2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

[flipsydoodle]

Evgenia -
“Withdraw from GP final!! It’s not worth aggravating your injury!”
“Why did she skate at the Gala?” “Because she didn’t want to let the fans dow-“ “NO SHE SHOULD HAVE SKIPPED IT! AND SKIPPED THE WHOLE COMPETITION!!!”

Ashley -
“Like, seriously, I KNOW that she’s injured and I KNOW that it’s important to preserve her body for OG’s/Nats and yeah she was in a tough spot having to decide whether to go for a GP final spot or try and, you know, prevent her body falling apart....but you know what? I really just think the best thing for any injured person to do it just push on through the pain, I mean nothing bad EVER comes from exacerbating injury, does it? Besides, she was probably faking...”

Anyone else noticed this??

I noticed that one didn't withdraw and the other did. One gave a statement saying Skate America was low on her priority list and suggesting it wasn't an important competition in the scheme of things, the other was gracious and respectful of the GP opportunity.

You didn't hear A's rink-side interview?

No comparison, really.

 

[flipsydoodle]

The whole boot withdrawal thing reminded me of Tonya Harding at the Olympics. I thought for a moment Ashley was going to put her skate-clad foot on the judges' table. The bling-y stuff was so Tonya Harding, too.

 

[charlotte14]

Please... I have to say at some point of their career, a GP does not mean much. I am fed up with the political correctness being displayed. The truth is, if it were Olympic, even if Ashley were hurt 10 times worse than this she would still try to finish the perfomance. But I do not fault her for that. I totally understand and respect her choice.

 

[Moxiejan]

If this event was low on A's priority list because she's all about the Olympics, she should have withdrawn weeks ago, so another skater could have taken her spot.

She wasn't injured weeks ago.

If A thinks so little of the Skate America competition that it's not worth her while, she's being extremely disrespectful to the competitors who showed up and the others who really wanted the opportunity to compete there. To most competitors, this is a major competition and is taken seriously.

She never said SA wasn't worth her time. In fact, she said (before injury) that it was important for her to do well there & make the Final. Even though injured, she completed the SP and attempted the LP. Her situation was similar to that of Hanyu, who attempted to compete in a home-country GP so he could make the Final, but who eventually had to WD because Nationals & Olympics were more important.

 

[andromache]

Being an older skater is a challenge. Kostner has beautiful skating skills--that means less having to muscle through things, less having to work on elements over and over and, overall, being less prone to injury. Wagner's never been a great technical skater--and now she's hit that point where she doesn't recover as quickly and has to train that much harder to keep up her stamina. I honestly think she's doing her best, but her deficiencies as a skater are catching up with her and it's getting harder to compensate.

I see no reason to beat up on her about it. In some sense, I think harshing on Ashley is more about the overall issues among U.S. Ladies--a lot is being demanded of 26-year-old skater who was never in the Michelle Kwan category.

This. She's obviously in amazing shape and trains her butt off, but she's 26 and has plenty of wear and tear on her body, and she doesn't have very good basics to fall back on. I'm sure it's extremely frustrating for her, especially in an Olympic season. All she can really do at this point is continue to work hard and try her best to pull it all together when it counts most.

To those of you whining about her motives for WDing or skating injured - I'm 99% that if Ashley had made a different decision, y'all would be finding ways to disparage her anyway. If she withdrew before the competition, people would've said she wasn't prepared and a liar about her injury. If she withdrew before the LP, people would've said she just didn't want to lose after her disappointing short, If she fought through the pain to deliver what would've been a really bad LP and then mentioned the injury after the fact, people would tell her stop making excuses.

When you've been around for as many years as Ashley and has as many ups and downs as Ashley has had, sure, the sound bytes pile up and sound like a load of excuses. But really, it's just that she's no Michelle Kwan or Evgenia Medvedeva. She's an imperfect skater with a history of imperfect performances. Even if you don't like her skating, she's still worthy of respect as a hard-working athlete who has carried US skating on her back.

 

[skylark]

To those of you whining about her motives for WDing or skating injured - I'm 99% that if Ashley had made a different decision, y'all would be finding ways to disparage her anyway. If she withdrew before the competition, people would've said she wasn't prepared and a liar about her injury. If she withdrew before the LP, people would've said she just didn't want to lose after her disappointing short, If she fought through the pain to deliver what would've been a really bad LP and then mentioned the injury after the fact, people would tell her stop making excuses.

