2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

[Mrs. P]

Does the USFS actually do anything? Like, at all? In Russia, they travel around to smaller rinks and look for talent. When they spot that young talent, they enroll them in special schools with other figure skaters who all train together and pay much of their way. It seems like the USFS just waits for some wunderkid to show a modicum of talent, sets them up with commercial deals, proclaims them the next world medalist, and then seems shocked an unprepared child is unable to handle the misguided expectations of a nation. Say what you want about TSL being catty, but they're spot on when they say the USFS is tired and letting the sport fall to pieces in America.

Woah, hold it there. While there is a lot USFS could work on and the system it has is currently flawed, but to say they don't do ANYTHING is really not right or fair either. Just look at their 990 (USFS is a nonprofit), they spent about $5.9 million in 2015 toward athlete support. It's not a ton of money, but it's certainly more than "nothing."

Also, there are efforts right now to send novice skaters to international competitions, such as Asian Trophy, which isn't cheap. And on the men side, they actually sent two novice-level men nationally to JGP for the experience.

Again, not saying USFS is awesome or they aren't without criticism, but I take issue with the claim it is "letting the sport fall to pieces" when they're sending MORE skaters to MORE competitions.

I'd like to point out that if you want to be part of the solution, a lot of skaters have Go Fund Me accounts and there are foundations, like Michael Weiss, you can support to provide additional funding to skaters.

 

[sross43]

Woah, hold it there. While there is a lot USFS could work on and the system it has is currently flawed, but to say they don't do ANYTHING is really not right or fair either. Just look at their 990 (USFS is a nonprofit), they spent about $5.9 million in 2015 toward athlete support. It's not a ton of money, but it's certainly more than "nothing."

Also, there are efforts right now to send novice skaters to international competitions, such as Asian Trophy, which isn't cheap. And on the men side, they actually sent two novice-level men nationally to JGP for the experience.

Again, not saying USFS is awesome or they aren't without criticism, but I take issue with the claim it is "letting the sport fall to pieces" when they're sending MORE skaters to MORE competitions.

I'd like to point out that if you want to be part of the solution, a lot of skaters have Go Fund Me accounts and there are foundations, like Michael Weiss, you can support to provide additional funding to skaters.

But if they're spending this money to send skaters they haven't developed it's just a waste of money. I don't doubt the USFS's ability to hitch their metaphorical wagon to a rising star and help them along, but the problem is they're not helping make the stars. Ask any person who isn't a die-hard skating fan to name the most talented US lady they can remember. They would probably say Sasha or Michelle. Skaters who competed over 10 years ago. We can't look at this Olympic and world medal drought and say that the USFS is doing a good job.

 

[Mrs. P]

But if they're spending this money to send skaters they haven't developed it's just a waste of money. I don't doubt the USFS's ability to hitch their metaphorical wagon to a rising star and help them along, but the problem is they're not helping make the stars. Ask any person who isn't a die-hard skating fan to name the most talented US lady they can remember. They would probably say Sasha or Michelle. Skaters who competed over 10 years ago. We can't look at this Olympic and world medal drought and say that the USFS is doing a good job.

Or maybe there isn't a star to be seen. Russia had its drought too after Irina Slutskaya. Russian Ice Dance has had its ups and downs after dominating the discipline for so long. While the Japanese ladies are doing well, the Japanese men's depth is shallowing beyond Shoma/Yuzuru.

Again, not saying USFS isn't without fault or criticism, but I just can't buy that it's all on them we don't have competitive ladies. Sometimes nations/teams go through valleys of talent.

I also take issue that USFS isn't doing anything to develop young skaters. There's the bonus-point program for triples being done at the lower level. Again, they sent Alissa Liu and Audrey Chin to Asian Trophy this summer. They've sent Novice-level men to JGP. It's going to take some time for the investment to pay off.

 

[NAOTMAA]

I doubt the USFSA ever thought they would be in this position. They had for five and half decades of unquestionable success that who would have thought in the blink of an eye it would evaporate after 2006.
Just out of interest here are the American ladies who medaled at junior worlds from 2007-2012:

2007
Gold: Caroline Zhang
Silver: Mirai Nagasu
Bronze: Ashley Wagner

2008
Gold: Rachael Flatt
Silver: Caroline Zhang
Bronze: Mirai Nagasu

2009
Silver: Caroline Zhang
Bronze: Ashley Wagner

2010
Silver: Agnes Zawadzki

2011
Bronze: Agnes Zawadzki

2012
Silver: Gracie Gold

These were the girls who were suppose to carry on the tradition and were hyped as the next big things. For brief moments it appeared they would live up to the expectations but of course for various reasons that we all know all failed to do so. Nearly all of them except perhaps Caroline and Agnes had moments where all seemed well for US ladies only for the bubble to bust just as fast. Ashley via her world silver 2 years ago being the most successful
US hasn't had a junior world medalist in the last 5 years! Unless there are a few gems who will rise to the occasion as seniors and do better then they did as juniors it looks like it will only get worse.

