2017-18 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating | Page 56 | Golden Skate

2017-18 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

I listened to his interview and didn’t get that impression at all.

He was injured last season. Vincent and Jason had strong showings at JWC and Worlds, respectively. He trains with someone who’s not only a shoo-in for the team but is being touted as an Olympic gold medal contender. I’d guess that coming back from injury, he felt like he had to force his way back into the conversation. To his credit, he’s done just that.

Given that Jason, Max, and Vincent all underperformed at their second GPs, the fact that Adam did so well makes his position quite strong at the moment, I would think.

Agree completely. Adam had a Herculean uphill climb to reach where he is right now.

In my opinion, he gets an extra silver star on his A paper, just because of the horrible things that happened :roll9:as he was preparing himself on the ice for his FS yesterday. I was sitting in the section where there was debris on the ice and the first few rows of people where hollering at him and pointing. He was so focused that he didn't hear a thing. When he finally did, he was sent around the arena by the judges to pick up more debris. Then, he finally was at center ice and the referee blew the whistle for one more thing.

Poor Adam was so rattled at that point that he skated over to where Raf was standing. They must have perfect intuitive understanding:love: of each other in that moment, because Raf gave his big smile and a sentence and happy send-off, and that was clearly enough and perfect for Adam to skate confidently back out to center ice and give that performance.:luv17:

So happy for Adam! And with those two skates, he so deserves the accolades! :rock: :hap10: :dance3:
 
Agree completely. Adam had a Herculean uphill climb to reach where he is right now.

In my opinion, he gets an extra silver star on his A paper, just because of the horrible things that happened :roll9:as he was preparing himself on the ice for his FS yesterday. I was sitting in the section where there was debris on the ice and the first few rows of people where hollering at him and pointing. He was so focused that he didn't hear a thing. When he finally did, he was sent around the arena by the judges to pick up more debris. Then, he finally was at center ice and the referee blew the whistle for one more thing.

Poor Adam was so rattled at that point that he skated over to where Raf was standing. They must have perfect intuitive understanding:love: of each other in that moment, because Raf gave his big smile and a sentence and happy send-off, and that was clearly enough and perfect for Adam to skate confidently back out to center ice and give that performance.:luv17:

So happy for Adam! And with those two skates, he so deserves the accolades! :rock: :hap10: :dance3:

Agreed. While Adam isn't my favorite skater I am so impressed by how much he has improved as a competitor this year. I don't think you'd have seen him this focused even 3 years ago.
 
Congrats to Adam for winning the Silver medal, winning the LP and making the GPF!

IMO the best team for the US in Korea is Nathan, Adam and Jason. We will have to wait
and see how the placements at their Nationals play out. Hopefully all three will be on the podium.
If Vincent or Max plays spoiler and gets on the podium (unless they win) I would not be surprised if the US
still goes with Nathan, Jason and Adam.
 
my thought get through rest of season with no more injuries and heal and rest up.

i do think nathan, adam -provide shoulder heals will be on the olympic team who else is a toss up.
some many men can qualify.
 
Knowing Nathan he won't like losing to a fellow US skater even if it was only one portion of the competition. How long has it been since a US man has beaten Nathan in either the SP or LP? US Nationals 2016?
 
Knowing Nathan he won't like losing to a fellow US skater even if it was only one portion of the competition. How long has it been since a US man has beaten Nathan in either the SP or LP? US Nationals 2016?

TDF last year, where Adam finished ahead of Nathan.

I think USFS will try its hardest to avoid deviating from the top 3 at Nationals. It's just not worth the headaches and controversy if it can be at all avoided. If the 3rd spot is between Max, Jason, and Vincent I can't really see a compelling argument for going against Nationals placements for any of them.
 
some insight from German Eurosport commentators (who work in the medical field) about Adam's shoulder injury:

basically: "it could have been a subluxation, it's not a full dislocation for sure, because with a full dislocation you can't continue skating - as seen with Samohin - and you can't put it back by yourself (except if you have extremely loose tendons, but then those patients can't do quads). With a subluxation it feels for a second like a dislocation, but then it snaps back."

