2017-18 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating | Page 44 | Golden Skate

2017-18 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

The American men look good this season from the results but everyone is skating rather rough. Brown, Aaron, Chen are looking good and you can't count out Zhou and Rippon. However, as well as they are doing they are vulnerable other than Chen who is OGM threat material. Fortunatley the judges love Jason because if they wanted too they could throw him under the bus for his lack of quads and just as pcs go up when you land big jumps the could also knock jason down a notch or three. Rippon will need to try and do the quads. Max and jason have thrown down the gauntlet. Right now I would say it is Chen, Brown, Aaron, Zhou and Rippon and the rest as much as they are loved not in the game. This is one of the events where the US will be favored for an olympic medal with Nathan Chen. There will be times when Jason's beautiful skating will be enough to podium ie Skate Canada but come olympics without the quads he might find himself even struggling to be top ten if everyone is on their game.
 
Jason actually gave away close to 20 points at Canada. So I think if the top skaters are not at the top of their game, and he lands that one fully rotated quad (yeah, big if) he could surprise.
 
This competition just emphasizes the depth of the US men's field. I think we medaled in every JGP men's competition and sent two or three guys to the JGPF. Non we've medaled in all of the GP events so far. Plus Vincent got fourth at his very first GP. We have definitely turned a corner in the last few years. Everyone talks about giving JP ladies an extra slot for ladies. Well we need an extra slot for all our men!

Edit: US Junior men did medal at all JPF and three made it to the finals. Incredible.
 
In terms of PCS, I am NOT attempting to compare Vincent's to Nathan's or Shoma's or Boyang's who have similar jumps lay-out to Vincent. Compare to them, it is not a matter of Vincent clean up his "messy" jump and program. Those guys has much more milage and much more established than Vincent at the moment.

I am considering and worried whether Vincent's clean up effort as this season goes on and the possible rise of his PCS and GOE can make him even competitive to Skaters like Jason and Adam who has not a single reliable quad but much more established and experienced.

Can Vincent do a cleaning program with just 3 quads. I am sure he can, Can a 3 quad with more component(artistry) Vincent program compete with no-quad but artistic programs, IMO it should.
But the fact is that, Judges and PCS(75) won't assure you that. So youngster like Vincent who actually has the basic SS/talent to develop artistic programs are scared and opt to do as much quad as possible. Because BV is the ONLY thing they can control.

Plus Vincent is NOT Russian lady debute skater and NOT USFS's top priority.

As for the future after this season, I have no doubt that Vincent has the talent and potential to develop into a World Champion level of skater.
 
In terms of PCS, I am NOT attempting to compare Vincent's to Nathan's or Shoma's or Boyang's who have similar jumps lay-out to Vincent. Compare to them, it is not a matter of Vincent clean up his "messy" jump and program. Those guys has much more milage and much more established than Vincent at the moment.

I am considering and worried whether Vincent's clean up effort as this season goes on and the possible rise of his PCS and GOE can make him even competitive to Skaters like Jason and Adam who has not a single reliable quad but much more established and experienced.

Can Vincent do a cleaning program with just 3 quads. I am sure he can, Can a 3 quad with more component(artistry) Vincent program compete with no-quad but artistic programs, IMO it should.
But the fact is that, Judges and PCS(75) won't assure you that. So youngster like Vincent who actually has the basic SS/talent to develop artistic programs are scared and opt to do as much quad as possible. Because BV is the ONLY thing they can control.

Plus Vincent is NOT Russian lady debute skater and NOT USFS's top priority.

As for the future after this season, I have no doubt that Vincent has the talent and potential to develop into a World Champion level of skater.

What does this mean? No Russian lady skater would be the USFS top priority, I would assume. ;)
 
What does this mean? No Russian lady skater would be the USFS top priority, I would assume. ;)
you know what I mean:biggrin:

BTW, I really feel for Vincent, for the situation he is in right now.
Every time, I am watching him fight to death to land those quads at such a tender age with his slim pre-mature body (for man), my heart just hurts. This system is asking too much from those lovely young male skaters.
 
you know what I mean:biggrin:

If it is the tired old wheeze of comparing men's scores to ladies' scores, I for one would definitely prefer to keep it out of the US Men's thread. "Nyah nyah nyah you got beat by a girl" is what little boys said in my kindergarten class, and my kindergarten class was, er, some years ago. Thanks heavens those kinds of comments in 2017 are now way uncool.:biggrin:

But I don't want to say that, if that's not what you meant.:)
 
If it is the tired old wheeze of comparing men's scores to ladies' scores, I for one would definitely prefer to keep it out of the US Men's thread. "Nyah nyah nyah you got beat by a girl" is what little boys said in my kindergarten class, and my kindergarten class was, er, some years ago. Thanks heavens those arguments in 2017 are now way uncool.:biggrin:

But I don't want to say that, if that's not what you meant.:)

Nope, that is not what I meant as well:biggrin:, but I won't explain what I meant here, not really matters and for the sake of keep it out of US men's thread:biggrin:, and I guess/hope some people visit here know what I mean:biggrin:.
 
