2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

[moriel]

I´m honestly not buying that 3A until she manages to land it clean-ish in competition with nonnegative GOE. Same goes for all the quads.
Heck, i´m not buying those 3As and Quads unless the skaters manage to land them with some consistency (still heartbroken about Tukt and her one and only)

 

[Bluediamonds09]

Is it just that it’s really really hard to add transitions to your program? I’m not a skater so I wouldn’t know. I’m just curious because the Russian girls ( and to some extent, the Japanese girls) can do transitions in and out of basically everything, but the US girls really stalk their elements. Of course, Ashley and Gracie and Mirai are from a slightly different era where transitions didn’t matter as much as now. Maybe that’s it?

 

[andromache]

Thinking about it - I'm a little concerned about Karen choreographing her own LP right before Skate Canada. I'm pretty confident she can put together and learn a program quickly, but really - USFS should be ensuring that the national champion has top tier choreography from a top tier choreographer. Karen is very good at interpreting music of different kinds, and I think she's very flexible in regards to the types of programs she is good at - Shae Lynn, Lori, Jeff Buttle, David Wilson, etc. would all probably be capable of providing Karen with a great final product that will elevate her skating and performances.

I admire Karen's grit and determination to do this for herself, but I would think USFS would want to be more hands-on in ensuring their national champion has OGM-worthy preparation and packaging during an Olympic season (regardless of the fact that she probably has no chance at OGM, she still managed 4th at Worlds last year, which theoretically should posit her as a medal contender).

Nathan's team seems to be taking his prospects much more seriously, with two OGM-worthy programs from two of the best choreographers in skating.

It just gives the impression that she doesn't need the top-tier everything because she's not an OGM contender. Which is exactly the kind of impression that will discourage anyone from thinking of you as a medal contender at all. Like, I think if any Russian lady not named Evgenia Medvedeva or Japanese lady was choreographing her own programs for herself, it would definitely be sending a message that the federation wasn't backing her up.

When Gracie Gold was coach-less in 2013, USFS made the Gracie and Frank coaching relationship happen, because they very much cared about Gracie going into the Olympic season; long-term that relationship obviously soured, but for a few years it was beneficial and productive, and it definitely elevated Gracie in the eyes of international judges. If Karen is suddenly program-less, USFS should be getting her together with an amazing choreographer.

I just think it's a bad look. Perception matters.

 

[frida80]

Thinking about it - I'm a little concerned about Karen choreographing her own LP right before Skate Canada. I'm pretty confident she can put together and learn a program quickly, but really - USFS should be ensuring that the national champion has top tier choreography from a top tier choreographer. Karen is very good at interpreting music of different kinds, and I think she's very flexible in regards to the types of programs she is good at - Shae Lynn, Lori, Jeff Buttle, David Wilson, etc. would all probably be capable of providing Karen with a great final product that will elevate her skating and performances.

I admire Karen's grit and determination to do this for herself, but I would think USFS would want to be more hands-on in ensuring their national champion has OGM-worthy preparation and packaging during an Olympic season (regardless of the fact that she probably has no chance at OGM, she still managed 4th at Worlds last year, which theoretically should posit her as a medal contender).

Nathan's team seems to be taking his prospects much more seriously, with two OGM-worthy programs from two of the best choreographers in skating.

It just gives the impression that she doesn't need the top-tier everything because she's not an OGM contender. Which is exactly the kind of impression that will discourage anyone from thinking of you as a medal contender at all. Like, I think if any Russian lady not named Evgenia Medvedeva or Japanese lady was choreographing her own programs for herself, it would definitely be sending a message that the federation wasn't backing her up.

When Gracie Gold was coach-less in 2013, USFS made the Gracie and Frank coaching relationship happen, because they very much cared about Gracie going into the Olympic season; long-term that relationship obviously soured, but for a few years it was beneficial and productive, and it definitely elevated Gracie in the eyes of international judges. If Karen is suddenly program-less, USFS should be getting her together with an amazing choreographer.