All of this is, unfortunately, exactly right. After the competitions ended yesterday, I took the evening to pay attention to Mr Skylark and enjoy dinner out. But I knew what I was going to find here. By so many people, Ashley is d-mned if she does and cursed if she doesn't.

Even if you don't like her skating, she's still worthy of respect as a hard-working athlete who has carried US skating on her back.

This is the crux of the matter. People who don't like her skating take any excuse to bash her and have no compassion at all. (they're jealous, most likely.)

Well, she's a hero of US figure skating and she's valiant, while also managing to be funny and optimistic and kind.

 

[GrandmaCC]

I noticed that one didn't withdraw and the other did. One gave a statement saying Skate America was low on her priority list and suggesting it wasn't an important competition in the scheme of things, the other was gracious and respectful of the GP opportunity.

You didn't hear A's rink-side interview?

No comparison, really.

No, I haven’t as yet (different time zone, only just got to see the skate). If I missed something incredibly unsportsmanlike then I’ll eat humble pie. Although as others have pointed out, the USA team are coached to within an inch of their lives regarding interviews so even they have to be taken with a grain of salt.
I must say though that Ashley to me seemed incredibly respectful of the GP opportunity just by virtue of her not wanting to withdraw, trying to fight and get through her skate. I guess everyone has a different opinion on that (and I say that in all seriousness, I think things like whether we played team sports growing up/in college that could see a withdrawal give another team a week off, or an individual one where everything rests on you, how much injury we’ve each competed through and so on & so on all comes into it). Maybe age comes also into it? At 26 one is far more cognisant of their frailties than at 18 and more likely to err on the side of “not dying”.

One thing that I don’t think anyone has touched on when asking why Ashley never seems to mention her issues prior to competing is the whole “not wanting to appear weak and unreliable” thing. Aly Raisman spoke of it in her book. Given the subjective selective criteria, it could well be that Ashley wanted to - or was told to - play down her injuries etc prior to a comp and hope she could skate through it - that way, she’s a hero if she does well (muscle tear @ worlds) or has an excuse if does poorly. Worth a thought.

I think we all do need to show a little more respect for these athletes though, and concern for their safety. Look at how Karen Chen just bounced back up after a fall that would’ve sent half of us off to get a hip replacement! As far as I’m concerned, if a skater makes the call that they’re not as prepared to hurl their body through the air and slam it back down on the ice as they thought, I respect that.

 

[R.D.]

Out of all the things one could criticize Wagner for...the motives behind this WD really isn't one of them TBH, IMO. Nothing unusual or strange about what she did, even if it came as a bit of a surprise to those of us not intimately following her training.

I'm not her fan, but in the current state of things, US Skating needs her healthy pronto. It's in both her interest and theirs to do what she can to rest and recuperate.

 

[Alex D]

I skimped through the last few pages and I am honestly a bit confused.

Any athlete has to make choices and some fans might not like them, as they paid a lot of money or whatever. Fact is, however, that an Athlete doesn´t need to give you a reason why he or she does something. It´s not anyone's body or career, but of the athlete.

And yes, it is very likely that you step on the ice, pitch ... and at one point you feel a pain, a muscle problem or just dizzy. It would be unwise, to just ignore that and this is the first thing you teach young kids. Body awareness, reading the signs it gives you. You can feel totally ok, but one second later there is a problem and even if it´s nothing serious in the end, consulting a doctor is advisable.

Given, there are athletes who ignore everything, Steffi Graf has been such a person for years and she paid a hefty price for that. How many more Slams would she had won, if she would have been wiser... In tennis we have so many players that compete injured and I don´t know of anyone, where it truly paid off. FS is not any different and the risk of serious injuries is even higher, as you falling on the ice because your leg can´t hold your body, could lead to serious head injuries.

So ya, don´t be so harsh on your athletes, you act as if they must win medals for you... that is just silly.

 

[skylark]

No, I haven’t as yet (different time zone, only just got to see the skate). If I missed something incredibly unsportsmanlike then I’ll eat humble pie.