Max is impressive. You can see him determine to land his jumps from his powerful takeoffs. The men’s tech panel was generous and didn’t nail Vincent those under rotations. In the FS he should get 4F<, 4S<, 4Lz<, and 3Lz+1Lo+3F<. His many jumps looked rotated on his toepicks.
 
The American men look good this season from the results but everyone is skating rather rough.

I think we're going to see a lot of crazy results in the next few years, simply based on the difficulty attempted and that really none of the men are a sure thing to skate relatively clean in a big event. Someone like Max or Vincent can take advantage of a situation in which the medal favorites have a meltdown, and this isn't out of the realm of possibilities. A lot of men will be attempting jumps they aren't all that comfortable doing at the Olympics. My hope is that at least the OGMist delivers a champion's performance.
 
Can Vincent do a cleaning program with just 3 quads. I am sure he can, Can a 3 quad with more component(artistry) Vincent program compete with no-quad but artistic programs, IMO it should.
But the fact is that, Judges and PCS(75) won't assure you that. So youngster like Vincent who actually has the basic SS/talent to develop artistic programs are scared and opt to do as much quad as possible. Because BV is the ONLY thing they can control.

The men, in essence, have two choices: They can either choose to try to keep up with the Joneses or you figure out a back door to get what you want.

I think Nathan's seemingly overnight situation is not necessarily one that every one can replicate. I think it helps that Nathan had a lot raw jumping talent -- to where mastering jumps came naturally to him. He also has excellent skating skills. Those two things really made what happen last season possible. But even he I think wasn't just trying to do too much at once.

Jason is the exact opposite of Nathan -- jump mastery does not come naturally to him. Jason is not apologetic (for the most part) of where he is, technically, despite fans' insistence that he should --he just keeps truckin' along and focuses on where he can shine. His success has come because he and his team has systematically figured out ways for him to shine (and rack up points) without those quads. He doesn't always win or get on the podium, of course, but he usually does enough to make overall competition progress while he's still working on those harder jumps. He also shows a lot of confidence and charisma even when he makes mistakes. People downplay it, but anyone that has ever had to speak in front of the public or do some other performance knows that it doesn't come naturally to everyone.
When he was a junior, that meant Jr. World medals and even JGPF championship while he was working on he 3A. Now despite not having a quad, he's made an Olympic team, secured several GP medals, help team USA get three spots and won a national title. He's also managed to impress judges with his overall skating quality and programs to the point he has the top PCS in the men's field (he's just behind Javi, Patrick, Yuzu and Shoma). And now, the door's open for him to qualify for his first GPF. Again, I get some people don't dig that strategy, but it works for him.

I admire Vincent's ambition and drive. However, he also needs to be deliberate. He has a really good 4Z. He's hit-and-miss on the other three quads. He needs to perhaps find the one that would give him the most success (I'm leaning toward the 4T) and work toward repeating that jump. That's still four quads. Get huge GOE on those jumps while you work to integrate the 3A better into your programs (I noticed that he's only had one fully rotated 3A out of five attempts and that one had -GOE). Perhaps work on getting a few more level 4 spins -- no it's not huge point getters, but given the competition, it's something you shouldn't throw away. Yes, BV may be the absolute thing you can control, but there's something to be said about have such clean and convincing programs that judges can't help being impressed with you.

Max seems to be emerging from that focus drift. He is far more consistent on the 4T and 4S now and that's why he's become a factor as of late. He of course needs to work on boost GOE on his jumps, but I think the progress he's made is quite notable at this point.
 
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Max is impressive. You can see him determine to land his jumps from his powerful takeoffs. The men’s tech panel was generous and didn’t nail Vincent those under rotations. In the FS he should get 4F<, 4S<, 4Lz<, and 3Lz+1Lo+3F<. His many jumps looked rotated on his toepicks.

I was actually about to point this out, too. Zhou should be counting his lucky stars that he was skating in Beijing and not in Regina last week. The slo-mo replays after his FS brought the rotation of every single one of his quads into question. Like, maybe the first one might have been benefit-of-the-doubt, but all the others were pretty bad.

And this is what I'm concerned about, regarding the lenient tech panel that we're sure to see at US Nationals. Zhou's sloppy skate nearly beat Max's superb one in the free because some of Zhou's URs weren't called. What'll happen with identical skates at US Nationals?
 
@Mrs. P
Vincent's most consistent jump is 4LZ, 4S,not 4T which is one of his newer quad. Vincent also has a relatively good 3A among American men's (looking at your Nathan).
it is him adding too many different quads this season all of a sudden, that messed up his quad jump consistency. His 4F is not consistent and it is depends on his day-to-day condition could be on and off. And apparently 4S, 3A consistency is not as high as before, due to the focus on perhaps 4F and so many quads, which is also a situation Nathan will face this season with five different type of quads attempt. completely another ball game (but Nathan Boi, I wish you can achieve that feat and make history at OG).
According to practice video, Vincent's condition is not very good at COC (he chose not to do 4T entirely), his FS actually is a courageous act!!!
I personally also not sure what strategy Vincent should take in order to get onto that OG team. Perhaps maybe, make sure that SP is super clean so that he can get into as later group as possible, whether achieve that by switch to easier 4S jump or improve his 4F consistency is really up to him. But SP is crucial for him.
 