I just think it's a bad look. Perception matters.

You make a great point, but you've answered your own question. The reason Nathan and the Shibsibs have high quality programs is because they are expected to medal. It's not just Karen, all the top US ladies have program issues this year. Karen should have been going to Lori, David, Jeff, or Shae. But Also Ashley is doing MR for the third time. Mariah ditched multiple short programs and kept her old old short, while having a lukewarm received WSS FS.

What I'm seeing is a lot of disinvestment in ladies. In 2016, it felt like USFS was highly involved with the progress of top ladies. Now it feels like they don't care as much now that Gracie is gone.

 

[mrrice]

Is there any chance that Mariah Bell will go back to her East Of Eden Free Program? I remember when Johnny Weir went back to Otonol after winning nationals with Wonderland. If her new LP isn't working for her, maybe she could go back Titanic. I'd hate to see her be a one hit wonder but, I'm worried that she doesn't have the vehicle to get herself on the podium at Nationals.

 

[bevybean]

Just catching up on the forums as I've been unable to check in for a bit...So, my 2 cents on a few things:

1. I started my own little spreadsheet to track scores over the season. Counting only Challenger series and the one GP event (anyone with 2 events, I took the higher score), I was surprised to see that Bradie Tennell has the highest score so for out of the US ladies by roughly 8 points. 2nd and 3rd are Mariah Bell and Angela Wang. I'm not saying that those are my picks for Olympic spots, but I think it implies that a lot is up in the air. Ashley hasn't skated yet, so there is no data. However, I think if you look over the past couple of years, she has the best track record. In some ways her last season could be seen as better than any of the others considering that Karen went from US Champ to 12th at 4CC before taking 4th at World's. I love Karen, but I feel like you never know what you are going to get.

2. In terms of improving the US field: I wonder how many talented girls are skating at tiny rinks and just never make it on anyone's radar? We have a couple at ours who just went to regionals. While they didn't place very high, I wonder if they had higher level coaching if it would have made a difference or not??? Cost is prohibitive, but also, not everyone can just pick up and move across the country to work with a better coach. Or drive two hours every weekend to get extra coaching or whatever. I appreciate the benefit to having all the good skaters in one place so they can compete against each other, etc. But, in the US where you really can't get help paying for anything until the Juv level, it's not really reasonably to think that all the good skaters need to move to one of 2 places in order to get the attention they deserve.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I admire Karen's grit and determination to do this for herself, but I would think USFS would want to be more hands-on in ensuring their national champion has OGM-worthy preparation and packaging during an Olympic season (regardless of the fact that she probably has no chance at OGM, she still managed 4th at Worlds last year, which theoretically should posit her as a medal contender).

Part of me agrees with you, but I also think that the overall quality of the program isn't all that important these days. If she can execute her elements cleanly, she will do very well either with a good program or a great one. In some way, it might be better for her to do her own choreography so she can add transitions and movements that she is most comfortable doing so she can focus more on rotating her jumps.

 

[bevybean]

Part of me agrees with you, but I also think that the overall quality of the program isn't all that important these days. If she can execute her elements cleanly, she will do very well either with a good program or a great one. In some way, it might be better for her to do her own choreography so she can add transitions and movements that she is most comfortable doing so she can focus more on rotating her jumps.

I wonder if she is getting an assist from a choreographer as well? Rather than being completely on her own with it. I heard conflicting info on whether Karen choreographed her On Golden Pond program or if someone else did. I assumed that meant she did most of it, but had someone helping her.

 

[andromache]

Is there any chance that Mariah Bell will go back to her East Of Eden Free Program? I remember when Johnny Weir went back to Otonol after winning nationals with Wonderland. If her new LP isn't working for her, maybe she could go back Titanic. I'd hate to see her be a one hit wonder but, I'm worried that she doesn't have the vehicle to get herself on the podium at Nationals.

The vehicle might matter internationally, but it won't at Nationals, where the focus will 100% be on skating clean, no matter how good/bad your program is.