 

[curtsies]

Hey guys,

I'm pretty new to the community so I'm not sure if this is the right place to post, but does anyone have any insight about who we'll send to the internationals that haven't assigned skaters to yet? i.e. Tallinn trophy, Warsaw cup, etc.

In particular, would any of them give more byes to the senior ladies trying to qualify for nationals but have to go to sectionals?
The people that I know of who have byes to sectionals but not nationals are Starr, Franchesca, Courtney, Tessa, Ashley Lin, Emmy, Kaitlyn Nguyen , Paige, Livvy Shilling, Angela Wang, and Megan Wessenberg.

There's so many good skaters competing at sectionals this year and I'm hoping to see more of the ones that I like qualify

 

[Mrs. P]

Hey guys,

I'm pretty new to the community so I'm not sure if this is the right place to post, but does anyone have any insight about who we'll send to the internationals that haven't assigned skaters to yet? i.e. Tallinn trophy, Warsaw cup, etc.

In particular, would any of them give more byes to the senior ladies trying to qualify for nationals but have to go to sectionals?
The people that I know of who have byes to sectionals but not nationals are Starr, Franchesca, Courtney, Tessa, Ashley Lin, Emmy, Kaitlyn Nguyen , Paige, Livvy Shilling, Angela Wang, and Megan Wessenberg.

There's so many good skaters competing at sectionals this year and I'm hoping to see more of the ones that I like qualify

Courtney Hicks has been assigned to Warsaw Cup, so that's one less person in the talent-packed Pacific Coast Sectionals.

 

[stella luna]

I doubt the USFSA ever thought they would be in this position. They had for five and half decades of unquestionable success that who would have thought in the blink of an eye it would evaporate after 2006.
Just out of interest here are the American ladies who medaled at junior worlds from 2007-2012:

2007
Gold: Caroline Zhang
Silver: Mirai Nagasu
Bronze: Ashley Wagner

2008
Gold: Rachael Flatt
Silver: Caroline Zhang
Bronze: Mirai Nagasu

2009
Silver: Caroline Zhang
Bronze: Ashley Wagner

2010
Silver: Agnes Zawadzki

2011
Bronze: Agnes Zawadzki

2012
Silver: Gracie Gold

These were the girls who were suppose to carry on the tradition and were hyped as the next big things. For brief moments it appeared they would live up to the expectations but of course for various reasons that we all know all failed to do so. Nearly all of them except perhaps Caroline and Agnes had moments where all seemed well for US ladies only for the bubble to bust just as fast. Ashley via her world silver 2 years ago being the most successful
US hasn't had a junior world medalist in the last 5 years! Unless there are a few gems who will rise to the occasion as seniors and do better then they did as juniors it looks like it will only get worse.

Well, in this case, the "next big thing" is the next Michelle Kwan. Big skates to fill. Huge.

 

[sross43]

Well, in this case, the "next big thing" is the next Michelle Kwan. Big skates to fill. Huge.

Michelle is our next rising star, you guys. #Kwan2k18 We all saw those jumps on intagram.

 

[skatinggold]

Michelle is our next rising star, you guys. #Kwan2k18 We all saw those jumps on intagram.

I think michelle can medal at the olympics if she returned.. Her PCS will be trumping everyone!

 

[SnowWhite]

Does the USFS actually do anything? Like, at all? In Russia, they travel around to smaller rinks and look for talent. When they spot that young talent, they enroll them in special schools with other figure skaters who all train together and pay much of their way. It seems like the USFS just waits for some wunderkid to show a modicum of talent, sets them up with commercial deals, proclaims them the next world medalist, and then seems shocked an unprepared child is unable to handle the misguided expectations of a nation. Say what you want about TSL being catty, but they're spot on when they say the USFS is tired and letting the sport fall to pieces in America.

Are there things the Russian system does better than the USFSA? Absolutely. But there are also important differences to keep in mind if you're going to compare them. For one, at the moment figure skating is an incredibly popular sport/hobby for young girls, which leads to a much larger pool of talent. Now of course, part of that is on the USFSA to find ways to market the sport better, but a bigger pool gives you the opportunity to pick out the most talented ones. This gets talked about a lot in the context of the Russian men. Figure skating is much less popular among boys in Russia and you see that it doesn't dominate in men's skating the same way at all. Most of the current Russian men (seniors anyway) are kind of headcases, so it's not like US athletes are the only ones who struggle to deliver.

