2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

[Amei]

Ashley is a fierce competitor who tends to bring it in the moment when the pressure is on. She's motivated by proving people wrong when they say she's not good enough. Over an astounding number of years, she's been extremely consistent, so I don't think it can be correct to say she doesn't have a competitive mind-set. She's learned to deal with competition nerves, but it's still a fight.

Ashley has said repeatedly that she's a performer at heart: she likes being center ice, center of attention, and she passionately desires to give the audience a performance that will make them feel something, give them their money's worth, have them be glad they came (or watched).

Seriously?? :scratch3: Then someone really needs to point out to her that she needs to stop reusing programs and give fans something new to see and that means something other than a pretty new dress... I don't want to see her go to worlds/Olympics because I'm tired of her programs

 

[mrrice]

I just can't imagine sending Angela Wang (as much as I love her skating) or Courtney Hicks to the Olympics if they end up on the podium.

That's the thing about this year.....When was the last time that none of the ladies senior or junior made the GPF? I'm just saying that holding up a skater under the current circumstance is something I would not do.

 

[draqq]

Two things on Ashley Wagner:

1) I hope that her La La Land free program gives her a renewed sense of energy and that she has the time to really work on getting height on her jumps so that she doesn't under-rotate.

2) I know she says she feels more comfortable being the underdog, but I don't want that to be code for "it's okay if I don't nail the short program." Please, Ashley, put yourself in the mindset of a frontrunner and come out with a stunning short program. You can't leave any point behind.

 

[draqq]

I just can't imagine sending Angela Wang (as much as I love her skating) or Courtney Hicks to the Olympics if they end up on the podium.

If they get a bronze, then yes, I can see them not making the Olympic team in favor of other skaters just on reputation and politics. But if either of them get a silver somehow, then the selection committee would be hard-pressed not to give that skater an Olympic berth.

 

[klutzy]

If you're suggesting that it should be considered a retroactive justification for the 2014 decision, then that's another meaningless "point," IMO.

Mirai scored 186.65 at 2016 Worlds, and placed tenth.

Polina scored 183.25 in Sochi, and placed ninth.

Big deal :sarcasm:.

---

Indeed. In other words, nothing appears to have been lost by giving Polina the spot she earned at the Olympics by beating both Ashley and Mirai. I've seen a couple of posters say sending Polina in lieu of Mirai was a big mistake. It wasn't.

 

[ice coverage]

Indeed. In other words, nothing appears to have been lost by giving Polina the spot she earned at the Olympics by beating both Ashley and Mirai. I've seen a couple of posters say sending Polina in lieu of Mirai was a big mistake. It wasn't.

I don't know why you attempted to quote me, b/c what you said is a complete non-response to what I said in reply to your previous nonsense.

You're the one pretending that Polina's placement at the Olympics should be compared to Mirai's placement at Worlds. I think such a comparison is irrelevant to the Sochi decision.

 

[klutzy]

I think Ashley peaked at 2016 Worlds and it was a great time to peak, but I see no signs of her being a Kostner/Slutskaya late-bloomer who just keeps better and better. Just about every skater other than Bradie Tennell needs to show a quality/consistency that she hasn't yet shown this season.

The good thing is that several of them have shown glimmers (including Ashley with her bronze) of doing what it takes. I look forward to watching a real competition.

 

[brightphoton]

Am I misremembering or was Lipinski a mentor for Wagner early on in her career as well?

Anyway, Lipinski is simply doing her job as a commentator - I think it's a perfectly fair (and accurate) comment that I also happen to agree with. But yes, I'm sure from Wagner's point of view it must sting a bit to hear sharp criticism coming from TL. That said, it is ultimately up to Wagner to prove her naysayers wrong by going out there and skating like we all know she can.

I don't think Ashley ever got a mentor from USFSA. I remember at the time, officially, Mirai was mentored by Kristi, and Rachael Flatt by Debie Thomas.

Maybe they got Dorothy Hamill and Peggy Fleming to help out too, but I may be misremembering on that part.

 

[klutzy]

I don't know why you attempted to quote me, b/c what you said is a complete non-response to what I said in reply to your previous nonsense.