 

[frida80]

I wonder if she is getting an assist from a choreographer as well? Rather than being completely on her own with it. I heard conflicting info on whether Karen choreographed her On Golden Pond program or if someone else did. I assumed that meant she did most of it, but had someone helping her.

No. She did that one on her own. https://instagram.com/p/BDwjgn0oDyP/

Karen has been painting for a long time, so assume she’s a very artistic person.

This is the dancer she was inspired by. http://youtu.be/rgwGSQRb0YU

She was really happy when she finally nailed it. https://instagram.com/p/BPfWBfRltgx/

I know she went to Marina to help improve her footwork sequence for her FS. That’s as far as I heard.

At the time no one cared because she wasn’t expected to challenge. She went back to chorgraphers this year and it’s clear something wasn’t clicking. I think she and Shae would be a good fit. More so than Lori.

 

[skylark]

implies that a lot is up in the air. Ashley hasn't skated yet, so there is no data. However, I think if you look over the past couple of years, she has the best track record. In some ways her last season could be seen as better than any of the others considering that Karen went from US Champ to 12th at 4CC before taking 4th at World's. I love Karen, but I feel like you never know what you are going to get.

:agree: Well said.

 

[mrrice]

I also think we need to keep an eye on Polina. I know she wasn't great at her first event but, Nationals are in her backyard and she'll be on home ice in front of her friends and family. Including Me....

 

[skylark]

Yes, yes, I know, Mirai has a very very long set up into her triple axel, and has a characteristic arm switching tic. But you know what? Remember Adam Rippon? He used to have a very very long set up into his triple axel too. It took up the entire rink, and that was only for a solo triple axel. Now he can do them in combination and with footwork into the entry.
Adam in 2009:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdP5oHCjAbk&t=1m15s

Adam in 2016:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trn5AHa8NCA&t=2m40s

Good point. I couldn't help but notice the 7-year gap between your two examples for Adam.

Last night I read an interview Brian Orser did at RC. Speaking of adding a difficult new jump to one's routines, they used to say that for the first year, it would have a bad effect on the rest of the program, because you'd be thinking, I did it! or not. Things have changed since then, but Orser seems to still believe there's quite an effect. Mirai is an example of that.

I really dislike Mirai's very long 3A set up, but the jump itself was beautiful at RC. And when I re-watched her FS, I couldn't help noticing places (notably in "The Sun and Moon" parts) where she should be portraying some of the emotion of the music. I no longer even expect her to do anything with her face, although some relaxation of the focus on jumps would be great. But it looks to me like Jeff Buttle choreographed that section so that she could do her emoting and musical interpretation with her movements. I'd love to see that happen.

Having said all that, I still think Mirai is gaining motivation and excitement for herself by adding the 3A. That's the most important thing, although it's exciting for US women's figure skating too.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I also think we need to keep an eye on Polina. I know she wasn't great at her first event but, Nationals are in her backyard and she'll be on home ice in front of her friends and family.

Agreed. Most importantly, she knows what she needs to do to bring her best at Nationals, as she has done it on numerous occasions before.

 

[bevybean]

I also think we need to keep an eye on Polina. I know she wasn't great at her first event but, Nationals are in her backyard and she'll be on home ice in front of her friends and family. Including Me....

I fully expect to see Polina get better with every competition this season, so definitely would not count her out at all. Not just because Nationals is in her back yard. She has a good competition mindset and knows better than to let these first couple competitions distract her or de-motivate her. I would bet she sees it as being just part of the process of coming back.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Just catching up on the forums as I've been unable to check in for a bit...So, my 2 cents on a few things:

1. I started my own little spreadsheet to track scores over the season. Counting only Challenger series and the one GP event (anyone with 2 events, I took the higher score), I was surprised to see that Bradie Tennell has the highest score so for out of the US ladies by roughly 8 points. 2nd and 3rd are Mariah Bell and Angela Wang. I'm not saying that those are my picks for Olympic spots, but I think it implies that a lot is up in the air. Ashley hasn't skated yet, so there is no data. However, I think if you look over the past couple of years, she has the best track record. In some ways her last season could be seen as better than any of the others considering that Karen went from US Champ to 12th at 4CC before taking 4th at World's. I love Karen, but I feel like you never know what you are going to get.

