2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

[chuckm]

Golden Spin is the final Challenge event of the year. Points awarded are higher than for a B event.

 

[eaglehelang]

I agree with you that elite athletes are extremely tough and frequently compete with injuries and through pain that most of us would not be able to endure. And I agree that many cultures (not only Asian cultures) would criticize a decision like Ashley's--witness the complaints in this thread, some of which are coming from her fellow Americans. Your mention of Chinese athletes reminds me of Liu Xiang, the great Chinese Olympic and World champion hurdler who had to withdraw from the 110-meter hurdles during the running of the first heat at the Beijing Olympics in 2008, and who was intensely criticized for doing so. (Another athlete false-started, he aggravated an Achilles tendon injury in his start, and he had to walk off the track rather than returning to the starting line. He returned to competition but was injured again in the heats at the 2012 Olympics, hopping down the track to the finish line before being taken away in a wheelchair. This injury ended his career.) No matter how great the cultural expectations--and an athlete's own expectations--may be, sometimes pain is truly intolerable.

I can't tell from your comment whether or not you think that such criticism of athletes who withdraw during competition is valid, or whether or not you think that athletes should attempt to complete a competition no matter what, even at the risk of further injury--or of passing out or vomiting from pain, something I don't think any of us want to see. The comment you quote was a response to a poster who appeared to express the beliefs that surrender to pain was always a sign of mental weakness, that human beings were capable of tolerating any level of pain if they just set their minds to it, and that therefore it was unacceptable, weak, and shameful for an athlete to withdraw from a competition due to injury or pain. My point was simply that these beliefs were unreasonable. (If they were true, torture would be completely useless and would have been abandoned long ago. Sadly, history shows that that is not the case...and equally sadly, history also shows that people subjected to torture for long enough periods of time will eventually say anything, true or not, to make the pain stop.)

We cannot know what level of pain Ashley was experiencing, or how her experience of pain changed over the competition. Therefore, we cannot objectively judge her decision. It's easy for us to sit back and say we would have done things differently, or she should have done things differently. We can't actually know that, or know what we would have done under those conditions. We have to rely on her report of her subjective experience. I would say that her record--as she pointed out, she has never withdrawn during a competition in an unusually long career--and her description of the pain she felt during her program as "nauseating", provide supporting evidence that her decision to stop was made because the pain was unendurable. But ultimately, external corroborating evidence shouldn't matter. To return to your original point, these athletes are extremely tough. If an athlete comes to the conclusion that she can't tough it out any longer, or that she will do herself great harm by toughing it out, we should respect her decision and call it wise, not weak.

My point is similar with the forumers who said Ashley should have withdrawn before the long program. That would have been normal.
Skating halfway then suddenly stopping , without any obvious falls or glaring mistakes is fishy. Its already half way, just skate round and finish the last 2 min or so, without aggravating the injury.

Overdoing on the athlete's part would be Yuzuru skating after the crash with han yan in 2014. Or another japanese female athlete in 2012 Olympics :
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...fMAA&usg=AOvVaw3omahusnMZM7My0UgAZbEO&ampcf=1
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...sQwqsBCCcwAQ&usg=AOvVaw0VTJzWxrN8ZFOD4xbU2nov
Sayaka sato insisted on countinuing against medical advise. No way she could have won the match but she could not accept it was the end of her Olympic journey. Her coach had to step in and stop her.
It was painful to watch live, her trying to play while crying . Everyone was waiting for her to concede the match. Even her opponent was worried for her.

 

[RobinA]

Just because an athlete from another country would have made a different decision, doesn't make that decision right. Or wrong. This is someone's life and career and they should call it like they see it. They pay the astronomical amount of money skating costs, they put their lives on hold to be at the top of the sport, they grow old with bodies that will suffer the consequences of the amount of time they have spent doing things that their bodies were not built to do. They get good things out of it too, and the good things flow from how they handle themselves out there. Any one decision they make could have a huge impact on their careers after that decision. So they have to decide what works and they have to live with what flows from that. They do have some responsibility to represent their country reasonably and to not squander opportunities they gained over other skaters. I have watched skaters over the years handle their careers in various ways and sometimes I have silently screamed, "What are you DOING" cough coachlessMichelle cough cough, and lord knows one of my other faves Angela Nikodinov. But really, they own their careers. We can speculate on whether a decision is a good career move, but I don't think a skater should face slurs and personal attacks because of a decision they made that, frankly, we know nothing about. And don't even get me started on the Who Is Tougher sweepstakes.

 

[RobinA]

Also, I would like to say one thing about Bradie. I think it IS premature to call her “the most consistent US lady in years” or things like that but what I will say is she has excellent transitions. I haven’t seen any of the American ladies have any transitions like that. Almost every jump has some kind of difficult entry in and some kind of quality extension of something similar out. That really helps the judges go up on the GOE. No other senior US lady uses those intricate transitions.

