the skill being tested (combining two jumps) is the same for everyone. It would allow quantity to outweigh difficulty and quality -- assuming the quality of the first two jumps is sufficient to allow a third planned jump to happen at all.


Currently the two differences are:

1) Junior women are required to include a solo double axel. Junior men can do solo double or solo triple axel.
(Sure to happen one of these days. I don't have a huge problem with it being soon.)

2) Junior women can do jump combinations with two doubles, one double and one triple, or two triples. Junior men are required to include at least one triple in their combination.
(Removing the double-double option for junior women would have dire effects on the ability of junior-aged women from developing federations to participate in international competitions. Not to mention domestic competitions in countries like the US. Leaving the double-double option in would have no effect on the enjoyment of fans who don't watch juniors aside from the top contenders anyway.)


Meaning, you can repeat as many triples or quads as you want, as many times as you want, as long as they're in combination?
Or would you still limit the number of jumps that can be repeated but allow those two chosen repeats to be performed three or more times?
Or OK to repeat as many different triples or quads as you want, but no more than two of each?
I think junior men can be allowed double-double as well, since there is plenty of junior men in developing federations too that can compete. So, just blend the rules. Women can jump 3A in SP and quads in free, men can do doubles. By the look of juniors there is literally no difference in what they can do between 13 and 17. So they should all play by the same rules.

As for jump repeats, I think as long as they are in combos, they can repeat whatever they want. Russian jumping nationals tournament has amazing mega combos delivered and it is totally a loss that we can't see that stuff in competitions.
 
As for jump repeats, I think as long as they are in combos, they can repeat whatever they want. Russian jumping nationals tournament has amazing mega combos delivered and it is totally a loss that we can't see that stuff in competitions.
For the "well-balanced free skate," there would need to be some way to prevent skaters from just racking up points on quantity.

If the rules say something like "You can get credit for a maximum of 12 jumps, in a maximum of 6 jumping passes, and two of those passes may be combinations, one which can include 2 or 3 jumps and the other can have unlimited jumps," that would open up that option. But we'd also see skaters doing four or five double toes in a row, if that's easier for them than doing two triples in a row.
 
For the "well-balanced free skate," there would need to be some way to prevent skaters from just racking up points on quantity.

If the rules say something like "You can get credit for a maximum of 12 jumps, in a maximum of 6 jumping passes, and two of those passes may be combinations, one which can include 2 or 3 jumps and the other can have unlimited jumps," that would open up that option. But we'd also see skaters doing four or five double toes in a row, if that's easier for them than doing two triples in a row.
Is that a bad thing? Besides, this is a dream thread. 😍 that's the kind of competiton i'd watch more readily.
 
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I'd like a combo/sequence of multiple jumps 4 or 5 of them. It was possible in the past and it was fun. It was also quite creative in some cases
They do that in artistic roller skating. It's quite impressive, especially when you consider wheels are heavier than blades and jumps take more strength. (Their spins can also go on longer with more changes of position. And their pairs lifts can be held overhead longer with more revolutions and more changes of position for the woman, but those are other topics.)
 
I don't mind 2A 2A. It's sort of cathartic as a long victory-combo at the end of a clean skate. It can be powerful to me. It's rare in women's skating anyways. +3T-2T is an underwhelming closer IMO.

I also wouldn't mind seeing the multi-jump sequences. Though I'm not sure I see how they're not even more offensive in "clunkiness" compared to the 2A 2A.

None of these are particularly aesthetically pleasing to me:



It requires perfect execution to be effective IMO (3rd clip is a 5-jump pass):



I find her axel transitions are satisfying. More expressive than -3Ts. Everyone loves the -3Lo but they're rarely executed well. Even if rotated they lose so much speed.
 
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