2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

[BackSpiral]

For Nats in San Jose and Nats and Worlds in Boston we were center ice, row 14. I think these are perfect seats. For one of the exhibitions in Boston (nats I think) we were front row a little left of center and we'll never do that again. You can't see the corners and you don't get a good overhead visual. I guess it's just what you want that matters. We're in row 16 on the aisle, center ice in San Jose in January.

I wouldn't say "lack of motivation" is the cause of the diminishing results for the US Ladies. Definitely not Ashley as evidenced by her fierce performance in her LP last weekend. If that wasn't motivation than I don't know the definition of the word. I don't know if it's coaching or lack of competition among the senior ladies. The Russians and the Japanese are fighting for their lives - there are handfuls of competitors that could qualify from both countries and every time any of them step on the ice it's a critical performance. With the US ladies, it doesn't seem to be the same. With Gracie out of the mix, Karen's lack of consistency (which has plagued her all her skating life) and Mariah still pretty young, there isn't anyone pushing Ashley. Amber Glenn and the others are "wannabes" in my opinion. There really isn't anything overly remarkable about them that makes them stand out. They might get a Nationals medal but they're toast on the international scene. I wish someone could figure it out though because it seems the US is falling farther and farther behind.

Doesn't Mariah have the highest total score on the GP so far for the U.S. women? She didn't get a medal but she has scored higher than Chen, Wagner, and Nagasu up to this point. Mariah is young but not that young.

 

[R.D.]

Part of my thought process in writing that post was the discussion of Sasha Cohen. I think she's a great skater, even though she didn't win the olympics or worlds, and only won nationals once. Looking at Sasha's career reminds me that there are so many ways to value a skater other than comparing her to a Kwan, a Lipinski, a Hamill, and so on.

So why not look at Ashley's career, and her contribution to US ladies' skating, in the same light. Celebrating and valuing what she's done in a time of a very difficult transition away from the way US ladies traditionally competed and skated. So that's what I tried to do. I probably should have stated that as my intent. The only trouble with that is, I often have to write things down and then let my mind process them, in order to figure out what my intent was in the first place.!!

Thanks for clarifying your perspective. I think it's a fair point, and I'll be honest - I think that's something that will eventually happen over time. It may take 5 or 10 years after Wagner has stepped away for her impact on the Program to come into focus. I don't know if you were around the forums during the height of Cohen's career but much of the discussion surrounding her was "Why can't she put two clean programs together?" "Why does she always fall?" It wasn't that she WON world silver or Olympic silver, but she lost Olympic Gold or never won Worlds, and at the time it was seen generally as unfulfilled potential (perhaps, in some eyes, failure). But it only took 4 years after she left in 2006 and the subsequent plummet of US ladies skating for the skating community to welcome her back with open arms during her 2009-10 run. Now that some time has passed, Cohen's career achievements are viewed in a different light - and I think the same will happen with Wagner. This will especially be true if no one is able to immediately match her highest achievements - or perhaps even her fan support.

It's just that so many people's remarks come at Ashley from the angle of what's wrong with her. So I would like to try to add another dimension or two to the conversation.

I acknowledge I can be highly critical of her at times - or of most of the other ladies, particularly if I feel they can do better. That said, I try to, and often do, give credit when it's due, like when she rose up in 2012, won Nationals in 2015 or finally got on the World podium in Boston. I think each of us brings different perspectives to these communities and that's what makes this place what it is. Not a fan board, but not necessarily an anti-board either. I think talking it out in threads like this helps us understand where the other is coming from and respect that, even if we don't agree.

