2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

[labgoat]

No athlete likes to admit defeat...withdrawals are not easy, just look at my icon and think of how hard it was for Tai & Randy to withdraw without even trying.

 

[mrrice]

No athlete likes to admit defeat...withdrawals are not easy, just look at my icon and think of how hard it was for Tai & Randy to withdraw without even trying.

It was the same way with Michelle in 2006. She went all the way to Torino and was unable to skate after re-aggravating her injury during practice. When an athletes dreams are on the line, it must be incredibly difficult for a coach to tell them not risk going for it. I truly hope everything works out for all the athletes dealing with injuries. Ashley, Evgenia, Patrick, and any other skaters who are going through this.

 

[Manitou]

Ashley was already being strong trying to attempt to qualify for the final despite her injury and lack of training time. Who are you to judge her saying she is a weak character because she couldn't "will" herself through that performance? I think her body of work in the past 8 years is a testament that she is strong mentally. This has got to be one of the most ridiculous criticisms ever.

This is sport. When Yulia did the same at Rostelecom I was equally critical of her, despite the fact I am huge fan of her. Once you started you must finish. Imagine ballet or theatre - people come to watch and you just quit because you feel pain?
And you are saying it's too much for skaters to do five minutes every several weeks? How does it compare to tennis where you have to play many excruciating hours every other day, or football, soccer, skiing, tracks, all sports, every day, DESPITE THE PAIN? And you cannot perform five minutes once per a couple of weeks here? Just because it hurts?

 

[Seren]

This is sport. When Yulia did the same at Rostelecom I was equally critical of her, despite the fact I am huge fan of her. Once you started you must finish. Imagine ballet or theatre - people come to watch and you just quit because you feel pain?
And you are saying it's too much for skaters to do five minutes every several weeks? How does it compare to tennis where you have to play many excruciating hours every other day, or football, soccer, skiing, tracks, all sports, every day, DESPITE THE PAIN? And you cannot perform five minutes once per a couple of weeks here? Just because it hurts?

:hslap:

If an athlete risks further injury by competing they should stop. They don't owe the peanut gallery their health because they came to watch.

 

[Gullygirl84]

Karen's book promotion is starting-here is an article featuring an interview with Karen, where she talks about the book, and assesses her Skate America performances (looks like this was from her Today show appearance this morning).

http://www.nbcolympics.com/news/karen-chen-plans-polish-programs-nationals

Strangely, they make it sound like her next competition isn't until nationals. Isn't she signed up for Golden Spin?

 

[mrrice]

:hslap:

If an athlete risks further injury by competing they should stop. They don't owe the peanut gallery their health because they came to watch.

As a member of the "Peanut Gallery" I don't want to see an athlete compete in any sport when they're not healthy. I wouldn't have minded if they announced Ashley was withdrawing and she skated to center ice and waved. These skaters make so many sacrifices that I only want what's best for them.

 

[ribbit]

This is sport. When Yulia did the same at Rostelecom I was equally critical of her, despite the fact I am huge fan of her. Once you started you must finish. Imagine ballet or theatre - people come to watch and you just quit because you feel pain?
And you are saying it's too much for skaters to do five minutes every several weeks? How does it compare to tennis where you have to play many excruciating hours every other day, or football, soccer, skiing, tracks, all sports, every day, DESPITE THE PAIN? And you cannot perform five minutes once per a couple of weeks here? Just because it hurts?

Withdrawal through injury or illness is an unfortunate but unavoidable part, not only of sport, but of artistic performances of all kinds. I've attended many opera performances during which a singer has been forced to withdraw and an understudy has taken his or her place. I've attended theatrical and ballet performances at which last-minute casting changes have been announced and understudies taken the place of stars, disappointing the audience but also granting us the gift of extraordinary performances we would never have experienced otherwise. If a singer or dancer becomes ill or injured and can't continue adequately, the performance as a whole suffers. Moreover, the singer risks permanent injury, disappointing far more people than a single audience and potentially depriving the world of all the performances lost to a premature and avoidable end to a career. That's why understudies are present in the theatre. Similarly, I've watched many sporting events in which an athlete has had to withdraw and a substitute to take his or her place during the event, for the good of the team and the good of the individual athlete's career and ability to make future contributions to team or country. That's why substitutes are on the bench. It simply isn't true to say that finishing a performance or a competition is the only or the overriding imperative.