To me it makes sense that it was probably a subluxation, which is a lot better than a dislocated shoulder - healing time should be minimal!
 
some insight from German Eurosport commentators (who work in the medical field) about Adam's shoulder injury:

basically: "it could have been a subluxation, it's not a full dislocation for sure, because with a full dislocation you can't continue skating - as seen with Samohin - and you can't put it back by yourself (except if you have extremely loose tendons, but then those patients can't do quads). With a subluxation it feels for a second like a dislocation, but then it snaps back."

To me it makes sense that it was probably a subluxation, which is a lot better than a dislocated shoulder - healing time should be minimal!

Not that it really makes any difference, since both are injuries that no one would want, but in the American medical field, a subluxation and a dislocation are both referred to as "dislocated shoulders".

A subluxation is referred to as "partial dislocation", but the typical lay person, and even medical professional, is going to say dislocation. And in American medicine, both are treated by immobility, unless of course you are an elite skater.;)

The American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons on "Dislocated Shoulder"
 
I think USFS will try its hardest to avoid deviating from the top 3 at Nationals. It's just not worth the headaches and controversy if it can be at all avoided. If the 3rd spot is between Max, Jason, and Vincent I can't really see a compelling argument for going against Nationals placements for any of them.

Agree that they'll lean toward top 3.

To reverse the question: for whom would they go out on a limb and reach beyond the top 3 for the oly team?
Nathan, for sure. If he's in 4th, he's still going to be on the team.
Adam has some claim, depending upon his performance at the GPF. (and maybe who's 3rd??)
But anyone else should expect to make the team only by making the top 3.
 
Post GP Olympic spots thoughts

Well after this GP, things are a little bit clearer, though there's still plenty of room for surprises. First of all, in the spirit of Thanksgiving, I am grateful that the U.S. men, despite their ups-and-downs seem to be fighting for these three spots. Two men have made GPF, two others have medaled and one has been right outside it. That is a far better result than the U.S. lady counterparts.

For now going to focus on the Olympic contenders today. After GPF/Golden Spin, I'll do an overall field report and include numbers. :)

1. Nathan Chen.
Season's best scores: 293.79 (1); 104.12 (1) 195.92 (1)
Average scores: 281.57 (1) 98.82 (1) 183.64 (1)
TES (best): 59.56 (1) 104.85 (1)
TES (average) 54.84 (1) 95.59 (2)
PCS (best): 44.40 (2); 88.40 (3)
PCS (average): 43.98 (2); 87.83 (2)
* Highlights: His win at Rostelecom Cup. His SP at Skate America. He showed improvements in his performance
* Lowlights: The free skate at Skate America. He did two 4Zs, but that's about all I remember from that performance. Toward the 1/3 end of the skate he pretty much just became a jumping bean.
* Assets: The jumps of course. But the improvements in his performance and programs have leveled him up.
* Achilles heel: Equipment issues. This did him in at Worlds and it caused him problems at Skate America.
* Chances making the Olympic team (from 1-10, with 1 being heck no and 10 being absolute lock): 9.5. Given his performance in the FS, Raf's odd hints about "private issues" in his quotes to the media, the weird equipment and his constant changes of layout, i have allowed a 0.5 point possibility that he will not make the Olympic Team, and I might be being too stingy. He is probably a lock and unless he doesn't show up for Nationals, he's going to get in.