 

[skylark]

Thanks for clarifying your perspective. I think it's a fair point, and I'll be honest - I think that's something that will eventually happen over time. It may take 5 or 10 years after Wagner has stepped away for her impact on the Program to come into focus. I don't know if you were around the forums during the height of Cohen's career but much of the discussion surrounding her was "Why can't she put two clean programs together?" "Why does she always fall?" It wasn't that she WON world silver or Olympic silver, but she lost Olympic Gold or never won Worlds, and at the time it was seen generally as unfulfilled potential (perhaps, in some eyes, failure). But it only took 4 years after she left in 2006 and the subsequent plummet of US ladies skating for the skating community to welcome her back with open arms during her 2009-10 run. Now that some time has passed, Cohen's career achievements are viewed in a different light - and I think the same will happen with Wagner. This will especially be true if no one is able to immediately match her highest achievements - or perhaps even her fan support.

I was nowhere near this forum, or any figure skating fan community, during Sasha's active years. That "why does she always fall?" sounds familiar, though; it was probably in the ether.

I acknowledge I can be highly critical of her at times - or of most of the other ladies, particularly if I feel they can do better. That said, I try to, and often do, give credit when it's due, like when she rose up in 2012, won Nationals in 2015 or finally got on the World podium in Boston. I think each of us brings different perspectives to these communities and that's what makes this place what it is. Not a fan board, but not necessarily an anti-board either. I think talking it out in threads like this helps us understand where the other is coming from and respect that, even if we don't agree.[

/QUOTE]

I do agree with that. Not necessarily speaking of any poster in particular, but it often seems to me that the lack of respect for certain skaters is endemic, and everyone just assumes that it's normal. And I don't see that as normal. I decided to post my perspective, to at least address some of the imbalance that I see toward Ashley. I do realize that remarks can be reflecting people's desire and hopes for her, and as you said, a belief that they can do better. I'm glad to see it stated in black and white ... that is helpful.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Here's the bigger question: If Edmunds lands in the top 3, and Chen or Wagner end up 4th - does Edmunds get bumped? I know this rule worked in her favor in 2014, as Nagasu got bumped instead, but...still a valid question given her lack of recent competitive history and the rule change, IMO.

I don't think anyone could bump Polina off if she medals. She has as much, or more, World and Olympic experience than anyone in the field except Ashley. If Chen doesn't have a good second GP and doesn't do well at Nationals, I doubt she could bump anyone off the team because she would have skated precisely one good event in the year leading up to the Olympics.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

Would it be better for Ashley to dump the lutz that always gets an edge call and instead do a second salchow? Would she get more points?

 

[brightphoton]

Is anyone following the ladies on the senior B circuit? Any medal contenders there?

 

[qwerty]

Would it be better for Ashley to dump the lutz that always gets an edge call and instead do a second salchow? Would she get more points?

She needs to do the lutz to fit in 7 triples without Zayaking. She's currently repeating the flip and loop jumps, which are relatively strong for her. I actually think she dislikes salchows, although I don't have a quote handy for that.

 

[Chemistry66]

Is anyone following the ladies on the senior B circuit? Any medal contenders there?

I assume by Senior B circuit you mean Challenger Series? (No US ladies have been assigned to non-Challenger Senior Bs)

Here's the Challenger standings for ladies

Bradie Tennell has the current highest score on the circuit for US ladies, but just missed out on a medal. So far Mirai Nagasu and Karen Chen are the only US medalists on the Challenger circuit.

In order of highest score:

196.70 - Bradie Tennell - 4th at Lombardia Trophy (assigned to Skate America GP)
183.85 - Angela Wang - 4th at Finlandia Trophy (assigned to Tallinn Trophy)
183.54 - Mirai Nagasu - 2nd at US Classic (9th at Rostelecom Cup GP, assigned to NHK Trophy GP)
182.32 - Karen Chen - 3rd at US Classic (7th at Skate Canada GP, assigned to Skate America GP)
174.16 - Courtney Hicks - 4th at Autumn Classic (4th at Skate Canada GP, also assigned to Warsaw Cup)
168.66 - Mariah Bell - 5th at US Classic (6th at Rostelecom Cup GP, assigned to NHK Trophy GP)
167.95 - Caroline Zhang - 6th at Nepela Trophy (assigned to Tallinn Trophy)
149.96 - Amber Glenn - 8th at Lombardia Trophy (10th at Cup of China GP)
142.20 - Polina Edmunds - 13th at Finlandia Trophy (assigned to Internationaux de France GP)
119.71 - Paige Rydberg - 9th at US Classic

 

[R.D.]