Despite what you seem to think, the human body is not always subject to the human will. Sometimes pain is manageable, sometimes it's not. Sometimes pain remains consistent, sometimes it diminishes, sometimes it intensifies beyond endurance. Sometimes even five minutes of pain cannot be tolerated. When pain shifts from manageable to unmanageable cannot be predicted and is not in the mind's control, no matter how strong that mind is. Reaching one's breaking point says absolutely nothing about the character or integrity of the athlete experiencing pain. It simply says that that athlete, like all of us, is human.

 

[artsciboy]

This is sport. When Yulia did the same at Rostelecom I was equally critical of her, despite the fact I am huge fan of her. Once you started you must finish. Imagine ballet or theatre - people come to watch and you just quit because you feel pain?
And you are saying it's too much for skaters to do five minutes every several weeks? How does it compare to tennis where you have to play many excruciating hours every other day, or football, soccer, skiing, tracks, all sports, every day, DESPITE THE PAIN? And you cannot perform five minutes once per a couple of weeks here? Just because it hurts?

Yah, and did Yulia ever step back in the competitive spotlight after that? No and that's not how any top tier athlete would like to end their career.

You probably don't like Ashley, but why would you want her to commit career suicide and risk worsening her injury just to "finish". For what?

 

[andromache]

Karen's book promotion is starting-here is an article featuring an interview with Karen, where she talks about the book, and assesses her Skate America performances (looks like this was from her Today show appearance this morning).

http://www.nbcolympics.com/news/karen-chen-plans-polish-programs-nationals

The interviews Karen gives all tend to sound like this - she's overall pretty pleased with how she skated at Skate America slink, she's working to "polish" her programs and maybe tweak some choreography (what about the URs??), and nothing about how her goal is to repeat as National Champion or make the Olympic team. I love Karen's skating, but she never seems too hungry for competitive results or to discuss the specifics of what she needs to improve. I know different skaters tend to publicly discuss their careers in different ways, but I would think, at bare minimum, Karen would talk about wanting to go to the Olympics. Have I just been spoiled by years of Gracie, Ashley, Mirai, and Polina, all of whom have always been very candid about their goals and what they need to focus on to achieve them?

 

[R.D.]

Ultimately the skating does the talking. We shall see how they all do at Nationals.

 

[lappo]

This is sport. When Yulia did the same at Rostelecom I was equally critical of her, despite the fact I am huge fan of her. Once you started you must finish. Imagine ballet or theatre - people come to watch and you just quit because you feel pain?
And you are saying it's too much for skaters to do five minutes every several weeks? How does it compare to tennis where you have to play many excruciating hours every other day, or football, soccer, skiing, tracks, all sports, every day, DESPITE THE PAIN? And you cannot perform five minutes once per a couple of weeks here? Just because it hurts?

Believe it or not, I went once to an Oasis concert, they came on stage, performed a song and then Liam G. said sth in the order of "I don't give a """" and went out! I was lucky because the concert was in my city and I was given the tickets for free but I was nonetheless in disbelief for such a rude behaviour (and many were very angry, even if they got a partial refund)! As you can see, withdrawals happen for the most incredible reasons but I find them more than justified in case of athletes that are putting themselves, their health and their future careers at risk.

 

[Manitou]

Withdrawal through injury or illness is an unfortunate but unavoidable part, not only of sport, but of artistic performances of all kinds.

Obviously. A theatre management knows in advance you are sick or injured, so the last minute adjustments are made. But you don't quit after you already enter the stage.

I wouldn't have minded if they announced Ashley was withdrawing and she skated to center ice and waved. These skaters make so many sacrifices that I only want what's best for them.

This is my entire point.

 

[Tavi...]

Wait for the "but she could have put a beige bandage over it" comment.

You guys are ridiculous. Wagner is one of the most accomplished US ladies of the past decade. The amount of hate and hypocrisy displayed towards her is stunning.

I agree. Questioning the color of her athletic tape is a little ridiculous. I mean c’mon people - has it even occurred to you that it was applied by her trainer or doctor?