Agree on the "premature" and agree in the very cautious optimism. Parts of the skating world, particularly in this country but also in Russia, just never seem to get the message as to the hazards of anointing some (usually a lady) not fully grown skater the "Next" mantle. The skating world gets a big disappointment when the lady, completely normally, grows three inches, gains weight and can no longer rotate triples one inch off the ice, and the effects on the lady her considerable and not positive.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Agree on the "premature" and agree in the very cautious optimism. Parts of the skating world, particularly in this country but also in Russia, just never seem to get the message as to the hazards of anointing some (usually a lady) not fully grown skater the "Next" mantle. The skating world gets a big disappointment when the lady, completely normally, grows three inches, gains weight and can no longer rotate triples one inch off the ice, and the effects on the lady her considerable and not positive.

I never really bought into this line of thinking. I know lots of girls who skate and quit/slow down around 16 yrs old. It’s not an unnatural thing to see happen at both elite and competitive levels. Why not capitalize on early success while you peak and then go to college at 19? Isn’t Bradie 19 anyway? I surely don’t think it’s detrimental and to anyone doing anointing and putting their own expectations on others...well...that says more about them than any athlete. Maybe it’s best just to encourage talent and respect it whether it lasts ten years or one. I don’t for instance value one more than the other and I think that is a very healthy message that skaters should hear.

 

[LiamForeman]

I agree with Sam-S. You should strike while the iron is hot. And Bradie isn't even 'young' for a skater. I was really impressed with her clean and rotated jumps. I haven't seen an American skater offhand in ages who doesn't have some jumping issue (UR, edges). So, Bradie stands out to me. But after a great season so far this year, she might not be the future of US skating in the long haul, but she could be an Olympian in a few months. And who knows what she would do after that? Maybe Olympics is her goal and she might retire after this season to go to college. I'm happy for her either way.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

It might serve Bradie well to get a new look for nationals, maybe a more mature dress and lose the hair jewels? Just a thought. And it would very much serve Karen well to go to a jump coach!! Please, Karen! You’re so good!
Maybe her team figures that the tech panel will ignore URs at nationals?

 

[chuckm]

I never really bought into this line of thinking. I know lots of girls who skate and quit/slow down around 16 yrs old. It’s not an unnatural thing to see happen at both elite and competitive levels. Why not capitalize on early success while you peak and then go to college at 19? Isn’t Bradie 19 anyway? I surely don’t think it’s detrimental and to anyone doing anointing and putting their own expectations on others...well...that says more about them than any athlete. Maybe it’s best just to encourage talent and respect it whether it lasts ten years or one. I don’t for instance value one more than the other and I think that is a very healthy message that skaters should hear.

Let me just say that I can remember Bradie in her Novice and early Junior years when she was this tiny tow-headed girl with braces on her teeth who always seemed to finish on the podium with her competitors towering over her. Now she has grown into this lovely tall woman with gorgeous long legs and she is skating better than ever. Sometimes puberty IS kind.

 

[pearly]

I listened to parts of the TSL This and That (I suppose to reinforce my opinion these two guys are mean and snarky and have nothing to contribute to skating). The male guest they had defended Ashley so I guess that means this was the last time he gets invited.

They did say one thing I agree with - whenever a US lady does well in one competition, people go "yes, she's the one, send her to the Olympics". Mirai had a good skate at 4CC last year and there were all these "she should go to Worlds" comments. Mariah won a single medal last GP season and all of a sudden she is "the next big thing". Courtney gets the highest SP score of US ladies at an event and people already have her on the Olympic team. Bradie is the new hope after one event.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

They did say one thing I agree with - whenever a US lady does well in one competition, people go "yes, she's the one, send her to the Olympics". Mirai had a good skate at 4CC last year and there were all these "she should go to Worlds" comments. Mariah won a single medal last GP season and all of a sudden she is "the next big thing". Courtney gets the highest SP score of US ladies at an event and people already have her on the Olympic team. Bradie is the new hope after one event.

The big difference is that Bradie is a standout because everyone else has been so bad this season. She's had 3 good international events this season; everyone else has had 0 or 1 good event. We all noticed Bradie now because Skate America was widely televised, but she's been skating well since the summer (which is when she earned the spot in the first place). I don't think she's "the next big thing" but I do think she is the best American woman right now. Our national champion is having fits selecting programs and doing clean jumps, our WSM is able to do precisely one type of triple successfully, and our comeback kid has a 3A but also the same problems with all the other jumps as before. I'll back an average artist who can rotate 10 triples (without edge calls) over the other women in a heartbeat.

 

[pearly]

The big difference is that Bradie is a standout because everyone else has been so bad this season. She's had 3 good international events this season; everyone else has had 0 or 1 good event. We all noticed Bradie now because Skate America was widely televised, but she's been skating well since the summer (which is when she earned the spot in the first place). I don't think she's "the next big thing" but I do think she is the best American woman right now. Our national champion is having fits selecting programs and doing clean jumps, our WSM is able to do precisely one type of triple successfully, and our comeback kid has a 3A but also the same problems with all the other jumps as before. I'll back an average artist who can rotate 10 triples (without edge calls) over the other women in a heartbeat.