I wouldn't say "lack of motivation" is the cause of the diminishing results for the US Ladies. Definitely not Ashley as evidenced by her fierce performance in her LP last weekend. If that wasn't motivation than I don't know the definition of the word. I don't know if it's coaching or lack of competition among the senior ladies. The Russians and the Japanese are fighting for their lives - there are handfuls of competitors that could qualify from both countries and every time any of them step on the ice it's a critical performance. With the US ladies, it doesn't seem to be the same. With Gracie out of the mix, Karen's lack of consistency (which has plagued her all her skating life) and Mariah still pretty young, there isn't anyone pushing Ashley. Amber Glenn and the others are "wannabes" in my opinion. There really isn't anything overly remarkable about them that makes them stand out. They might get a Nationals medal but they're toast on the international scene. I wish someone could figure it out though because it seems the US is falling farther and farther behind.

I think you're onto something there (bold). I'm of the opinion that Gold (in her prime) was instrumental in giving Wagner that extra push. We've seen Wagner's best results come after she ends up being buried at Nationals - for instance, 2011, and again in 2014 (when she was still given a spot on the team). And then again in 2016, after being 3rd behind Gold and Edmunds at those Nationals, and being somewhat left out of the conversation - that led to her FINALLY nailing the SP at Boston Worlds. When she didn't have anyone nipping at her heels (think 2012, 2015) and the talk was about HER, that's when she had stumbles at worlds. 2017 was a notable exception where she was edged out by Chen despite a decent effort at Nationals, but still turned in a sub-par effort at those Worlds (given her history, you'd think it would have fired her up). Now, without Gold to push her, and with Chen off to a slow(ER) start, I wonder what we'll see out of her.

I agree about Glenn and the others - I saw she got 10th at COC this weekend, but frankly that's expected. Very competitive field. Occasionally we see "B" girls like Hicks and Nagasu emerge onto a GP podium but they just can't keep up the consistency, especially when it comes to nationals. Unless Wagner, Chen and/or Nagasu figure themselves out soon, the US is in trouble.

 

[brightphoton]

I assume by Senior B circuit you mean Challenger Series? (No US ladies have been assigned to non-Challenger Senior Bs)

Here's the Challenger standings for ladies

Bradie Tennell has the current highest score on the circuit for US ladies, but just missed out on a medal. So far Mirai Nagasu and Karen Chen are the only US medalists on the Challenger circuit.

In order of highest score:

196.70 - Bradie Tennell - 4th at Lombardia Trophy (assigned to Skate America GP)
183.85 - Angela Wang - 4th at Finlandia Trophy (assigned to Tallinn Trophy)
183.54 - Mirai Nagasu - 2nd at US Classic (7th at Rostelecom Cup GP, assigned to NHK Trophy GP)
182.32 - Karen Chen - 3rd at US Classic (7th at Skate Canada GP, assigned to Skate America GP)
174.16 - Courtney Hicks - 4th at Autumn Classic (also assigned to Warsaw Cup)
168.66 - Mariah Bell - 5th at US Classic (6th at Rostelecom Cup GP, assigned to NHK Trophy GP)
167.95 - Caroline Zhang - 6th at Nepela Trophy (assigned to Tallinn Trophy)
149.96 - Amber Glenn - 8th at Lombardia Trophy (10th at Cup of China GP)
142.20 - Polina Edmunds - 13th at Finlandia Trophy (assigned to Internationaux de France GP)
119.71 - Paige Rydberg - 9th at US Classic

oh ...

It's slim pickin's for us

 

[mrrice]

oh ...