I actually am starting to wonder if Karen is one of those people who thrives on pressure. It seems the more pressure she is under the better she does. Nationals and Worlds are far more pressure, but she does well at them, while a 4CC an event that sadly even fans mock for its lack of importance, she never does great. Also her best GP performance might have been her debut... again when the pressure is really on.

So even if Karen does not do great in the GP this fall, I think she could easily thrive on the pressure at nationals and for that matter the Olympics as well. It seems with her the bigger the stakes the for it fires her up.

 

[KatGrace1925]

You make a great point, but you've answered your own question. The reason Nathan and the Shibsibs have high quality programs is because they are expected to medal. It's not just Karen, all the top US ladies have program issues this year. Karen should have been going to Lori, David, Jeff, or Shae. But Also Ashley is doing MR for the third time. Mariah ditched multiple short programs and kept her old old short, while having a lukewarm received WSS FS.

What I'm seeing is a lot of disinvestment in ladies. In 2016, it felt like USFS was highly involved with the progress of top ladies. Now it feels like they don't care as much now that Gracie is gone.

I think the USFS is defeatist on this, they very much counted on Gracie as their only shot to get a high placement in a top tier event, by high placement I mean the gold medal. They invested quite a bit in her and have in general been foolish with other young talent that they should have been developing as well. Now Gracie's out and I don't think they care as much about ladies because their attention is on Nathan Chen who is now seen as the only shot the US has at getting a gold medal in figure skating. I just feel their defeatists about most talent, and have been quite terrible at developing skaters. They wait for skaters to develop on their own and then elevate them as stars even without them having to prove themselves. The federation is a mess.

 

[ssffww]

I actually am starting to wonder if Karen is one of those people who thrives on pressure. It seems the more pressure she is under the better she does. Nationals and Worlds are far more pressure, but she does well at them, while a 4CC an event that sadly even fans mock for its lack of importance, she never does great. Also her best GP performance might have been her debut... again when the pressure is really on.

So even if Karen does not do great in the GP this fall, I think she could easily thrive on the pressure at nationals and for that matter the Olympics as well. It seems with her the bigger the stakes the for it fires her up.

But if the USFSA sticks to its announcement that a skater's entire body of work will be taken into account in naming the team this year it won't help Karen's case if she only does well at nationals.

 

[loopy1217]

Part of me agrees with you, but I also think that the overall quality of the program isn't all that important these days. If she can execute her elements cleanly, she will do very well either with a good program or a great one. In some way, it might be better for her to do her own choreography so she can add transitions and movements that she is most comfortable doing so she can focus more on rotating her jumps.

I agree! I think they can’t say this is a horrible idea if they have yet to see it. I think USFS might step up or provide support after Skate Canada this week.

I think the timing for Japan Open(earlier this month) that led her to make this bold decision is a factor why she choose to choreograph herself this time...at least for now. I mean who else is available in this short timeframe? And I think working with two choreographers for two different FS makes her realize it’s hard to find something she is comfortable to skate to in this important season.

Fingers crossed for all our US ladies!

 

[stella luna]

I think the USFS is defeatist on this, they very much counted on Gracie as their only shot to get a high placement in a top tier event, by high placement I mean the gold medal. They invested quite a bit in her and have in general been foolish with other young talent that they should have been developing as well. Now Gracie's out and I don't think they care as much about ladies because their attention is on Nathan Chen who is now seen as the only shot the US has at getting a gold medal in figure skating. I just feel their defeatists about most talent, and have been quite terrible at developing skaters. They wait for skaters to develop on their own and then elevate them as stars even without them having to prove themselves. The federation is a mess.

I think you have a point. The years that Michelle, who transformed herself into the total package by blood, sweat and sheer force of will, dominated the ladies there was little need to be developing new talent.