2. Adam Rippon
Season's best scores: 266.45 (2); 89.04 (3) 177.41 (2)
Average scores: 259.44 (2) 85.89 (3) 173.55 (3)
TES (best) 45.04 (6); 91.46 (4)
TES (average) 43.38 (4); 87.41 (4)
PCS (best): 44.00 (3); 88.50 (2)
PCS (average):42.51 (3) 86.47 (3)
*Highlights: NHK FS. Credible attempt on the 4Z (though <) and clean jumps everywhere else. Making GPF for the second year in the row.
*Lowlights: The shoulder dislocation in the Skate America FS. That's about it, which is pretty noteworthy.
*Assets: Adam's been a well-balanced skater looking at the TES/PCS scores, compared to the other three guys not named Nathan. His consistency and confidence is noteworthy and he sells his programs. He hasn't missed any jumps other than the 4Z and has introduced an impressive 3F-3Lo combo.
*Achilles heel: He dislocated his shoulder and he's had issues with his shoulder previously. For now, it seems he'll be OK, but I hope he'll be careful. I'd also say that relative to some of the top men, his choreography is relatively simple and he doesn't have the best skating skills. The 4Z seems hit or miss still.
*Chances of making the Olympic team: 7. Adam's really upped his stock by being the only other U.S. man (other than Nathan) to medal at both his GPs. He may have a body of work argument, especially if he does well at GPF, but he still has to perform well at U.S. Nationals. In 2014, he was the top scoring man in the GP leading up to Nationals and sadly we saw what happened. I am optimistic for a better outcome. We'll see how he does at GPF.

3. Jason Brown
Season's best scores: 261.14 (4) 90.71 (2) 176.58 (3)
Average scores: 255.66 (3) 86.36 (2) 169.30 (4)
TES (best): 45.64 (4); 85.07 (5)
TES (average) 41.83 (7) 79.52 (5)
PCS (best): 45.07 (1); 91.80 (1)
PCS (average):44.87 (1); 90.77 (1)
*Highlights: Silver medal at Skate Canada, including a 90+ short program. His 176+ Lombardia Trophy FS remains his highest score. He also scored 90+ PCS at both Lombardia Trophy and Skate Canada.
*Lowlights: NHK Trophy, especially the free. After being squarely in the 170 range, he dropped by 10 points in the FS at that competition. He also had problems on his 3A and didn't try a quad.
*Assets: Jason has two very complex and intricate programs which show different sides of his personality. The judges seem to be rewarding him for it. He his the best spins and steps in the international field. While his NHK Trophy performance was not great, he did score +2.00 GOE in his Stsq4, only two other skaters have done that. And when he does the jumps, he can rack up +GOE points. He also seems to have an ability to add -3T, -1L-3S and 1L-3F to many of his jumps. He actually improvised at the end of his NHK Trophy performance and did a 3Lo-1L-3S, which as far as I know he's never done in competition before. His PCS scores are also in the range of the top men (and is still the highest among the U.S. men), in spite of his technical arsenal, which gives him a bit of a buffer compared to some. If he gets the TES/PCS balanced he can potentially score high. But that is a big IF at the moment.
*Achilles heel: Jason has been very inconsistent on his jumps this season. They range from minor (step out on 3Lo) to major (falling on both his 3As at NHK Trophy FS). And he still hasn't got the quad. His average TES is downright terrible compared to the other contenders.
*Chances of making the Olympic Team: 6. I will give him better odds than the other two, because he can turn in good scores when he does at least 90-95 percent of the jumps, i.e. miss the quad, but hit everything else or even a perfect quadless program. And I don't think it's out of the question we'll see a clean quad from him, as his practices seem to indicate. He also tends to peak at just the right time. Past seasons show that Jason tends to peak later in the season and give everyone (i.e. fans) fits in the meanwhile. However, he can't depend on PCS to bail him out if those jumps are MIA and I believe body of work won't help him this time. That said, he also still has a (small) shot of ending up at GPF as the first alternate, he may have a chance to change the conversation before Nationals.

