2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

[SnowWhite]

To me, it's very clear that the US federation has given a clear indication that the results of the national competition will not be the sole determinant of who goes to the Olympics or Worlds. At least this time, compared to 4 years ago, there is a clear indication that the full body of work will be the deciding factor. It is a bit disconcerting that even the national champion will not have a lock for a spot on the Oly or World team although I think the champion will certainly earn weighted points with the national win so close to the Olympics. At least skaters know ahead of time and can plan to put in their very best in all competitions. It's kind of exciting that certainly the GP and even the B competitions will hold weight in this decision.

I think that although they aren't officially guaranteed a spot, with 3 spots in ladies, the National Champ will almost certainly be selected. It would be different if there were only one spot.

 

[Moxiejan]

The problem is not were they justified in sending Ashley, but did they apply the selection criteria equally among all ladies and all disciplines. They didn't. It was selective use of the selection criteria which gave off the (deserved) impression of unfairness.

The difference was that Ashley had just had a much stronger Grand Prix season than had D/C. And had won the previous Nationals and done well at Worlds.

 

[ice coverage]

... I think D/C suffered because of Ashley's poor skate. USFSA got such blowback from chopping Mirai that they left pairs and mens alone. I think they would have gotten less blowback if the criteria was applied to all, but Mirai was singled out. I was happy with the pairs teams chosen but do believe the result would have been different. ... ...

The fallacy in this part of your post is that the reality is that the USFS made the announcement of pairs for Sochi (in favor of Z/B) at the same press conference that they made the announcement of ladies for Sochi (in favor of Ashley).

In other words, Z/B already had been (privately) notified of their selection (in advance of the presser) before it would have been possible for USFS to have gotten any public "blowback from chopping Mirai."

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... The problem is not were they justified in sending Ashley, but did they apply the selection criteria equally among all ladies and all disciplines. They didn't. It was selective use of the selection criteria which gave off the (deserved) impression of unfairness. ...

To some extent, you and I have said the same thing.
I am not making a judgment as to whether or not the selection criteria should have meant that USFS should have selected D/C.
But as I said above, my opinion is that the controversy over Ashley might have been slightly diminished if USFS had selected D/C.

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To me, it's very clear that the US federation has given a clear indication that the results of the national competition will not be the sole determinant of who goes to the Olympics or Worlds. At least this time, compared to 4 years ago, there is a clear indication that the full body of work will be the deciding factor. ... At least skaters know ahead of time and can plan to put in their very best in all competitions.....

It is true that compared to four years ago, this time *fans* will have clear awareness that Nats is not the only deciding factor in Olympic selection.

But again, the skaters at 2013 Champs Camp were informed of the selection criteria for Sochi. I hate the term "body of work" (just have a personal distaste for it), but the skaters were informed in advance that when choosing the team for Sochi, the USFS selection committee would consider results from a designated list of events, not just from Nats.

ETA:

I am fine with the concept of taking results other than Nats into consideration. Just hate the terminology of "body of work."​

 

[StitchMonkey]

I was the one who originally used the term "disordered" thinking. Yes, incorrectly; I should have said "illogical" or "unrealistic" thinking. I had been referring to Gracie's statement that she was "taking a break" from skating while still training for her GP events.

I agree that "illogical" or "unrealistic" are likely better choice, especially in a forum... but for what it is worth, that is pretty much how i took your original disordered comment... more illogical than schizophrenic.

- - - Updated - - -

I am so tired of the Gracie talking in the thread. Sadly, one cannot avoid because she is still a competitive skater.
Ironically, if she retires in a year, would everyone be happy that we don't even mention her name anymore?

I discovered some decent trained young skaters in the past two JGP. Both Ting Cui and Angelina Huang seem to have the goods, but I have never heard them before. I really hope we can spend more time on discussing new blood. I am also so tired of the back and forth talking of Mirai, Courtney...With everything repeated N times

Of course not. I am sure we would still speak of her fondly and frequently.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

To me, it's very clear that the US federation has given a clear indication that the results of the national competition will not be the sole determinant of who goes to the Olympics or Worlds.

While true, that doesn't mean that the USFSA won't adhere to the results of Nationals, either. Exceptions have been made for injury byes, a higher placing skater not eligible at the time of selection (i.e. Jason over Vincent), and a skater having vastly superior international results over her peers (i.e. Ashley over Mirai). I don't see a skater being elevated to the team on the basis of international results unless they make the GPF and perform reasonably well there. If a skater medals at Nationals, only a good result at another Tier I event (2017 Worlds, 2018 GPF) should be considered among possible replacements. I don't think Ashley or Mariah's placements were strong enough at Worlds to get such consideration.