Russian ladies right out of junior gets insane PCS out of the gate. Look at zagitova, her PCS is the highest in CoC. And look at Vincent, he is the reigning Jr champ, has the highest TES like Zagitova by a large margin, but somehow got really bad PCS. Something is wrong here. Either Zagitova got too much PCS or Vincent is not getting high enough PCS. I think it is somewhere in the middle.
 
I think international judges want Jason at the game because they know his upper limit. He cannot come close to the medal stand.

Someone who can land 5 quads like Vincent is more dangerous. He can be the next Boyang Jin at big events. It is quite disingenuous to push certain skaters knowing they have absolutely 0% chance.
 
I was actually about to point this out, too. Zhou should be counting his lucky stars that he was skating in Beijing and not in Regina last week. The slo-mo replays after his FS brought the rotation of every single one of his quads into question. Like, maybe the first one might have been benefit-of-the-doubt, but all the others were pretty bad.

And this is what I'm concerned about, regarding the lenient tech panel that we're sure to see at US Nationals. Zhou's sloppy skate nearly beat Max's superb one in the free because some of Zhou's URs weren't called. What'll happen with identical skates at US Nationals?

I think international judges want Jason at the game because they know his upper limit. He cannot come close to the medal stand.

Someone who can land 5 quads like Vincent is more dangerous. He can be the next Boyang Jin at big events. It is quite disingenuous to push certain skaters knowing they have absolutely 0% chance.

I have wondered to what extent Vincent's growth spurt would hurt his jumps. It's hard to believe he's 5'7" now! Wasn't he around 5'0" just a couple of seasons ago? That's what's insane about boys - many times it seems like they can stay short forever and then grow an insane amount at around ages 16-18.

I've said this numerous times on here before - there's not a lot I HATE HATE HATE in figure skating more than the inflated judging at U.S. Nationals. I feel like the judging should be at least as harsh as what the skaters should see at Worlds/Olympics. They aren't doing them any favors by not calling URs/levels appropriately and then letting the skaters act all :shocked: when they get hammered for them later. They should be penalized for issues earlier so they will be motivated to fix them.
 
Russian ladies right out of junior gets insane PCS out of the gate. Look at zagitova, her PCS is the highest in CoC. And look at Vincent, he is the reigning Jr champ, has the highest TES like Zagitova by a large margin, but somehow got really bad PCS. Something is wrong here. Either Zagitova got too much PCS or Vincent is not getting high enough PCS. I think it is somewhere in the middle.

I would say that the difference is that the ceiling for women is different than men. Look at the skating skills, choreography, interpretation of PChan, Hanyu, Javi, Shoma, heck, even Nathan Chen. They are far above the level of Vincent. Vincent has improved a lot since last year, but there's a lot to improve on in the future.

Meanwhile in the ladies, I would say no top lady comes close to being as amazingly GOOD at so many PCS categories as the top men do, aside from Evgenia Medvedeva. Alina probably has the best transitions in the world, plus being the best lady in BOTH jumps and spins at once. I think her interpretation and choreography leave much to be desired, especially when other ladies are giving performances with more depth and emotion than Don Quixote, but her elements are soooooooooo good.

Anyway, the top men are at a much higher level than the top ladies, so it takes more time to get there from the junior level.
 
The argument here is that Vincent's PCS is not nearly close to what Zagi get considering their similar background in junior rank.
Zagi has the highest PCS of this COC with about 2 points lead in TES. According to COC fan live report, ALL said Wakaba's performance is much better than Zagi, actually some other girls too.
Yet Vincent's PCS is 75, ranked 7th in the filed, with 6 point lead in TES. And from Chinese live report, they has mentioned Vincent's performance along side with Javi and Han Yan as the most impressive.

I just propose a huge difference here.
 
I would say that the difference is that the ceiling for women is different than men. Look at the skating skills, choreography, interpretation of PChan, Hanyu, Javi, Shoma, heck, even Nathan Chen. They are far above the level of Vincent. Vincent has improved a lot since last year, but there's a lot to improve on in the future.

Meanwhile in the ladies, I would say no top lady comes close to being as amazingly GOOD at so many PCS categories as the top men do, aside from Evgenia Medvedeva. Alina probably has the best transitions in the world, plus being the best lady in BOTH jumps and spins at once. I think her interpretation and choreography leave much to be desired, especially when other ladies are giving performances with more depth and emotion than Don Quixote, but her elements are soooooooooo good.

Anyway, the top men are at a much higher level than the top ladies, so it takes more time to get there from the junior level.
Hit the nail on the head there IMO.
 
And from Chinese live report, they has mentioned Vincent's performance along side with Javi and Han Yan as the most impressive..

If they think that there was anything impressive about Fernandez's performances, they're smoking something really, really strong.
 
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