You're the one pretending that Polina's placement at the Olympics should be compared to Mirai's placement at Worlds. I think such a comparison is irrelevant to the Sochi decision.

You chose to respond to my initial comment on this subject and have indulged in ad hominem insults while doing so ("nonsense", "double standard"). I did not attack you personally, but you have reacted as if I did.

Polina placing ninth at the Olympics and Mirai tenth at Worlds do, indeed, seem like comparable placements. You may not see them as relevant to the Sochi decision--I do when it comes to considering whether the Sochi decision was a "mistake." I think if Mirai had, say, medalled at Worlds the following year OR Polina had fallen apart at the Olympics, then there would be evidence that sending Polina to Sochi was a mistake--i.e. the American team would haver performed better if Mirai had gone instead of Polina.

I'm not sure, by the way that "pretending" has anything to do with this. You either compare or you don't.

 

[ice coverage]

You chose to respond to my initial comment on this subject and have indulged in ad hominem insults while doing so ("nonsense", "double standard"). I did not attack you personally, but you have reacted as if I did.

Polina placing ninth at the Olympics and Mirai tenth at Worlds do, indeed, seem like comparable placements. You may not see them as relevant to the Sochi decision--I do when it comes to considering whether the Sochi decision was a "mistake." I think if Mirai had, say, medalled at Worlds the following year OR Polina had fallen apart at the Olympics, then there would be evidence that sending Polina to Sochi was a mistake--i.e. the American team would haver performed better if Mirai had gone instead of Polina.

I'm not sure, by the way that "pretending" has anything to do with this. You either compare or you don't.

If a ninth place versus tenth place at two different comps should be relevant ... then Polina's lower score for ninth place versus Mirai's higher score for tenth place also should be relevant.

You're picking and choosing what you want to pick and choose -- so yes, for me, your picking and choosing are nonsense.

None of it is relevant to the Sochi decision, IMO.

(And I must have missed the memo that "double standard" is an ad hominem insult. )

 

[Bluediamonds09]

On a different topic, has anyone heard anything from the Team contenders lately? Like, and practice videos or updates or major changes?

 

[college pat]

yes mentoring,

does it help? look at the U.S. ladies results of all that mentoring by Kristi, Tara, etc.

not as well as what they did is it.

 

[brightphoton]

yes mentoring,

does it help? look at the U.S. ladies results of all that mentoring by Kristi, Tara, etc.

not as well as what they did is it.

For the USFSA, mentoring is more of a one-off cherry picking kind of thing. Kristi helped Mirai and Karen, but it might be due to Asian solidarity. Debi tried to help Rachel Flatt, before she developed issues of her own. It's shameful to see radio silence from USFSA when their former Olympic bronze medalist was in such a mess.

God knows Gracie could have used some mentoring for her "off-ice issues" as the our fed calls it, but no official help there.

I honestly don't know if Tara has mentored anyone. She and Johnny Weir appear to care more about their bedazzled Ascot hats and fierce outfits than the skaters they constantly criticize.

 

[sinnerspinner]

Guys, the fed was never going to bump its silver medalist at Nationals so the fourth-place finisher could go. If Mirai was so much worthier of the Olympics slot than Polina Edmunds well, she should have shown it by beating her at Nationals. Honestly, I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand--figure skating is a competitive sport. You show what your worth by how you do at competitions.

You don't pass by the third-place finisher and send the silver medalist home--figure skating already has a huge issue with perceived favoritism. Sending Mirai and Ashley over Polina would have rendered Nationals essentially meaningless as a competition.

It was touchy that Ashley replaced Mirai, but bumping the silver medalist? That would have been extremely unpopular with the people who tune into skating every four years. You know, the people the fed wishes would show more interest in figure skating during non-Olympic years?

Mirai Nagasu can earn her Olympic spot the way Polina did--by skating well at Nationals. I honestly don't get the sense of entitlement some Mirai fans seem to have about this. She didn't earn the spot. If you're her fan, hope for her to skate in a way that she earns her spot instead grousing how she should have taken someone else's spot.

