2017-18 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[TontoK]

This is probably just me being a jerk, but I had a pretty cynical reaction to Vincent's online diary-sharing.

I genuinely enjoy and encourage athletes to share their feelings or whatever in interviews or on social media - they're human beings, and they shouldn't have to shut up and smile just because their job is figure skating instead of talking.

I just think it came off as cheesy. Talking about your words and dreams from your heart, "my heart won't betray me," etc., it's just cheesy to me. I am a cynical jerk. I also personally am made unhappy when skaters apologize to their fans for disappointing us. Skaters don't owe us anything - I don't want anybody to apologize for a bad performance. It makes me feel like they have too much negative pressure on them. Don't apologize for not meeting certain people's standards! You do you, Vincent, go at your own pace. And heck, some people will never be satisfied, either because they're haters or your skating just isn't to their taste.

I certainly hope people aren't nasty enough to send him hate directly, and that his family and coaching team are keeping him from going out of his way to read negativity online.

Well, not to be harsh, but it had a certain "2 nice 2B 4gotten" junior high school quality to it.

Of course, we have to remember that as he is coming into his own as an athlete, he's also making that transition from boy to man. At some point in that journey, you learn to guard your emotions and protect your heart. Perhaps he hasn't hit that stage yet.

Half the world has to navigate those treacherous waters, and it's not easy, even out of the spotlight.

My understanding is that the other half the world also has their own navigating to do, as well, but I cannot testify to that as I haven't lived it myself.

 

[Mrs. P]

I just remember that I limited my LiveJournal and Xanga access (remember those old millennials?!) to like 10 people cause the last thing I wanted was lots of people to see my thoughts. Obviously a lot has changed.

In any case TontoK, it doesn't matter to you right?

I find it funny that here and elsewhere people are now counting Vincent out for an Olympic spot and now Adam's the one with the chance to lock his spot in. My-oh-my how things change within a week.

 

[college pat]

congrats to all good luck at nationals to all men.

good luck to nathan, & adam at skate america

 

[Seren]

I just remember that I limited my LiveJournal and Xanga access (remember those old millennials?!) to like 10 people cause the last thing I wanted was lots of people to see my thoughts. Obviously a lot has changed.

In any case TontoK, it doesn't matter to you right?

I find it funny that here and elsewhere people are now counting Vincent out for an Olympic spot and now Adam's the one with the chance to lock his spot in. My-oh-my how things change within a week.

Oh god Xanga- why early 2000's self did I think that was a good idea. I think Vincent is just disapointed in himself and needed some way to express that. At 17 our outlets aren't always that great, I think the point was probably just that- he is disapointed and knows he is capable of more.

The US men's team isn't really any clearer than it was a month ago.

 

[Mrs. P]

Oh god Xanga- why early 2000's self did I think that was a good idea. I think Vincent is just disapointed in himself and needed some way to express that. At 17 our outlets aren't always that great, I think the point was probably just that- he is disapointed and knows he is capable of more.

The US men's team isn't really any clearer than it was a month ago.

Yeah, I definitely don't begrudge Vincent for sharing his thoughts -- more that it's kind of brave to put yourself out there, which I think is a reflection of the openness, for better or worse, of social media.

Clear as mud. I really think it will come down to U.S. Nationals, but we'll see how things look at SkAm.

 

[TontoK]

I just remember that I limited my LiveJournal and Xanga access (remember those old millennials?!) to like 10 people cause the last thing I wanted was lots of people to see my thoughts. Obviously a lot has changed.

In any case TontoK, it doesn't matter to you right?

I find it funny that here and elsewhere people are now counting Vincent out for an Olympic spot and now Adam's the one with the chance to lock his spot in. My-oh-my how things change within a week.

LOL. I didn't even keep a journal of my real thoughts, so you were braver than I.

For the record, I'm not counting Vincent out for an Olympic spot. He was on my list of Olympians at the start of the season, and he's still there.

But, I admit that his place on my list isn't as secure as it once was.

Like you, I believe the team will be decided on the basis of 1-2-3 at US Nationals, so whoever has the hot hand (or the hot skates) on that week will earn the Olympic Team.

 

[Jaana]

I just think it came off as cheesy. Talking about your words and dreams from your heart, "my heart won't betray me," etc., it's just cheesy to me. I am a cynical jerk.

Yeah, but I think it sounds genuine considering the source, a barely 17 years old (birthday was in October) teenager who is interested in writing poetry...

 

[karne]

I mean, I feel bad for Vincent. Obviously he had very high expectations of this season (because all skaters at that level do) and now he's watching it all unravel very, very quickly. It's gotta be hard, especially when you're only 17.

But the cynical part of me does suggest this is also a deflection.

And the even more cynical part knows the tech panel at US Nationals will be even softer than the one at France, which is to his advantage. Hmm.

 

[Ice Dance]

I don't think Vincent's chances have unraveled.

His scores are too high and too competitive. Defeated Jin in the FS at Finlandia. Defeated Adam head-to-head at Finlandia. Fourth in his first GP event. Highest technical score other than Shoma at his second GP event (highest base value of the event). It was a pretty crummy outing at this second GP, but doesn't erase what he has achieved. (Nor does Mirai's crummy outing at Rostelecom or Karen's crummy outing at WTT). And Vincent has a body of work. Several JGP medals, a Junior World title, a JGPF qualification, a second place at U.S. Nationals, a medal at Finlandia.

Vincent has not proven himself a favorite over Jason/Adam/Max; but Vincent is in the game. His Nationals results will matter, IMO.

Max's status is likewise, IMO. He has the competitive scores this season, a GP medal, a medal at the U.S. Classic, plenty of experience. His Nationals results will matter.

