They has their opinion about Javi, and you have yours, and as for me, I agree with them, if we are strictly speaking of PCS and the impact to audience.
2017-18 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating
- Thread starter Mrs. P
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They has their opinion about Javi, and you have yours, and as for me, I agree with them, if we are strictly speaking of PCS and the impact to audience.
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
Slopping all over the ice and popping everything leaves no impact on the audience other than "wow, what a bad skate". His actual performance in the FS was lacklustre.
And this is the US men's thread.
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2014
Seren, you are mistaken.
Max is not behind Vincent.
Nice photo of teammatesVincent, Grant, and Max at Cup of China (at the FS draw, I think):
Good luck to all :yay:.
:agree:
This is why you don't post when you're half asleep.
thanks for the catch! I was glad to be wrong. Either way, all the US men this weekend gave us some things to think about.
I just gave an account of a fan who went to watch the event live, I also specifically ask her to be as objective as possible, those are the 3 names she mentioned (I also saw lots other very positive live repo about Javi's artistry albeit disappointing tech delivery ).
I mentioned it as a live report/comparison/information about American men Vincent. so it is relevant and informative to this thread.
Yet your rudeness first towards Chinese fans and then bashing towards Javi does not seems relevant at all.
BTW, I usually do not choose to engage with you on this board at all, because I know it will not be insightful nor entertaining. so this will also be my last post regarding this.
Vincent right now is trying to do to much when it comes to his jumps mainly the quads. Even Nathan had to dial it back with the quads after the GP last season because he was so sloppy and guess what he then skates a nearly clean LP at the GPF and gets on the podium. Plus Nathan seems to have more stamina and mental strength to do all those jumps and also he is a better performer and has worked on his skating skills and speed which Vincent really needs to work on. Funny that people complained about Nathan's LP last season as nothing but jumps but in between you could see him really trying to perform and was listening to the music but Vincent's LP is jumps and nothing else.
What was impressive to them about the performance?
While the audience reaction certainly has been an influence to PCS scores; there's plenty an audience favorite who still don't fufill the judges expectations to get certain scores.
I don't necessarily agree with this, but Alina'a program is packed with a lot of transitions and other things that boost certain aspects of PCS. And it's worth mentioning that it, other than a UR 3Z, was clean.
This speak to my point earlier. Jason know he can't boost his BV to super high levels, which is why he goes for cohesive and clean programs that get the judges attention. His programs are designed to display of a lot of good basic clean skating and to play up his performance ability. I suppose one could argue he should give some of that up to work more on the quad, but they know they have more to gain in the score by trying to keep what makes him stands out.
I think Vincent is trying to improve on this area too, but it's kinda tough with 5 quads. Also the program was not clean, which can take away from the PCS. Again, ambition is good, but you got to be stratgeic too. Like you, I'm not sure, just giving my gusses.
Alina's free skate, however annoying some may find it, is done in a way where she dazzles. And skates it mostly clean on a consistent basic.
And yes reputation plays into it. I won't deny that either. Vincent's scores should go up over the course of the season.
Also, all this is to not take away what he has done. He did pull off a 4Z-3t in both programs. That's really good. He did some other quads too. That's also good. He had a strong GP debut with an2nd place FS. My main thing is that I can see that he still has scoring holes he needs to resolve to have a better shot at getting one of those Olympic spots and to make waves in the men's field.
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@Mrs. P
impressive means the over-all visional impact of skater's performance, how much they enjoyed it.
There is no point here to go deep into the bullets of ISU scoring guideline here. At this point, I really think it is just you can interpret whatever way you like to justify your fav skater and that applied to every one. Also, ISU never really stick to their rule book either.
But I think figure skating is a spectator sports, therefore, audience visual experience should matter, I mean if the product of the highest PCS (artistry) program is so difficult for an audience to appreciate, what is the point. Just so you known, Chinese fans are fully aware of Javi's tech mistakes, but many were still impressed by his over-all visual on ice.
a little reminder to USFS tho, this line of argument "since somebody did more number of transitions so their PCS is justified just because you did NOT do as many. or somebody did more number of jumps, so their higher score is justified, just because you did NOT do as many" has been used conveniently to justify some controversial(even scandalous) results (and unfortunately, it usually works)...
@karne
I think you will like this
https://www.instagram.com/p/BbHJpeWBGM4/?taken-by=hanabi0489
impressive means the over-all visional impact of skater's performance, how much they enjoyed it.
There is no point here to go deep into the bullets of ISU scoring guideline here. At this point, I really think it is just you can interpret whatever way you like to justify your fav skater and that applied to every one. Also, ISU never really stick to their rule book either.
But I think figure skating is a spectator sports, therefore, audience visual experience should matter, I mean if the product of the highest PCS (artistry) program is so difficult for an audience to appreciate, what is the point. Just so you known, Chinese fans are fully aware of Javi's tech mistakes, but many were still impressed by his over-all visual on ice.
a little reminder to USFS tho, this line of argument "since somebody did more number of transitions so their PCS is justified just because you did NOT do as many. or somebody did more number of jumps, so their higher score is justified, just because you did NOT do as many" has been used conveniently to justify some controversial(even scandalous) results (and unfortunately, it usually works)...