By the way, athletic tape comes in a lot of different, highly visible colors:

https://www.google.com/search?q=athletic tape&tbm=isch

 

[badknees]

The whole boot withdrawal thing reminded me of Tonya Harding at the Olympics. I thought for a moment Ashley was going to put her skate-clad foot on the judges' table. The bling-y stuff was so Tonya Harding, too.

What boot thing? It was her ankle. There is absolutely no comparison to Harding here. The costumes these days have a huge amount of bling on them.

There is no comparison to Harding. What an uneducated and uninformed thing to say.

 

[badknees]

Being an older skater is a challenge. Kostner has beautiful skating skills--that means less having to muscle through things, less having to work on elements over and over and, overall, being less prone to injury. Wagner's never been a great technical skater--and now she's hit that point where she doesn't recover as quickly and has to train that much harder to keep up her stamina. I honestly think she's doing her best, but her deficiencies as a skater are catching up with her and it's getting harder to compensate.

I see no reason to beat up on her about it. In some sense, I think harshing on Ashley is more about the overall issues among U.S. Ladies--a lot is being demanded of 26-year-old skater who was never in the Michelle Kwan category.

At this point, I hope Bradie stays solid and adds some finesse. I hope Karen Chen gets her focus back and her jumps in order. I hope Mariah figures out how to skate her programs. I hope Mirai holds on to her triple axel, but starts to connect the rest of her program to her music. I hope Polina gets back her other jumps.

If those things happen, I won't worry about Ashley's ups and downs. She's had a good run--if she has a couple of more peaks, all the more power to her, but U.S. Ladies shouldn't depend on it.

Excellent and very positive post. I wish they were all like this. Way, way too much arm chair judging and negativity going on in this thread. I love ashley. Always have. Been routing and cheering for her for 10 years. I admire her longevity and hope for the absolute best for her in nationals and hope she gets to the olympics.

 

[ribbit]

Obviously. A theatre management knows in advance you are sick or injured, so the last minute adjustments are made. But you don't quit after you already enter the stage.

Yes, you do. If you can't continue, if you can't hit the notes or dance the steps, you stop and an understudy takes your place. I've seen it happen, most recently at the Metropolitan Opera. And I've sat through performances at which a performer should have withdrawn and didn't. Watching a performer visibly in pain, and making his or her pain worse by continuing to perform, may cause one to admire the determination but detracts enormously from the experience of the art or sport. Performance is not, and should not be, torture.

 

[mrrice]

Yes, you do. If you can't continue, if you can't hit the notes or dance the steps, you stop and an understudy takes your place. I've seen it happen, most recently at the Metropolitan Opera. And I've sat through performances at which a performer should have withdrawn and didn't. Watching a performer visibly in pain, and making his or her pain worse by continuing to perform, may cause one to admire the determination but detracts enormously from the experience of the art or sport. Performance is not, and should not be, torture.

Correct, and that's the difference between a show and a competition. There are understudies for every lead role in a play. However, if you enter a solo singing contest and you can't sing.....You lose. It's a completely different scenario. These skaters have no backup and who knows if they have some sort of contractual pressure from a sponsor. I wonder if she could lose money by withdrawing before the event begins. I think she fulfills her obligation by taking the ice during the SP but, you never know.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

May be a bit off topic, but I'm not sure what kind of infection one would get on their ankle. Is it the result of a blister that got infected?

 

[andromache]

May be a bit off topic, but I'm not sure what kind of infection one would get on their ankle. Is it the result of a blister that got infected?

Per a TSL guest (Michael Solonoski, was his name, I think), yes. Some sort of open wound, like an open blister, gets infected from the icky bacteria in your skate.

 

[lyndichee]

Obviously. A theatre management knows in advance you are sick or injured, so the last minute adjustments are made. But you don't quit after you already enter the stage.



This is my entire point.

You're way too focused on them being quitters to realize that they are also fighters. Whether it is Ashley, Yulia, Gracie, Evgenia, Yuzuru, Patrick, Javi etc. An athletes journey goes beyond the 7 minute stage they get at each competition.

There's a saying in Chinese that follows the line of "On stage for 10 mins, off stage 10 years of work." I would never use such judgment against skaters to dismiss their pain. Think of how devastated these athletes would feel knowing that their withdrawal and losses are used to stain their achievements and characters. Instead of criticizing and insisting they must finish, maybe flip it; they were in so much pain that they felt there was no way they could finish the performance.