Another thing is simply that, overall depth has improved for a lot of countries, so it's much less likely for the US to dominate ladies like it did at one time (which isn't to say they haven't fallen behind, but just that right now there are going to be very strong women from a number of countries to contend with, even if the USFSA does everything right).

And while I'm not saying that the US fed couldn't do more to support young athletes, there are also limits on the amount of money available for that, and that isn't necessarily something the fed has control over. Some countries will give more funding to athletes than others. Personally, I have no details on the financial situation in this case, but I'm just saying you can't assume that the amount of finding offered in Russia is necessarily a realistic option in another country.

 

[R.D.]

I guess I'm looking more at systemic issues with the US women. Lacking mental toughness is one thing - not sure that's something that can be taught to be honest - BUT, is it a coincidence that so many US ladies seem to be dealing with UR issues?

 

[ice coverage]

... I also take issue that USFS isn't doing anything to develop young skaters. There's the bonus-point program for triples being done at the lower level. Again, they sent Alissa Liu and Audrey Chin to Asian Trophy this summer. They've sent Novice-level men to JGP. It's going to take some time for the investment to pay off.

:agree: In fact, USFS sent a total of four young ladies to Asian Open Trophy this summer.

Hanna Harrell and Stephanie Ciarochi, in addition to Alysa Liu and Audrey Shin.

ETA:

Oh, now I see ... maybe you were focused on the two ladies who competed in Advanced Novice at Asian Open? They were Alysa and Stephanie. (With Hanna and Audrey competing in Junior Ladies there.)​

---

Re the SoCal Interclub Invitational a few weeks ago:

- Am I the last to know that the official results, including protocols, finally are available online? (If the link already was posted elsewhere on GS, sorry that I missed it.)

http://www.socalinterclub.org/2017 invitational results/index.html​

- And the SoCal site now has a group photo of 2017 Invitational winners, including Ashley Wagner and Alysa Liu.
Plus another photo of Ashley for winning the award for Most Outstanding Performance.

http://www.socalinterclub.org/invitational.htm​

---

In the latest blog from Phillip Mills, he writes about "The Artistic Process" of his work with ladies at a range of levels. Illustrated with some great photos.

Leah Kosaka, No Test
Noelle Cheon, Pre-Juvenile
Chloe Li, Intermediate
Sophie Abrams, Junior
Angela Wang, Senior
Ashley Wagner, Senior

https://www.phillipmillschoreographer.com/single-post/2017/10/23/The-Artistic-Process (Oct 23)​

---

Good luck to Karen, Ashley, and Courtney at Skate Canada International this week :yay:.

 

[Globetrotter]

I guess I'm looking more at systemic issues with the US women. Lacking mental toughness is one thing - not sure that's something that can be taught to be honest - BUT, is it a coincidence that so many US ladies seem to be dealing with UR issues?

If it is simply something technical, I am sure it would have been easily fixed. There are enough tech and jump coaches I am sure. Unfortunately, the mental thing is something that can't be easily taught and to an extent, the fed has to manage some of those expectations on skaters. Tara for all her smiley expression was a tough as nails competitor. Michelle was also not the most talented skater tech wise. We probably keep thinking of Michelle as having loads of artistry but I think it is also too easy to overlook her strong basics and sophisticated footwork (i.e. strong basic SS) and also her work ethics and great competitive nerves that held up under duress. My observation as a non US person is that the all American lady skater tends to have more focus on the artistic package but tech and particularly basic SS are less emphasised. And there seems to be this expectation that the ladies must all WIN BIG. Gracie Gold has everything - strong SS, good tech, good packaging but alas, the mental aspect was not there and too much was heaped on her with overwrought expectations.

 

[creaturelover]

Look at Yuna Kim. She's an Olympic Champion, A 2 time World Champion, 3 time Grand Prix Final Champion, and the Champion of her Country throughout her entire senior career. That's a Hall Of Fame career all before her 30th Birthday.

Heck, even before her 25th birthday!

 

[KweenAsada]

Just my 2 cents on the matter.

And a good 2 cents it is!

 

[brightphoton]

Karen's 'On Golden Pond' was one of the best programs last season. I'm impressed by her ability to create something of that caliber and be able to enjoy the level of success that went with it. Deservedly so :agree: I think more skaters should do their own choreography and even though I've always liked her skating I hope she sees success mostly so that she encourages others to follow her footsteps. This is a trend I would love to see catch on.

I'm looking forward to what she's come up with

I agree very much.

1) Based on Karen's previous work, she is her own best choreographer. Look at this section of On Golden Pond, and look at Karen's detail-oriented and evocative choreography. I want to say it matches the music too, but it's difficult to tell with Tara Lipinski and Johnny Weir constantly talking over the performance. Sadly, 80% of Karen's performance is covered by those two's chatter. It's a shame.