Im personally delighted Polina went. She earned her silver spot. I was just making an analogy.

 

[just wondering]

Am I misremembering or was Lipinski a mentor for Wagner early on in her career as well?

Anyway, Lipinski is simply doing her job as a commentator - I think it's a perfectly fair (and accurate) comment that I also happen to agree with. But yes, I'm sure from Wagner's point of view it must sting a bit to hear sharp criticism coming from TL. That said, it is ultimately up to Wagner to prove her naysayers wrong by going out there and skating like we all know she can.

Good memory. She was!

 

[R.D.]

Good memory. She was!

Ah, I thought so. Thanks for digging that up and confirming.

 

[chuckm]

If you're suggesting that it should be considered a retroactive justification for the 2014 decision, then that's another meaningless "point," IMO.

Mirai scored 186.65 at 2016 Worlds and placed tenth.

Polina scored 183.25 in Sochi, and placed ninth.

Big deal :sarcasm:.

The difference is the suggestion that Mirai should have been sent [to Olympics and/or Worlds] because she was the more experienced skater and would have placed better over a newbie at the Senior level.

The reality is that the newbie at the Senior level in actuality placed better than the more experienced skater. Also, at Worlds 2014, after the Olympics, Edmunds was 8th, and she was 8th at 2015 Worlds as well.

As far as the scores go, here is how that breaks down:

Edmunds: 61.04 + 122.21 = 183.25
Nagasu: 65.74 + 120.91 = 186.65

In the SP, both skaters got their 3/3 UR

Edmunds: 3z+3t<, 3f, 2a Edmunds was 7th with a TES of 32.98 and a PCS of 28.06
Nagasu: 3z+3t<, 3lo, 2a Nagasu was 10th with a TES of 34.73 and a PCS of 31.01

Note that the value of the 3lo was upgraded after the 2014 Olympics.
Note also that Edmunds took a "newbie hit" in her PCS score

Here are the FS stats:

9 EDMUNDS 122.21 (63.02+60.19) 7.54 7.29 7.57 7.61 7.61 1.00 3z+3t, 3f+lo+3s, 2a, 3f<↓, 3z, 3lo+2t, 2a

11 NAGASU 120.91 (60.97+59.94) 7.57 7.21 7.50 7.50 7.68 0.00 3f!+3t+2t, 3z<, 3s, 2a+3t, 3lo+2t, 3lo<, 2a

Even with a fall, Polina got higher TES and PCS than Mirai because of Mirai's URs. Polina's PCS may have been held down because she was a newbie, but Mirai's were also held down because she executes her freeskate rather than performing it, despite her extensive experience.

 

[ice coverage]

The difference is the suggestion that Mirai should have been sent [to Olympics and/or Worlds] because she was the more experienced skater and would have placed better over a newbie at the Senior level.

The reality is that the newbie at the Senior level in actuality placed better than the more experienced skater. ...

If one accepts klutzy's ersatz (IMO) extrapolation, Mirai would have placed above Polina at the 2014 Olympics.

(Obviously am not disputing that at 2014 Nats, newbie senior Polina placed better than the more experienced Ashley and the more experienced Mirai.)

 

[mrrice]

Back then, Polina's biggest problem was her programs and packaging. She did have some rotation problems but, so did Mirai. I'm sure I missed part of this conversation but, Ashley's the one who was held up that year not Polina.

 

[kalee]

She doesn't have a 3-3, mainly because she has yet to get her triple toe.
I think she'll be on the team to junior worlds, but that means that one of Hanna or Ting doesn't go. So maybe the latter two will go since they're younger and show more promise?

What about Kaitlyn Nguyen or Ashley Lin? After Emmy, Kaitlyn has the next best international SB currently amongst the ladies who competed at JGP, so it seems unlikely that Hanna or Ting would displace her (Kaitlyn) as a JW contender when their JGP scores have been ~10 points lower. But without a 3-3, I don't see Emmy breaking the 180 point mark, so if she were to get a senior Nats podium, it would require a real meltdown from all of the Mirai / Karen / Mariah trifecta