2018 US Men's Oly/World/4CC team announced

[Blades of Passion]

I also feel sorry for Ross.

But to say that USFS over-scored Vincent (for the sake of future) is nonsense. If any thing, they are pushing down Vincent very hard. Extremely strict tech calls only applied to Vincent.

His calls were not strict at all. Vincent's quads are cheated. He's able to do a 1/4 turn short Quad Lutz at the top of this program but then after that he isn't able to back it up, every other quad ends up being more than 1/4 short or even a full 1/2 short. His 3Axel is low quality and not consistent either.

Ross was screwed over and this is not the first time. USFSA is basically just hoping Vincent can deliver better than he ever has before. Yeah, in theory Vincent can score higher than Ross if he hits more of the content, but there's no sign yet that Vincent is actually able to do it. Ross also has a higher scoring potential than what he showed at Nationals, he's capable of putting the Quad in the SP.

Even more than Vincent being named to BOTH teams over Ross though, Jason Brown's showing does not merit him being 1st alternate to the Olympics or Worlds. He failed every 3Axel attempt and of course the Quad is just not there. I'm a big supporter of Jason, but the technical merit is lacking this season. Something is going wrong with him at the moment and his season should absolutely end at 4CC.

Ross Miner is probably the most likely American guy at this point to do a clean SP + LP at the Olympics. It wouldn't be the first time he's done it either. His showing at Nationals being completely overlooked is disgusting. Skaters plan to peak at Nationals and Worlds/Olympics. Ross is peaking and being disregarded.

Also, Max Aaron being given assignments over Grant Hochstein is wrong. Max has bombed at Nationals 2 years in a row and he hasn't done great on the international scene either for 2 years in a row.

 

[Exposed]

Was expected. unlike Adam, Ross has rarely been consistent at international comps which USFS counts when it comes to deciding the spots. 2nd alternate tho? now that's unfair.

 

[mrrice]

Can someone explain why Grant wasn't given an alternate spot? He beat Jason and Max and was completely passed over.

 

[rlopen]

While the US generally has always stuck with the medalists to be the people to go to the Olympics/Worlds the actual guidelines for the selection process allows for the selection committee to look at the body of work and pick someone like Rippon this year or Wagner in 2014 who crumbled under pressure at Nationals but had a better overall season than someone who rose to the moment of Nationals. The problem is that this isn't historically what's been done in the US so now that they are going with this 'body of work' guideline they are getting a lot of negative attention for it. With the alternate and 4CCs selection that the committee chose, honestly I don't see any point behind it except to reinforce the 'Nationals aren't everything' point for the team selection.

In my opinion as far as the team selection I'm someone who likes the old way the US did things in doing it playoff style where Nationals decides who goes if you don't perform well here you've not earned a spot on an Olympics/Worlds team. In regards to this current situation my big issue is that regardless of whether Miner or Rippon went to the Olympics with a lights-out performance from either 1, neither would podium (unless a lot of craziness goes down), the only difference between the 2 is that Rippon is likely to put out a more consistent 5th-10th place finish. The Olympics doesn't affect how many spots the US gets at Worlds next year so Miner should have gone to the Olympics and then Rippon goes to World - very little drama.

This whole situation reminds me of the movie Stick it, which is about gymnastics, but at a competition a girl does a phenomenal vault and then gets a deduction for an obscure rule and the commentator says - this is why the sport loses fans, fans just saw an amazing performance and don't understand why a gymnast was not rewarded.

But it never even SHOULD have affected Ross...he was the silver medalist. My objection is the fact that Ross, the 2nd place finisher was affected but not the bronze medalist who was Vincent. I wouldn't have as much of a problem if it was Ross getting one event and Vincent getting one and Adam getting two, but Ross got screwed over to benefit Adam AND Vincent AND Jason!!! It never should have been like that! There should be a mix of body of work and nationals but if you are a top 3 finisher in an Olympic season where there are two big events you deserve at least one! There really isn't any excuse! Adam should have had both Olympics and Worlds since he has been clearly better this quad but Ross and Vincent should have split one each...and honestly then I wouldn't have a problem if Jason was 1st alternate for both Worlds and Olympics ahead of Ross/Vincent based on which assignment they got. Honestly that would have been the best choice that would still motivate people to actually show up at nationals (even though USFSA says Nationals isn't the defining factor...they still promote it like one and act like it's important so it's kinda hypocritical) and be consistent and strong throughout the season. Otherwise what's the point of nationals? Nothing. (Oh and don't even get me started on Grant being treated like dirt as well...)