 

[ice coverage]

While true, that doesn't mean that the USFSA won't adhere to the results of Nationals, either. Exceptions have been made for injury byes, a higher placing skater not eligible at the time of selection (i.e. Jason over Vincent), and a skater having vastly superior international results over her peers (i.e. Ashley over Mirai). I don't see a skater being elevated to the team on the basis of international results unless they make the GPF and perform reasonably well there. If a skater medals at Nationals, only a good result at another Tier I event (2017 Worlds, 2018 GPF) should be considered among possible replacements. I don't think Ashley or Mariah's placements were strong enough at Worlds to get such consideration.

Some of us are of the opinion that Jason's selection for 2017 Worlds was an example of legitimate application of the selection criteria -- and that Jason's selection had nothing to do with Vincent's lack of senior minimums at the time of Nats.

An alternate theory that is no better and no worse than your theory that Vincent's then-lack of senior minimums was the reason that he was not be selected.

USFS never gave an explanation as to why it chose Jason, so we do not know whether or not Vincent's then-lack of senior minimums was any factor in the decision.

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Emily Hughes got married yesterday .

https://twitter.com/SarahHughesNY/status/904384381288148992​

Best wishes to the newlyweds.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

Could we switch topics and talk about some other US skaters? Some of them seem to be MIA. Some seem to be moving forward.

Francesca chierra: if I'm not mistaken this girl now has a senior B. Good for her. Her summer must've been impressive to the usfsa because she's never been in the top 10 at nationals.

Tyler Pierce: please, does someone have an update?? Is she still injured?

Hannah miller: I really feel for this girl, especially after hearing, "I feel like I'm working my butt off and not getting anywhere" in the kiss-and-cry on the Grand Prix circuit.

Vivian lee : ????? Still a junior? Still injured?

Thoughts?

 

[frida80]

Could we switch topics and talk about some other US skaters? Some of them seem to be MIA. Some seem to be moving forward.

Francesca chierra: if I'm not mistaken this girl now has a senior B. Good for her. Her summer must've been impressive to the usfsa because she's never been in the top 10 at nationals.

Tyler Pierce: please, does someone have an update?? Is she still injured?

Hannah miller: I really feel for this girl, especially after hearing, "I feel like I'm working my butt off and not getting anywhere" in the kiss-and-cry on the Grand Prix circuit.

Vivian lee : ????? Still a junior? Still injured?

Thoughts?

Vivian is competing in golden west this weekend. Her shirt was clean. She still doesn't have her triple triple back. But she's improved a lot.

 

[Moxiejan]

Vivian lee : ????? Still a junior? Still injured?

Vivian Le is listed as one of the substitutes for Nepela in the Challenger series.

So she's competing as a senior.

 

[musicfan80]

The difference was that Ashley had just had a much stronger Grand Prix season than had D/C. And had won the previous Nationals and done well at Worlds.

You can also argue that another difference was that it was likely that the U.S. would use a second lady in the Team Event. USFS may have felt that Ashley would have been a more dependable pick. It was obvious that the U.S. was only going to use one pairs team in the team event.

 

[ice coverage]

The thing is.... i actually think that if Riverdance had not happened John and Caydee would have been sent, and had Jason done a more normal for Jason skate and not "Riverdance" Max would have gone as well. The problem was I think Max had a stronger argument to go then Caydee and John...and sending them, but not Max would have looked even messier. So they just tried to be somewhat consistent. Who knows what could have happened... but i have wondered this for awhile. ...

I had overlooked the first part of your post, and now will belatedly respond.

You are misremembering the chronology of events at 2014 Nats.

The announcement of pairs, ladies, and dancers selected for Sochi already had taken place midday on Sunday BEFORE the men's FS took place on Sunday afternoon.

The already-announced decision to send Z/B to Sochi instead of D/C could not have had anything to do with the success of Jason's Riverdance at Nats. And could not have had anything to do with the FS (and overall) results at Nats for Max or Jason.

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Could we switch topics and talk about some other US skaters? Some of them seem to be MIA. Some seem to be moving forward.

Francesca chierra: if I'm not mistaken this girl now has a senior B. Good for her. Her summer must've been impressive to the usfsa because she's never been in the top 10 at nationals.

... Vivian lee : ????? Still a junior? Still injured?

Thoughts?

If you are referring to Vivian Le, she competed in Senior Ladies last night at Golden West.

I can't tell whether you are aware that Chiera competed at the Philadelphia Summer International.
(If you are interested in details, I will let you look then up for yourself. I do not remember her placement or scores.)

Vivian Le is listed as one of the substitutes for Nepela in the Challenger series.