You didn't. Ms. flipsydoodle tried to put false words into Ashley's mouth. In case anyone isn't aware, Ashley did NOT give "a statement saying Skate America was low on her priority list and suggesting it wasn't an important competition in the scheme of things," as Ms. F. claimed.

I must say though that Ashley to me seemed incredibly respectful of the GP opportunity just by virtue of her not wanting to withdraw, trying to fight and get through her skate.

:agree: Exactly. Also, she gave interviews right after Skate Canada saying she would do everything in her power to address the issues she faced at SC, and be ready for Skate America. She also said she hoped to make the GP final.

Any figure skating observer who says Ashley doesn't value these events either isn't paying attention, or has an ulterior motive in spreading around vicious untruths.

One thing that I don’t think anyone has touched on when asking why Ashley never seems to mention her issues prior to competing is the whole “not wanting to appear weak and unreliable” thing.

Maybe that isn't her motivation, either. She said last year at SA that even though she was injured going into 2016 Worlds, she "didn't want that to be her story." I can understand that. She tries to keep a positive viewpoint and build her confidence going into any competition ... not for show, but for herself. She didn't want to hear "oh, Ashley's injured" every time she turned around, going into the event.

 

[Icey]

Not really,

Many of the most successful coaches were also competitive skaters who weren't too successful while competing themselves, including Eteri Tutberidze, Frank Carroll, Tatiana Tarasova, Marina Zueva, etc.

Tarasova's skating career was ended when she was 18 with a career-ending injury. She actually only competed three years before that happened.

 

[crazydreamer]

Ashley seems to be playing perception games this season. The return to the Moulin Rouge problem, the problems with her jumps, the injury and withdrawal....she is coming up with excuses to justify her disappointing decisions or performances that sound good, but it seems like she is trying to mask problems to keep her name in contention as a U.S. favorite and to keep up her top tier PCS. My speculation is that, behind the scenes, she is having a lot of problems, perhaps just due to age and the recurrent effect of her concussions. While I'm disappointed this season, I do not blame her for anything--she is doing what is best for her, as she is entitled to do.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

Correct me if I’m wrong: only one more competition before nationals for the US ladies to prove themselves, and that’s Golden Spin. A major opportunity for Bradie , Starr, and who’s the other?

Other that that, nationals is the LAST CHANCE.

 

[R.D.]

Ashley seems to be playing perception games this season. The return to the Moulin Rouge problem, the problems with her jumps, the injury and withdrawal....she is coming up with excuses to justify her disappointing decisions or performances that sound good, but it seems like she is trying to mask problems to keep her name in contention as a U.S. favorite and to keep up her top tier PCS. My speculation is that, behind the scenes, she is having a lot of problems, perhaps just due to age and the recurrent effect of her concussions. While I'm disappointed this season, I do not blame her for anything--she is doing what is best for her, as she is entitled to do.

Thing is, 10+ years of the elite grind are (finally) catching up to her. She’s honestly been fortunate to have had such a long career. The timing sucks, but it is what it is...and if her body is failing her, she must accept it. Like Kwan in 2006.

 

[Moxiejan]

Correct me if I’m wrong: only one more competition before nationals for the US ladies to prove themselves, and that’s Golden Spin. A major opportunity for Bradie , Starr, and who’s the other?

The third one is Karen. I did read somewhere last night that Bradie's team is considering a WD from Golden Spin. Really, with her strong showing at SA, it would make sense to have that be her momentum going into Nationals. Maybe U.S. could give Courtney one more shot there, but it's probably too late for a substitution.

 

[Icey]

Was USFSA advised of Ashely's injury prior to the competition? Like some above, i sense Raf is exasperated with her. There is always something sad about seeing an athlete stay too long at the fair, but we shouldn't forget the wonderful times they brought us when they were in top form. Ashely stagnated and , in this sport, that is dangerous and the athlete does get left in the dust, as Frank put it. Maybe age had something to do with it; maybe the constant pressure and sacrifice and wear and tear on the body took its toll. It's a hard life and I will never forget that for awhile she subsisted on peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.

What was the black thing she had on her ankle?

I hope Mirai makes the Olympic team, but I have to say her programs are missing many of the intricacies Of Bradies', unless she has added some . Perhaps, as a result of the 3 A. With regard to Bradies' music, I wish they would leave off the beginning vocal part; the rest is good.

