2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

[BackSpiral]

I don't think Cohen was ever known in her career for having super SS. She had great lines. But that's about it.

No she wasn't. She never had good edges. I also noticed some of her jumps landed on an inside edge instead of the outside edge and she quickly switched the edges. However, it made her jump landings look wonky sometimes.

I don't agree that great lines was all she had. Of course her spin positions and spirals were breathtaking, but she had incredible presentation and musicality even under the early IJS rules. She just made you want to watch her, for me anyways. Looking back over her career, she never really put two clean programs together but a lot of her skates were not that bad. She usually landed most of her planned triple jumps. It was usually just that flaw or two that marred the performance.

 

[SnowWhite]

Really? Someone adds a tano/ripppon to a double jump in combination, and it should be counted as a nothing? Not even a +1?

No wonder Ashley is the only one adding difficulty this way. It's a tough crowd.

GOE doesn't work as one bullet point = +1 though. An arm variation is one bullet point, so it helps, but it doesn't automatically add +1 every time, and it is more impressive to do it one a triple than a double, so I wouldn't be surprised if the judges give a little more credit when they are done on triples. The rules say:

FOR + 1 : 2 bullets, FOR + 2 : 4 bullets, FOR + 3 : 6 or more bullets

The criteria for jumps are:

1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable (creative, interesting, original for jump preceded by steps/movements of
the Short Program) steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

So she'd need hit at least one of the other bullets, and any errors on the jump would reduce the GOE, so you could have two bullets and still end up low. For example, a two footed landing is -3.

I'm no judge, so I'm not going to get into an argument over whether or not she deserved more GOE. I just don't think the rippon double should automatically give her +1.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Really? Someone adds a tano/ripppon to a double jump in combination, and it should be counted as a nothing? Not even a +1?

No wonder Ashley is the only one adding difficulty this way. It's a tough crowd.

In a 3-2 combo, for example, you could have a tano on the triple, a tano on the double, or the tano on both. Having a tano on the double only would be the easiest of the three, so there has to be some incentive to do the variation on more of the combination.

 

[frida80]

After watching Amber skate I’m now convinced that she still lacks the motivation she had last new year. Something is wrong. Ever since nationals she’s been on a down swing and I have no idea why. Last year at Golden Spin she was awesome. I thought she would build on it. But she got a very late start this year, August as opposed mid june to early July. Her programs have been very inconsistent. And now she’s gone back to last year’s program.

It’s sad because I thought she would start to take off soon. Maybe she was injured last year after all.

 

[labgoat]

YES. I hear great edges as a bass 'hum', it's so identifiable. Timmy's scratchy tenor edges just stood out as being inferior, as much as everything else in his skating besides the jumps which except for rotation were not remarkable at all. I also can hear a great spin versus a not great spin just by the sound. I really don't know if it is innate or these superior skaters just lucked out starting out with excellent coaches who taught them great basics.... Ryan Jahnke is another one who just oozed SS. So did Deanna Stellato, and I'm so glad she's back in the sport.

Ryan was wonderfully complete. His edges and those of training mate Dan Hollander were extremely good, quick and creative.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

After watching all of the American women skate I’m now convinced that they still lack the motivation they had last new year. Something is wrong. Ever since nationals they've been on a down swing and I have no idea why.

I corrected your comment above.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

ITA. It's annoying to see someone always being so negative against Ashley's achievements, that of other U.S. women, and U.S. skating in general. I start getting the feeling that they're just old miseries who refuse to see any positives no matter what unless there's a medal attached to someone's performance - especially gold. Everyone is out there trying their best. Sometimes life circumstances (like with Gracie) gets in the way too. All my respect to those U.S. skaters still plugging away. There WILL be a return to the top, it's just going to take some time. Other countries have the right to have a turn at the top too. Why should anyone resent that or take it out on U.S. skaters by constantly making derogatory remarks against them or their abilities?

I appreciate the sentiment of your post, but as a fan of US skating generally, it is disappointing that NONE of the women are stepping up. We know they can do it because three different skaters have finished in the top 4 at Worlds the last two seasons. Another has finished top 4 at the Olympics and does a fully rotated 3A. Most of the other skaters outside the US aren't doing anything extra special aside from just rotating their jumps, so it isn't as if our women are getting passed up on technical difficulty.