As far as Jason & Adam's status is concerned, they have the same: competitive scores and at least one GP medal this season. Can they make an argument for a superior status this season? Well, that will depend on SA and possibly the GPF.

 

[Mrs. P]

Everyone other than Nathan have similar scores (both on the low/high side). The parity rally makes it difficult to justify a BOW decision as far as naming an Olympic team. I think the Vincent/Jason thing was a bit different last season because Jason's average/season's best score was WAY above Vincent's at the time (this was before his record breaking score at Jr. Worlds) and there was the matter of 3 spots at hand.

Unless another U.S. man goes and medals at GPF with a score close to Nathan, I see a 1,2,3 nationals decision.

Where a BOW decision might matter is for someone like Jason, who has helped Team USA get three U.S. spots both times he was at Worlds. I don't think that will help him get named to an Olympic team if he finishes outside the top 3, but I can see them doing what they did in 2014 with Max Aaron -- giving him a World spot over who ever U.S. No. 3 is for the Olympics.

 

[Tavi...]

Sorry to be dumb, but what is the body of work criteria this year? I know I’ve seen it, but can’t remember where. If someone could post it or link to it I’d be grateful!

 

[skylark]

I genuinely enjoy and encourage athletes to share their feelings or whatever in interviews or on social media - they're human beings, and they shouldn't have to shut up and smile just because their job is figure skating instead of talking.

I also personally am made unhappy when skaters apologize to their fans for disappointing us. Skaters don't owe us anything - I don't want anybody to apologize for a bad performance. It makes me feel like they have too much negative pressure on them. Don't apologize for not meeting certain people's standards!

I agree in principle. I would just say (besides the fact that Vincent's 17) that family and community cultures differ in this respect. I'm not even talking about ethnicity ... just moving 1,000 miles across the USA was enough for me to feel like I'm in a slightly different culture.

In some subcultures, a sincerely felt apology means something positive; it's simply acknowledging of a mistake/failure and a statement of intention to do better or make amends. In other subcultures, it is seen as (1) a sign of weakness or lack of pride, (2) cheesy; or (3) a bid for sympathy. Other families/subcultures simply see it as meaningless, because whatever one is apologizing for is done and has consequences; saying "I'm sorry" won't change anything.

This is tangential and not a direct comparison: I'm thinking of how in Yuzuru's official statements, he always says he's sorry for the worry he puts people through and thanks them for their concern. I'm also thinking of what he said earlier this year, that he gains strength through what other people perceive as pressure from Japanese fans. It's a positive thing for him. Just my two cents.

 

[ice coverage]

Sorry to be dumb, but what is the body of work criteria this year? I know I’ve seen it, but can’t remember where. If someone could post it or link to it I’d be grateful!

Are you thinking of leafygreen's post in the U.S. Ladies thread?

http://goldenskate.com/forum/showth...dies-Skating&p=1850648&viewfull=1#post1850648​

leafy quoted from the members-only USFS site -- not only about tiers, but also about trending, median/mean data, consistency, reliability, etc. All very interesting .

---

Good luck to Ross, Adam, Nathan at Skate America :yay:.

And to Krasnozhon at Tallinn Trophy.

 

[Tavi...]

Are you thinking of leafygreen's post in the U.S. Ladies thread?

http://goldenskate.com/forum/showth...dies-Skating&p=1850648&viewfull=1#post1850648​

leafy quoted from the members-only USFS site -- not only about tiers, but also about trending, median/mean data, consistency, reliability, etc. All very interesting .

---

Good luck to Ross, Adam, Nathan at Skate America :yay:.

And to Krasnozhon at Tallinn Trophy.

Thank you so much.

 

[mrrice]

Nathan and Adam just finished 1,2 at Skate America and I thought this thread needed to be on page #1.....

 

[Mrs. P]

Also worth noting that earlier today Alexei Krasnozhon won silver at Tallinn Trophy! Congrats to him! I haven't seen videos of his programs...

 

[mrrice]

Also worth noting that earlier today Alexei Krasnozhon won silver at Tallinn Trophy! Congrats to him! I haven't seen videos of his programs...

Was this a Senior Event???

 

[princessalica]

Yes, he skated really well. It was obviously a b event but he was 3rd in the short and 2nd in the long.

 

[TontoK]

Also worth noting that earlier today Alexei Krasnozhon won silver at Tallinn Trophy! Congrats to him! I haven't seen videos of his programs...

I do not view this simply as a side-note.

If Alexei competes as a senior at US Nationals, he will already have earned technical minimums in an ISU Senior event.

This will eliminate the possibility of his missing an Olympic/World team on the basis on NOT having technical minimums... we all remember the Vincent Zhou situation last season.

On another thread, someone wondered if any of the top US juniors would compete as seniors, and my response was "Why not? Have you seen how some of the senior men have skated recently?"

While I don't see it as a probability, it's certainly possible that one of these very promising junior men could skate lights out, and more established senior men skate poorly.

It's not like anyone really thought Vincent would be US silver medalist last year.

Edit to add: I'm assuming that Alexei did, in fact, meet the tech minimum. I'd also be interested in seeing a comparison of men's senior scoring to see how Alexei's scores stack up against recent performances by Max, Vincent, and Jason. Just for laughs.

 

[el henry]

I *believe* that Alex K. already had senior minimums from the Philly (Liberty) comp, which was a senior international comp.:agree:

That said, I'm glad he did so well at a Senior B. Alex K. is my guilty pleasure. He can't spin, he digs into the ice like a hockey player, and throws himself into jumps like a tight end. And I still love me some Alex K. He could surprise at Nats, for sure, but as Mrs. P so astutely pointed out earlier, he is not a US citizen, so he won't be on the Oly team.