 

[andromache]

What was the black thing she had on her ankle?

I hope Mirai makes the Olympic team, but I have to say her programs are missing many of the intricacies Of Bradies', unless she has added some . Perhaps, as a result of the 3 A. With regard to Bradies' music, I wish they would leave off the beginning vocal part; the rest is good.

The black thing on her ankle was a wrap over the infection, I believe.

Mirai's programs are disappointingly empty. However, they still manage to read as more mature than Bradie's, by virtue of the music alone. That said, Bradie's programs are juniorish, but totally fine for this season.

Polina Edmunds became the future of US figure skating after she was fairly well-received in 2014, but she really just stagnated after that point. Here's hoping that, whatever happens throughout the rest of this season, she gets support in her continued development.

 

[Ender]

I hope Mirai makes the Olympic team, but I have to say her programs are missing many of the intricacies Of Bradies', unless she has added some . Perhaps, as a result of the 3 A. With regard to Bradies' music, I wish they would leave off the beginning vocal part; the rest is good.

I was feeling desperate during Bradies’s skate especially her FS, that step sequence scream “below average connection to music”. I am not saying Nagasu is an excellent performer or so, but her programs still look more mature in my eyes and I saw her live so I know what I am talking about. I hope Nagasu will be sent to Olympic.

 

[RobinA]

This. She's obviously in amazing shape and trains her butt off, but she's 26 and has plenty of wear and tear on her body, and she doesn't have very good basics to fall back on. I'm sure it's extremely frustrating for her, especially in an Olympic season. All she can really do at this point is continue to work hard and try her best to pull it all together when it counts most.

To those of you whining about her motives for WDing or skating injured - I'm 99% that if Ashley had made a different decision, y'all would be finding ways to disparage her anyway. If she withdrew before the competition, people would've said she wasn't prepared and a liar about her injury. If she withdrew before the LP, people would've said she just didn't want to lose after her disappointing short, If she fought through the pain to deliver what would've been a really bad LP and then mentioned the injury after the fact, people would tell her stop making excuses.

When you've been around for as many years as Ashley and has as many ups and downs as Ashley has had, sure, the sound bytes pile up and sound like a load of excuses. But really, it's just that she's no Michelle Kwan or Evgenia Medvedeva. She's an imperfect skater with a history of imperfect performances. Even if you don't like her skating, she's still worthy of respect as a hard-working athlete who has carried US skating on her back.

This too. I am hugely NOT an Ashley fan, but she has hung in there, worked, and tried to improve problem areas. I believe she is pretty much as good as she's going to get. I respect her as an athlete, and ultimately it his her career that will be affected by her skating injured or faking an injury or withdrawing before the comp or withdrawing during the comp or lying about an injury... Ladies skating in the U.S. in recent years has been a bit shaky and Ashley has been there to bring in some helpful results. She's actually been pretty consistent over the years placement-wise and has seen many a "next great US lady" come and go. So whatever as far as excuses. She's been an asset to the program, which hasn't exactly been setting the skating world on fire lately.

 

[evasorange]

I also think it was a brilliant strategy to use the line "I've never withdrawn from a competition before", if it was indeed a strategy. How quickly and clearly she had this talking point ready, immediately after getting off the ice. What a perfect time to withdraw from a competition and use such a line, the last grand prix competition of your career, when you already did win a medal at a previous event (however weak that field may have been to win the medal). Making it on the Olympic team is of the utmost importance and superficial things like this will play into the minds of the judges at Nationals, a competition where Ashley must be aware she probably won't be given special treatment this time if she's off the podium, since she failed to make the GPF two seasons in a row and was not the top American lady at Nationals + Worlds last season.

1. She used that line because it's the truth.
2. Ashely has NEVER said that this is her last Grand Prix of her career, she has never even implied that.
3. I don't think it matters much that she didn't t make Grand Prix final two years in a row when she has been the only us lady to make consistently make the final in years anyways. This isn't Russia.
4. We have absolutely no idea how the judging will go at Nationals. Before this event, everybody was saying how the judges will overlook Karen and Ashley's under rotations and give them homecooking, and yet it was Satoko who got zero jump reviews and Kaori who got a pcs boost.