 

[frida80]

I corrected your comment above.

Ouch... but somewhat accurate. Ashley is a bit more motivated than last year and so is Mirai. But Ashley is off to a late start, meaning more errors. She wants to revise her choreography and improve her jumps at SA. And Mirai is include a 3A, which difficult. Courtney seems pretty fired up. She's made a lot of changes in her deliver and added a 3Lz+3Lo combo. She is just isn't consistent. Which is nothing new for her. Bradie is off to a strong start as well. Several
Summer wins and a close fourth at a very competitive Lombardía trophy. Angela looks promising. A strong SP at Philly International and a close south at Finlandia. She's looking good for her own medal at Tallin later this month. Just Karen and Mariah seem less fired up. Their programs aren't as strong as last year. But at least Karen was motivated to do something about it...

I take it back. US ladies seems very fired up this year. Their trying new things, taking risk, and the B group is steadily improving. I guess I needed to type it out to gain some perspective.

 

[SkaterX]

Why did Amber go back to the Send in the Clowns program?! Her Beyonce program was better and had more personality.

 

[noskates]

For Nats in San Jose and Nats and Worlds in Boston we were center ice, row 14. I think these are perfect seats. For one of the exhibitions in Boston (nats I think) we were front row a little left of center and we'll never do that again. You can't see the corners and you don't get a good overhead visual. I guess it's just what you want that matters. We're in row 16 on the aisle, center ice in San Jose in January.

I wouldn't say "lack of motivation" is the cause of the diminishing results for the US Ladies. Definitely not Ashley as evidenced by her fierce performance in her LP last weekend. If that wasn't motivation than I don't know the definition of the word. I don't know if it's coaching or lack of competition among the senior ladies. The Russians and the Japanese are fighting for their lives - there are handfuls of competitors that could qualify from both countries and every time any of them step on the ice it's a critical performance. With the US ladies, it doesn't seem to be the same. With Gracie out of the mix, Karen's lack of consistency (which has plagued her all her skating life) and Mariah still pretty young, there isn't anyone pushing Ashley. Amber Glenn and the others are "wannabes" in my opinion. There really isn't anything overly remarkable about them that makes them stand out. They might get a Nationals medal but they're toast on the international scene. I wish someone could figure it out though because it seems the US is falling farther and farther behind.

 

[skylark]

I guess I needed to type it out to gain some perspective.

That happens to me sometimes too. It's what is so neat about GS forum. You can write something by addressing other figure skating FANatics, that gives you perspective on your own views. "You" meaning me ... and everyone.

 

[labgoat]

Am I the only one who hasn't written Polina off yet. I was encouraged to see her attempt all her jumps even if they were not successful. I think she is probably being careful about not reinjuring herself. I think that getting in competitive shape will help her rotate the jumps. Her planned content, footwork, spins and connecting steps seems to be in order. I can't forget how much she improved between the Grand Prix and nationals. The girl has willpower in spades.

 

[skylark]

You're definitely not the only one who hasn't written Polina off. I thought she made great progress over the summer, and she's proven she can, quietly and without fuss, bring herself to being very competitive in US ladies. I think conversations here tend to revolve more around the current competitions and other events, is all.

 

[frida80]

That happens to me sometimes too. It's what is so neat about GS forum. You can write something by addressing other figure skating FANatics, that gives you perspective on your own views. "You" meaning me ... and everyone.

Yeah! As I was writing, I started to remember more details and came to different conclusion than I did initially. I guess it helps to write it out in detail than just reply with a four word sentence.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Am I the only one who hasn't written Polina off yet. I was encouraged to see her attempt all her jumps even if they were not successful. I think she is probably being careful about not reinjuring herself. I think that getting in competitive shape will help her rotate the jumps. Her planned content, footwork, spins and connecting steps seems to be in order. I can't forget how much she improved between the Grand Prix and nationals. The girl has willpower in spades.