@karne
I think you will like this
https://www.instagram.com/p/BbHJpeWBGM4/?taken-by=hanabi0489
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2017
way i see nathan is 1st. however for the mens team anyone i believe the way the u.s. men are skating if finish in top 3 at nationals can make a case and go to the olympics.
running is vincent zhou, adam rippon, max aaron, jason brown, nathan chen; these are the on's on bets/favorites
from what i can tell as of now, and maybe 1/2 more possible through sect/regionals, challenge series/level b's
running is vincent zhou, adam rippon, max aaron, jason brown, nathan chen; these are the on's on bets/favorites
from what i can tell as of now, and maybe 1/2 more possible through sect/regionals, challenge series/level b's
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
Max and Vincent were adorable goofballs at the gala. I'm just disappointed we didn't get better shots of them flirt-dancing for the girls like they were in this video from practice (CHOKE WARNING IT'S TOO CUTE AND FUNNY)
I may have covered my eyes when they decided to cross axis right before jumping together, though. Way to give me a heart attack.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2012
And I see that hanabi's Instagram has other great stuff of Vincent 
.And of Vincent and Max together
.For starters:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BbH5J6phYem/?taken-by=hanabi0489 (I absolutely love the first :luv17: of the two photos)
(Will try to come back and edit in more links after watching the NBC recap shows airing now.)
Thanks to yyyskate.
In case anyone has trouble with the Weibo link, the same video
is embedded in a tweet:But Zagitova´s basic skating skills and IN and PE are not strong. Yes, she has a lot of TR, but it´s quantity, not quality.
Her PCS should be 10 to 15 points back from the top tier skaters. In reality, it is more than the top tier skaters right out of the gate.
Vincent´s PCS are 20 points behind. If his PCS is 10 points behind or 5 points behind, he wouldn´t need to do so much catching up.
If they grade both ladies and men on the same scale, then most girls would have 1/2 the PCS of the men. The gap in PCS wouldn´t be so ridiculous.
Her PCS should be 10 to 15 points back from the top tier skaters. In reality, it is more than the top tier skaters right out of the gate.
Vincent´s PCS are 20 points behind. If his PCS is 10 points behind or 5 points behind, he wouldn´t need to do so much catching up.
If they grade both ladies and men on the same scale, then most girls would have 1/2 the PCS of the men. The gap in PCS wouldn´t be so ridiculous.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
Simply put, their PCS is unrelated because Vincent is not competing against women and Zagitova is not competing against men; they are different skaters with different strengths and weaknesses; and they are being judged by different judging panels at different competitions. The fact that both won Junior Worlds in 2017 is not the determining factor in the PCS they receive.
Oh really? Does that mean the grading scale is different for men and women? There is only one right answer if the judging panels diverge that much. Either both are wrong, and the right answer is somewhere in the middle or one is wrong and the other judging panel is right. Where is it?
It doesn't matter if they aren't competing against each other. PCS is PCS. PCS should reward different strengths and different weaknesses. Are you saying it's hogwash?
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2014
I don't think there's any reason to be so rude about it. Personal taste differs. People who saw something impressive about Javier's performances were probably seeing something different, and valuing something different, than you did.
I'm enjoying reading the opinions about Vincent. His performances impressed me for reasons that haven't been mentioned much. But they're the least measurable qualities in figure skating, and he's certainly got to get the measurable things cleaned up. I like that he keeps the things that are important to him; he's like Jason in that way, but way less polished and with nearly six years less experience. He just turned 17 last week.
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- Mar 3, 2014
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- Aug 12, 2014
:2thumbs: Exactly! If artistry means you have to count bullet points to comprehend why something is good, then it's missed the mark for spectators, even fairly well educated ones.
Your choice of the word "enjoy" is interesting. Javier said, immediately after winning 2016 worlds, "I think the audience enjoyed it, and that's the most important thing to me."
I also think this is a big part of Jason's intent. I don't know if he's said that in so many words, but he projects it. Audiences feel it. Whether he would say most important, I wouldn't venture to guess.
I should be clear @yyyskate and @skylark that I'm not saying audience appeal shouldn't matter at all in PCS and I'd argue that a compelling performance DOES influence judges to score a skater higher on PCS. But it shouldn't be the sole factor in PCS.
The challenge for ANY skater, regardless if you have quads or not, is to figure out how to present your best self in a way that compels judges to score you well. The fact is the system is still very much subjective -- other than base value. I get why some go the base value route. But for those who cannot or do not want to, there's room for the system to boost it in other ways, it' s just a lot harder cause yes it's completely subjective.
The challenge for ANY skater, regardless if you have quads or not, is to figure out how to present your best self in a way that compels judges to score you well. The fact is the system is still very much subjective -- other than base value. I get why some go the base value route. But for those who cannot or do not want to, there's room for the system to boost it in other ways, it' s just a lot harder cause yes it's completely subjective.
Yes, the grading is different.
No, they cannot be compared.
Any argument that says that Alina Z. gets so many points for a move, and thus Vincent should get the same points for the same move...
to my mind, such an argument is hogwash.
The grading is different? Where in PCS does it say that? Is PCS criteria different for women and men? Do women have different weight scale than men? Different height scale than men? Have a seat.
In the SP, the men's PCS has a 1.0 factor vs. 0.8 factor for women.
In the FS, the men's PCS has a 2.0 factor compared to 1.6 factor for women.
This has some useful information: http://www.usfsa.org/story?id=84064
In the FS, the men's PCS has a 2.0 factor compared to 1.6 factor for women.
This has some useful information: http://www.usfsa.org/story?id=84064
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- Mar 3, 2014
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