Right after she finishes her 3Lutz-3toe, she very deliberately swishes her arms and makes the swan gesture with her hands, and then right afterwards goes into her spin. The 3-3 was such a wow! moment as it is, but Karen made it extra special.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NixhPhyYW4w&t=1m10s

Look at Karen's hands during her step sequence. She's even making swan gestures, as she's executing her step sequence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NixhPhyYW4w&t=1m58s

When she goes into her spiral, you can hear a harp accent. Karen's hands go from clenched to completely open, like a swan spreading its wings. It's so subtle. Karen creates such a lovely image of herself as a swan gliding around on a lake.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NixhPhyYW4w&t=2m55s

2) We should be encouraging our skaters to improve their own artistic abilities. One day, Lori Nichols and Phillip Mills and David Wilson etc are going to retire, and then who will we be left with?

A few years ago, there was a youth choreography workshop or competition, and they put out a few videos. It was okay, and I think they stopped organizing it, but they were on the right track.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBhusabzV1k&t=1m55s

3) I'm not going to show videos examples here, but there are lots of times in which a skater paid big $$$$ for a famous choreographer, and the resulting choreography was mediocre and created without effort. Maybe the famous choreographer has a lot of customers, and he isn't able to give his full thought and vision to each program. Counter-criticism to that is "the choreographer had a better artistic vision, but the skater couldn't do it without sacrificing jumps and technical content. That's why the program looks bad." I say that if you're going to get mediocre choreography as an end result, it's better to get mediocre choreography for free than to pay $10,000 for it.

In any case, this doesn't apply to Karen Chen because she's very musically and artistically inclined, and I fully believe she can make a good program. She could dedicate a lot more time and thought into creating something meaningful to her, and thus, something meaningful to the audience.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

Courtney Hicks has been assigned to Warsaw Cup, so that's one less person in the talent-packed Pacific Coast Sectionals.

So, pacific coast sectionals is going to be fierce this year? Is there a list of the ladies competing there?

 

[frida80]

So, pacific coast sectionals is going to be fierce this year? Is there a list of the ladies competing there?

A lot of the top skaters now have byes. So the contenders are now Angela Wang, Vivian Le, Starr Andrews, Kaitlyn Nyugen, and Tessa Hong. I’m very sure that Angela will get a 2nd Challenger to get her bye.

If it wasn’t for the schedule conflict bye, Polina and Courtney would be included in this group.

 

[LRK]

I´m honestly not buying that 3A until she manages to land it clean-ish in competition with nonnegative GOE. Same goes for all the quads.
Heck, i´m not buying those 3As and Quads unless the skaters manage to land them with some consistency (still heartbroken about Tukt and her one and only)

People keep saying that, and I almost began to wonder if I hallucinated the 3A she landed at WTT - I did not:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wtt2015/wtt2015_Ladies_FS_F_Scores.pdf

 

[andromache]

If it is simply something technical, I am sure it would have been easily fixed. There are enough tech and jump coaches I am sure. Unfortunately, the mental thing is something that can't be easily taught and to an extent, the fed has to manage some of those expectations on skaters. Tara for all her smiley expression was a tough as nails competitor. Michelle was also not the most talented skater tech wise. We probably keep thinking of Michelle as having loads of artistry but I think it is also too easy to overlook her strong basics and sophisticated footwork (i.e. strong basic SS) and also her work ethics and great competitive nerves that held up under duress. My observation as a non US person is that the all American lady skater tends to have more focus on the artistic package but tech and particularly basic SS are less emphasised. And there seems to be this expectation that the ladies must all WIN BIG. Gracie Gold has everything - strong SS, good tech, good packaging but alas, the mental aspect was not there and too much was heaped on her with overwrought expectations.

High pressure and expectations aren't bad for everybody. They happened to be bad for Gracie because of her unique set of circumstances (emerging during the ladies drought) and her particular psychology, but other skaters are perfectly capable to rise to the occasion.

The US junior worlds medalists who have all failed to win a single world senior medal (aside from Ashley) have all had less-than-ideal senior careers primarily because of their jumps. Caroline Zhang, Mirai, Ashley - all had UR problems. Not sure about Agnes off the top of my head. Rachael Flatt got nailed with some UR calls, but she was relatively consistent, even about rotating her jumps, but her skating had other weaknesses. If you want to look at other relatively successful US juniors, Alexe Gilles and Hannah Miller also had chronic UR problems. We already know Polina and Karen have problems with this. Most of the US juniors we see today also struggle with this.

I hope the USFS is properly penalizing URs at lower levels. Alysa Liu and Audrey Shin might be worth getting excited about, based on a list of what they've been able to do in competition, but I don't trust that they aren't URing their jumps.