No. I think she could be in the mix, depending how much her jumps improve in the next few months. She has good programs, her planned jump layouts are competitive internationally, and the US judges like her so she isn't likely to be lowballed on PCS. A top 3 finish at Nationals wouldn't surprise me one bit.

 

[R.D.]

I'm tired of reading things like "the best it's gonna get." Sorrynotsorry.

Here's what I mean by that. I can appreciate the "half-full" perspective in that Wagner has worked hard, built a career that most can be proud of, and has a passionate fan base with many who look to her as a role model - but if we step back and look at this from a big picture perspective, in terms of the US skating program, we have had decades of ladies who have been multiple-time World and/or Olympic medalists, and in the past 10 years or so, suddenly that has ceased to be the case. I don't think stating this is a diss on anybody, but simply the reality of the situation US ladies skating finds itself in. If the US used to always factor in, if not dominate altogether, a particular sport - but no longer does - is that a reflection of the selection pool? Larger systemic issues? Training opportunities? Financial exclusivity? I think that's the whole reason this series of threads was started in the first place. If some are happy with the way things are now, that's cool. But in my view, if skating is to be taken seriously as a sport, and not just pure entertainment, then we should strive to aim higher. (The judging and bias also need to be addressed, but that's another topic.)

We've seen Wagner skate better than she did at SC; I don't think it's unreasonable to expect more out of her or to ask questions. Same with the other top US women. Unless there's some undisclosed injury she hasn't told us about, but in the absence of such news I will assume she's fully healthy. Look, if the Russians and Canadians can do it...the US women can too. Let's see if it can (eventually) be done. A lot can change very quickly......or not.....

 

[R.D.]

Am I the only one who hasn't written Polina [Edmunds] off yet

No. But that said, I think the odds are stacked against her in many ways. Then again, it's not like any of the other Americans are exactly tearing it up right now, so who knows...

I think she could be in the mix, depending how much her jumps improve in the next few months. She has good programs, her planned jump layouts are competitive internationally, and the US judges like her so she isn't likely to be lowballed on PCS. A top 3 finish at Nationals wouldn't surprise me one bit.

Here's the bigger question: If Edmunds lands in the top 3, and Chen or Wagner end up 4th - does Edmunds get bumped? I know this rule worked in her favor in 2014, as Nagasu got bumped instead, but...still a valid question given her lack of recent competitive history and the rule change, IMO.

 

[musicfan80]

I think even if Polina falls short of making the 2018 team, I hope that she doesn't get too discouraged and continues to improve. She's still young enough that 2022 is certainly a possibility.

 

[Icey]

Fairly desperate, I would say, sadly.

 

[skylark]

If the US used to always factor in, if not dominate altogether, a particular sport - but no longer does - is that a reflection of the selection pool? Larger systemic issues? Training opportunities? Financial exclusivity? I think that's the whole reason this series of threads was started in the first place.
.

I didn't know that. But even though I've been reading the forum for a relatively short amount of time, I've seen this topic discussed to its full extent, ending with the same conclusions and questions, over and over ... ad infinitum, or so it seems to me. So I'm tired of it, even though I realize that new people are here all the time; and I try to be tolerant of the repetition.

Part of my thought process in writing that post was the discussion of Sasha Cohen. I think she's a great skater, even though she didn't win the olympics or worlds, and only won nationals once. Looking at Sasha's career reminds me that there are so many ways to value a skater other than comparing her to a Kwan, a Lipinski, a Hamill, and so on.

So why not look at Ashley's career, and her contribution to US ladies' skating, in the same light. Celebrating and valuing what she's done in a time of a very difficult transition away from the way US ladies traditionally competed and skated. So that's what I tried to do. I probably should have stated that as my intent. The only trouble with that is, I often have to write things down and then let my mind process them, in order to figure out what my intent was in the first place.!!

We've seen Wagner skate better than she did at SC; I don't think it's unreasonable to expect more out of her or to ask questions. Same with the other top US women. .

It isn't unreasonable. It's just that so many people's remarks come at Ashley from the angle of what's wrong with her. So I would like to try to add another dimension or two to the conversation.