It's slim pickin's for us

My only hope is that the ladies are hoping to peak later in the season. I think some of them will have their programs re-worked for better impact and scoring potential. I am really hoping that Mariah Bell will ditch her current LP and go back to East Of Eden. If Ashley can do it for the 3rd time, Mariah can certainly return to her previous LP.

 

[brightphoton]

I decided to watch Amber Glenn's skates. For her free program, she uses Michelle Kwan's Red Violin music, so she gets nostalgia bonus points from me.

She tries for a Rippon lutz ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqXMLekUO3o&t=1m12s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QetJVsSdn7g&t=1m13s

She also tries for a tano flip ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqXMLekUO3o&t=0m48s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QetJVsSdn7g&t=0m55s

I don't think she'll make the Olympic team this year, but it's a good sign she's adding difficulty. It can be her signature jump at the next Olympic cycle.

 

[brightphoton]

I am really hoping that Mariah Bell will ditch her current LP and go back to East Of Eden.

Plus she'll get Michelle Kwan nostalgia bonus points

 

[Grin]

Am I the only one who hasn't written Polina off yet. I was encouraged to see her attempt all her jumps even if they were not successful. I think she is probably being careful about not reinjuring herself. I think that getting in competitive shape will help her rotate the jumps. Her planned content, footwork, spins and connecting steps seems to be in order. I can't forget how much she improved between the Grand Prix and nationals. The girl has willpower in spades.

I think many people wish Polina to make it to the Olympics

My only hope is that ladies are hoping to peak later in the season. I think some of them will have their programs re-worked for better impact and scoring potential. I am really hoping that Mariah Bell will ditch her current LP and go back to East Of Eden. If Ashley can it for the 3rd time, Mariah can certainly return to her previous LP.

I was watching Mariah LP live at Rostelecom. It was lovely, If only she could be more consistent...

 

[R.D.]

...

If Chen doesn't have a good second GP and doesn't do well at Nationals, I doubt she could bump anyone off the team because she would have skated precisely one good event in the year leading up to the Olympics.

That's true, I have to agree there.

 

[skylark]

183.54 - Mirai Nagasu - 2nd at US Classic (7th at Rostelecom Cup GP, assigned to NHK Trophy GP)
182.32 - Karen Chen - 3rd at US Classic (7th at Skate Canada GP, assigned to Skate America GP)
174.16 - Courtney Hicks - 4th at Autumn Classic (also assigned to Warsaw Cup)
168.66 - Mariah Bell - 5th at US Classic (6th at Rostelecom Cup GP, assigned to NHK Trophy GP)

No, Mirai Nagasu was 9th at Rostelecom Cup, not 7th.

Is there a reason that you listed the highest Challenger scores for Courtney and Mariah, rather than their GP scores?

Courtney Hicks' highest score is 182.57, which she earned with a 4th place finish at Skate Canada.

Mariah Bell's highest score is 188.56, earned at Rostelecom Cup.

 

[ice coverage]

Is anyone following the ladies on the senior B circuit? Any medal contenders there?

... (No US ladies have been assigned to non-Challenger Senior Bs) ...

With the exception of the Philadelphia Summer International Competition (non-Challenger Senior B in August), where eight U.S. ladies competed.

Old news by now, but the results (such as Bradie first; Angela second; Courtney fourth; Amber fifth) surely influenced subsequent assignments.

http://iceworkssc.org/psic/results/2017/2017 PHL_INT Senior Ladies Combine Result.pdf (46-page Results pdf)​

It was only the second year of the PSIC (after a one-year hiatus since the first one in 2015).
I hope that USFS will hold the comp again in 2018.

---

OT but would like to follow up as promised as I head back from NYC. Saw and got autographs from D&W and met the Shibutanis for the first time

Anyway back to the regularly scheduled program :thumbsup: Wagner was there too but I did not see her during my time there (and AFAIK she was the only one of the figure skaters there who was not a part of the autograph sessions). ...