Max Aaron
Season's best: 261.56 (3) 86.06 (3); 176.58 (4)
Average score: 252.82 (4) 82.60 (4) 170.21 (3)
TES (best): 48.41 (2); 94.90 (3)
TES (average): 44.82 (2); 91.40 (3)
PCS (best): 38.61 (5) 80.60 (5)
PCS (average) 38.12 (6) 78.81 (5)

Highlights: Cup of China bronze medal, where he won the free skate beating Javier Fernandez, Boyang Jin and Mikhail Kolyada.
Lowlights: He had issues at Internationaux de France, though it wasn't a complete meltdown, he was far from being even close to making GPF by finishing 7th.
Assets: He has upped his jump arsenal, adding the 4T with some good consistency and scoring high TES. He also has two good programs that he seems to enjoy performing. His overall consistency, IdF aside, also seems to be improving.
Achilles heel: Max's PCS remain low -- he has only broken 80 once and that was at U.S. International Classic. And while his BV is strong, he continues to make little errors that add up in +GOE.
Chances of making the Olympic Team: 5.5. I think him and Jason have the opposite issues (Max in PCS/GOE; Jason in TES/BV) and it will be a matter who resolves their weaknesses at U.S. Nationals. Max hasn't beat Jason at U.S. Nationals since 2013 when he won the National title, but trends can quickly change if Jason does poorly (see NHK Trophy and Adam Rippon). I think that Max could TES his way to the Olympic team.

Vincent Zhou:
Season's bests: 256.66 (5); 80.23 (10); 176.43 (5)
Average: 242.96 (5); 74.15 (9); 168.05 (5)
TES (best) 45.66 (3); 102.35 (2)
TES (average) 39.47 (8) 96.30 (1)
PCS (best): 36.57 (9); 75.94 (8)
PCS (average) 36.01 (9); 73.51 (9)

Highlights: Cup of China, where he racked up 2nd place and the highest TES of the competition.
Lowlights: All his SPs this seasons, the worst coming at Internationaux de France when he dropped to the 60s.
Assets: His jumps. He has scored fairly high TES in the FS and his season's best TES is the second highest among the U.S. men (and his TES is actually the highest in spite of the errors). If he does do all those quads his score can be big.
Achilles heel: Again, the SP issue -- for perspective his SP TES average is close to Jason Brown's, who obviously isn't attempting 2 quads in the SP. He does UR some of his jumps, though not enough for it to drop super drastically. His PCS is also low, even considering newbie senior status.
Chances of making the Olympic Team: 5. I want to keep him pretty close to the others cause I think with a few quads and a better SP performance he can surprise, just like he did last year. Will Jr. Worlds Vincent return to U.S. Nationals? We'll see (and it's worth noting that at Jr. Worlds he underperformed in the SP before crushing it in the FS, so he truly is not a great SP skater for whatever reason).

Tl;dr: Nathan's a lock. Adam has the best odds at the moment and the fight for spot 3 seems to be between Jason, Max and Vincent.

Season's best score average (between season's best in Overall,SP,FS, TES, PCS)
Nathan Chen 1.43
Jason Brown 2.86
Adam Rippon 3.29
Max Aaron 3.57
Vincent Zhou 5.71

Average ranking score (average of the averages in the above categories)
Nathan Chen 1.43
Adam Rippon 3.00
Jason Brown 3.29
Max Aaron 3.86
Vincent Zhou 6.57

Onward to GPF (Nathan, Adam) /Golden Spin (for Alexander Johnson)
 
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Random, fun thoughts from Lake Placid:

1. It's amusing how unobtrusive Nathan is during the practices. I had to actively look for him. I think he does this on purpose .... partly, it's his personality not to put himself forward but to be happy and calm when he IS noticed. :love: He dresses down; always in a dull black long-sleeved t-shirt that seems loose like a sweat shirt, and black pants.

2. Adam is completely the opposite! For FS practice, he showed up in his ocean-wave sparkly shirt, and was just as flambouyant in the other practices. He's like, I'm here ... and I'm really really happy to be here skatin' and puttin' on a show for all y'all.:love:

ETA: I love them both to bits!
 
^ Thanks for the live reports. It's interesting to hear the contrast between the two, skylark!