I hope Bradie goes to Golden Spin despite the spotlight she is now in. Your analysis is very on point.

 

[andromache]

I hope Bradie goes to Golden Spin despite the spotlight she is now in. Your analysis is very on point.

I kind of hope so too. Putting together another 2 clean programs there would make a pretty powerful statement.

 

[Mrs. P]

The big difference is that Bradie is a standout because everyone else has been so bad this season. She's had 3 good international events this season; everyone else has had 0 or 1 good event. We all noticed Bradie now because Skate America was widely televised, but she's been skating well since the summer (which is when she earned the spot in the first place). I don't think she's "the next big thing" but I do think she is the best American woman right now. Our national champion is having fits selecting programs and doing clean jumps, our WSM is able to do precisely one type of triple successfully, and our comeback kid has a 3A but also the same problems with all the other jumps as before. I'll back an average artist who can rotate 10 triples (without edge calls) over the other women in a heartbeat.

There's quite a few of us who had a good feeling about Bradie this summer. I still think she needs to earn the Olympic spot at Nationals and I'm still waiting to see if she can continue her streak of clean performances.

She's also been doing 3-3s for a while. She did a 3T-3T for a while before she mastered the 3Z-3T. And she's done the 2A-3T for some time too.

 

[desertskates]

It might serve Bradie well to get a new look for nationals, maybe a more mature dress and lose the hair jewels? Just a thought. And it would very much serve Karen well to go to a jump coach!! Please, Karen! You’re so good!
Maybe her team figures that the tech panel will ignore URs at nationals?

I'll agree with the new, more mature look, but leave the hair jewels I have the same coloring, and it's so tough to break up the samey-samey coloring with hair and face

 

[TontoK]

I kind of hope so too. Putting together another 2 clean programs there would make a pretty powerful statement.

Why she should do Golden Spin:

Several of her prime US competitors seem to be pretty emotionally fragile at the moment. Backing up her excellent SA performances with another great outing could drive a stake through their hearts. It would be a competitor's move.

"I can skate like this time after time after time. Come at me."

 

[R.D.]

It’s a whole different ballgame when the pressure is on and the spotlight is on you.

Looks like Tennell will find out in short order what that feels like......can’t say I envy that. But I guess it is what it is, with no clear “lady leader”.

I just hope the Hype Machine(TM) doesn’t spin out of control here should she continue on her current trajectory (just see what’s happening over in men with Nathan Chen!!!), but you know it will.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I just hope the Hype Machine(TM) doesn’t spin out of control here should she continue on her current trajectory (just see what’s happening over in men with Nathan Chen!!!), but you know it will.

Like everyone else, Bradie will have a drop in form at some point. Hopefully she can continue skating well for the next few months and some of the more well known skaters will deflect some of the pressure and attention away from her.

 

[mrrice]

Like everyone else, Bradie will have a drop in form at some point. Hopefully she can continue skating well for the next few months and some of the more well known skaters will deflect some of the pressure and attention away from her.

If Golden Spin has been on her schedule from the beginning, I think she should go. If not, I don't think the extra travel and expense at this late point in the season will benefit her. She now knows that her programs are working for her, and as others have said, I would love to see a slight re-packaging of her FP Costume. She's a tall and lovely young lady and she's still looks 14 in her current costume.

 

[LiamForeman]

Why she should do Golden Spin:

Several of her prime US competitors seem to be pretty emotionally fragile at the moment. Backing up her excellent SA performances with another great outing could drive a stake through their hearts. It would be a competitor's move.

"I can skate like this time after time after time. Come at me."

Exactly. I was very impressed with her post-SkAm interview where she basically said that yes, Olympics is a goal, but I can only control how I skate and that's what matters. Which I think is a smart outlook. Ice is slippery, she could go to Golden Spin and bomb her short and oh well, better luck at Nationals. It's really a healthy way to look at competition, any kind of competition. It's a terrible feeling to panic/get nervous and do poorly when you know that if you just look at yourself as your competition and try to do better than yourself you'd have done better. She seems really nice and grounded. I'm a fan.

 

[andromache]

I just hope the Hype Machine(TM) doesn’t spin out of control here should she continue on her current trajectory (just see what’s happening over in men with Nathan Chen!!!), but you know it will.

I don't think the hype machine can go too crazy for someone who has really zero chance at an Olympic medal. Jason Brown went viral in 2014 but I don't recall the hype machine going whack for him. Gracie was hyped in 2014 before she really deserved it (like, I basically think a trip to GPF = Olympic hype and anything less is not worth it), but c'mon, her name is Gracie Gold. Journalists couldn't help themselves .

Comparatively, Nathan's hype is well-earned and kind of a long time coming. USFS has their eye on him since he was a kid. If he was a lady, he'd be getting ten times the hype.