Adding some comments re the USOC WinterFest tour, which will make a number of stops across the country thru Feb. (Plus one stop in Seoul.)
(One of the stops will be in San Jose on Jan 6, in conjunction with USFS Nats.)

https://www.teamusa.org/Team-USA-Winterfest-presented-by-Hersheys​

ETA:

:hopelessness: Apology/Disclaimer:
After chattering away endlessly below about the Toyota booth and swag, I realize now that *maybe* Toyota will *not* be at every stop on the WinterFest tour.​

For those who like swag , Toyota had a cool booth at the Times Square stop where you could design your own Team-USA-winter-sports-themed graphic (via computer) to be printed on site on a free souvenir (choice of a water bottle or small tote bag).
My caveat is that the line moved slowly and felt very long. So depending on one's priorities and time limitations, perhaps would be checking this booth out earlier rather than later if visiting WinterFest. (The wait in line was worth it, IMO. I like tote bags :yes:. Toyota also was giving out Team USA fabric keychains [non-customized].)

BTW, for those waiting in line at the Toyota booth, a monitor showed video of Toyota-sponsored winter athletes, including Ashley Wagner.
(I can't remember whether I had known before about Ashley's Toyota sponsorship??)

I arrived too late for the autograph sessions. But as I was waiting in the Toyota line, I got a thrill :hap85: when Rico Roman (Paralympian in sled hockey) returned my wave as he happened to be walking by. He was a memorable athlete sighting for me (but my only one).

Another FYI/caveat: A set of 2018 PyeongChang medals and an Olympic torch were in a display case elsewhere when I first arrived, and I intended to leisurely take a close look after emerging from the Toyota line, but when I eventually made my way back to the display, the medals and torch already had been removed (it was not quite yet closing time for the whole WinterFest).

So ... I consoled myself with a S'more from the Hershey mobile. The sweetness level was off the charts, moreso than I remembered from childhood, but as a once-per-decades freebie treat, I indulged. A Hershey's rep also was circulating with some mini-samples of chocolate bars.
And Nabisco was giving out samples of Oreos packaged with a medal-esque sticker.

It was really fun to see video of Ashley, Max, Jason, Nathan, D/W, Shibs flashing by on big (permanent) Times Square billboards. Also of some athletes I recognize from other winter sports. Big caveat that I have no idea whether other WinterFest venues would have anything on a similar scale.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

No, Mirai Nagasu was 9th at Rostelecom Cup, not 7th.

Is there a reason that you listed the highest Challenger scores for Courtney and Mariah, rather than their GP scores?

Courtney Hicks' highest score is 182.57, which she earned with a 4th place finish at Skate Canada.

Mariah Bell's highest score is 188.56, earned at Rostelecom Cup.

I think the post was based on Senior B standings.

 

[Chemistry66]

No, Mirai Nagasu was 9th at Rostelecom Cup, not 7th.

Is there a reason that you listed the highest Challenger scores for Courtney and Mariah, rather than their GP scores?

Courtney Hicks' highest score is 182.57, which she earned with a 4th place finish at Skate Canada.

Mariah Bell's highest score is 188.56, earned at Rostelecom Cup.

Sorry, that was a typo where I misread the page.

And I listed the Challenger scores because that was what was being discussed. How the ladies were doing on the Senior B circuit. I did add Courtney's GP placement in now, but I was focusing on the Senior B scores and how that'll affect those rankings/assignments. The GP assignments/placements were just mentioned to show that some skaters may not have multiple Challenger assignments because they have GPs.

 

[temadd]

She needs to do the lutz to fit in 7 triples without Zayaking. She's currently repeating the flip and loop jumps, which are relatively strong for her. I actually think she dislikes salchows, although I don't have a quote handy for that.

The loop used to be Ashley's most reliable jump but starting with last season she has been under-rotating it pretty often.

Look at the second Lo at 2016 worlds - near the end of the program and it was strong, high and unquestionable rotated. What happened?