Anyway, a bit of fun news from Jeremy Abbott, he choreographed a program for Daisuke Takahashi! What a high compliment to Jeremy: https://www.instagram.com/p/Bb-9ndxhf3f/

Also, please check out my Olympic spots analysis on the previous page, I'd love people's thoughts. :)
 
^ Thanks for the live reports. It's interesting to hear the contrast between the two, skylark!

Anyway, a bit of fun news from Jeremy Abbott, he choreographed a program for Daisuke Takahashi! What a high compliment to Jeremy: https://www.instagram.com/p/Bb-9ndxhf3f/

Also, please check out my Olympic spots analysis on the previous page, I'd love people's thoughts. :)

I love me some Mrs P.

I've got no problems with your analysis. There's nothing there to disagree with, at least in the larger scope of things.

I'm still not sold on Jason performing up to snuff at USNats, but no need to argue about that. Time will tell.
 
I'd also say that relative to some of the top men, his choreography is relatively simple and he doesn't have the best skating skills.

THANK YOU FOR SOMEBODY OTHER THAN ME POINTING THIS OUT. It drives me bonkers that he gets one hell of a free pass for this and showered in PCS like he's Jason.


Lowlights: He had issues at Internationaux de France, though it wasn't a complete meltdown, he was far from being even close to making GPF by finishing 7th.

I actually thought a highlight of IdF was him holding it together and having a brilliant second half of the FS...unlike Vincent. The lowlight was definitely watching his PCS get dumped on by the judges there. That was appalling. Frankly, his PCS this season has been appalling in general. It's almost like the international judges are just like "what are you doing, we don't care how much you've improved, you're not supposed to improve, stay in your box."
 
Just need some clarification.

When picking the Olympic team, are they going only the nationals results or the 'body of work' throughout the season?
 
Just need some clarification.

When picking the Olympic team, are they going only the nationals results or the 'body of work' throughout the season?

They have the option to account for body of work, but they could just as easily go with Nationals, given that it is the top event in the top tier.

In recent years, they've only deviated from Nationals results once -- when Jason (3rd) was chosen from Worlds over Vincent (2nd). But as far as Olympics with the exception of Todd Eldridge getting an injury bye back in 1992, I think, I think USFS has just gone by Nationals results (though in 2014, 3rd place finisher Max got Worlds over Jason).

IMO, I don't think anyone other than Nathan has a body of work argument to save them if they're not top 3 at Nationals. Adam, if he does well at GPF, may be able to sneak in if he gets 4th.
 
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It just looks more and more like Nathan Adam and Jason. I'm not invested in any of the men. This is what I feel the season is shaping up to give us.
 
Raise your hand if on Nov. 27, 2013, you predicted Jeremy Abbott to end up on the Olympic team. If you did, I should talk to you about your GPF predictions, cause I don't think most people would have...

At that point in the season, we didn't have a Nathan really but four different men who won medals on the GP: Adam, Max, Jason and Jeremy.

(Okay Ic8Rabbit, I know YOU always believed in Jeremy, ;))

I still think there are four men for two spots. Fun how the more things change, the more they stay the same.
 
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Maybe they will also consider which of the US men can deliver the FS in the most consistent and high-scoring way...I think that the USFS will have Nathan skate the SP and the second men doing the rest.
How do the four men compare to this, so far? However, I think Adam is the one so far making the best claim to the second olympic spot, the third remains wide open.
 
Raise your hand if on Nov. 27, 2013, you predicted Jeremy Abbott to end up on the Olympic team. If you did, I should talk to you about your GPF predictions, cause I don't think most people would have...

(Okay Ic8Rabbit, I know YOU always believed in Jeremy, ;))

I still think there are four men for two spots.

And even picking one cause you love them might not have been a stretch (I don’t know, because it was Jason who brought “back” to following skating in 2014), but can you tell me who in November 13, 2013 would have predicted Jeremy AND Jason for the 2014 Olympic team?

Anyone?;)
 
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