So she's competing as a senior.

Vivian also is listed as a sub for three 2017 JGPs ... so internationally, it is possible that she could compete as both Junior and Senior.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

I had overlooked the first part of your post, and now will belatedly respond.

You are misremembering the chronology of events at 2014 Nats.

The announcement of pairs, ladies, and dancers selected for Sochi already had taken place midday on Sunday BEFORE the men's FS took place on Sunday afternoon.

The already-announced decision to send Z/B to Sochi instead of D/C could not have had anything to do with the success of Jason's Riverdance at Nats. And could not have had anything to do with the FS (and overall) results at Nats for Max or Jason.

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If you are referring to Vivian Le, she competed in Senior Ladies last night at Golden West.

I can't tell whether you are aware that Chiera competed at the Philadelphia Summer International.
(If you are interested in details, I will let you look then up for yourself. I do not remember her placement or scores.)



Vivian also is listed as a sub for three 2017 JGPs ... so internationally, it is possible that she could compete as both Junior and Senior.

Does she have any definite assignments yet?

Oh, I forgot that US Classic is next week! We'll see some big names and some lesser known names too! (I like rooting for the underdog) And the Mariah/Mirai battle begins!

 

[Blades of Passion]

You can also argue that another difference was that it was likely that the U.S. would use a second lady in the Team Event. USFS may have felt that Ashley would have been a more dependable pick. It was obvious that the U.S. was only going to use one pairs team in the team event.

The U.S. didn't need to use Ashley for the team event in 2014, especially for the SP, where Gracie had been better than Ashley all season long. She was just there to get the team medal, because people felt her career deserved it, and because of endorsements.

That would be amazing. Mirai has never before positioned herself as a higher scorer than Ashley. But I think Ashley has too many endorsements to be left off the team event. Yes, I believe endorsements matter. But I want Mirai on the team event, personally.

Mirai positioned herself as a higher scorer than Ashley all the way up through 2011. Then her career slid down big time, while Ashley's rose big time. We could see another switch this season. I also believe endorsements matter, but Mirai has been to the Olympics (doing very well in 2010) and there is a big Cinderella story narrative in place if she continues to rise this season. Ashley already gets to call herself "an Olympic medalist" from 2014, now it's Mirai and Karen's turn. Ashley has said her goal for this season is an individual medal at the Olympics anyway. Perhaps she should focus on that.

 

[ice coverage]

Following up re Emily Hughes' wedding yesterday:

Christine Brennan posted a group photo of some wedding guests.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BYl7_p1FOf6/?taken-by=cbrennansports (posted Sep 3)

Among them were Phil Hersh, Brennan, Donna DeVarona, JoJo Starbuck, Paul Wylie, Richard Dwyer, and more.​

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Does she have any definite assignments yet?

Oh, I forgot that US Classic is next week! We'll see some big names and some lesser known names too! (I like rooting for the underdog) And the Mariah/Mirai battle begins!

AFAIK, Vivian does not have any definite international assignments yet. But the season is young .

:agree: Yes, US Classic should be great. Mirai, Mariah, Karen, and more. (BTW, I too like rooting for underdogs. )

And don't forget US Challenge Skate at the same time -- for junior and novice skaters. (No entry lists published yet for Challenge Skate, AFAIK.)

 

[SkaterX]

I really think Starr should have been on the senior GP this year. I was so impressed that she went for the 3A yesterday.

 

[R.D.]

Let's allow her to progress at her own pace - let's not repeat this AGAIN please.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I really think Starr should have been on the senior GP this year.

I can't agree, there is too much about her skating that needs to be fixed still. They need to totally change her Flip and Lutz entrances, because it's going to be disastrous for her if they don't. The lutz especially is one of the worst fluzes I've seen in some time.

 

[StitchMonkey]

I can't agree, there is too much about her skating that needs to be fixed still. They need to totally change her Flip and Lutz entrances, because it's going to be disastrous for her if they don't. The lutz especially is one of the worst fluzes I've seen in some time.

If anything that is an argument for her to move up to seniors as she would not be forced to do a lutz in the short. The required jumps for juniors is just very odd to me.

 

[SkaterX]

I can't agree, there is too much about her skating that needs to be fixed still. They need to totally change her Flip and Lutz entrances, because it's going to be disastrous for her if they don't. The lutz especially is one of the worst fluzes I've seen in some time.

I've seen plenty of flutzes on the senior level. I guess we can agree to disagree. More generally, I think the US keeps female skaters at the junior level for way too long. Starr is already 16 and I think she has what it takes but that's just my opinion.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Another 3A from Miri... this one in her program with show lighting.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BYmSFmYl8Ji/