 

[NAOTMAA]

Can someone explain why Grant wasn't given an alternate spot? He beat Jason and Max and was completely passed over.

and placed top 5 at nationals three years in a row!

but I guess his international record ain't so hot and apparently that was the #1 defacto consideration here

 

[ivy]

While the US generally has always stuck with the medalists to be the people to go to the Olympics/Worlds the actual guidelines for the selection process allows for the selection committee to look at the body of work and pick someone like Rippon this year or Wagner in 2014 who crumbled under pressure at Nationals but had a better overall season than someone who rose to the moment of Nationals. The problem is that this isn't historically what's been done in the US so now that they are going with this 'body of work' guideline they are getting a lot of negative attention for it. With the alternate and 4CCs selection that the committee chose, honestly I don't see any point behind it except to reinforce the 'Nationals aren't everything' point for the team selection.

In my opinion as far as the team selection I'm someone who likes the old way the US did things in doing it playoff style where Nationals decides who goes if you don't perform well here you've not earned a spot on an Olympics/Worlds team. In regards to this current situation my big issue is that regardless of whether Miner or Rippon went to the Olympics with a lights-out performance from either 1, neither would podium (unless a lot of craziness goes down), the only difference between the 2 is that Rippon is likely to put out a more consistent 5th-10th place finish. The Olympics doesn't affect how many spots the US gets at Worlds next year so Miner should have gone to the Olympics and then Rippon goes to World - very little drama.

This whole situation reminds me of the movie Stick it, which is about gymnastics, but at a competition a girl does a phenomenal vault and then gets a deduction for an obscure rule and the commentator says - this is why the sport loses fans, fans just saw an amazing performance and don't understand why a gymnast was not rewarded.

Yes, I love Adam, but he has no WC medal, no GPF medal, no 4CCs medal and he's been doing this a long time. He had a good '17 GP season but only managed 5th at the GPF. He doesn't have the results that justify this deference.

 

[princessalica]

You seriously can't see the difference between "I'll skate for as long as I can.." and "Im gonna skate forever...."? One spoken by a World Champion and one by a National pewter medalist?

I'm gutted for Ross, but is it too much for someone to ask Adam to just not rub salt into Ross and his coaches' wounds for now?

I heard Mitchell is quitting figure skating. :sarcasm:

Just watched the conference. He didn’t say he’d skate forever. He he said that he had skated forever. Small difference, but it was only a nod again at how much older he is than Nathan and Vincent.

 

[Tavi...]

The whole thing I think proves more then anything that Max Aaron NEVER stood a chance

he could have artistically become Nureyev and Nijinsky reincarnated and land his jumps but it would never have made them stray from the Chen-Rippon-Brown team

If Nationals results meant nothing, Jason would be on the team right now based in the criteria. Vincent is on the team because Jason bombed his FS and Vincent performed better. Max did better than Vincent head to head on 2 GPs, so if he had skated well here, he might have been on the team instead of Vincent. The fact that Max is an alternate for the Olympics and Worlds suggests that USFS still likes and supports him.

 

[moonvine]

Really??? Tell that to Sarah Hughes......She's an Olympic Champion who has ZERO National Titles. She won because she skated better than the rest of the field and that's what should have happened with Ross. As a judge, I'd want the skater that I chose based on the skating they did in front of my eyes. Ross was scored based on what he did in front of the judges under pressure......I feel like it was a slap in the face to judges as well.

It is true that Sarah has no national or world titles, but she had a good GP season. She won Skate Canada, came in 2nd in 2 other GP competitions and won bronze at the GP final. I think if Jason would have done all that he would have had a shot at the team. Ross Miner has no international placements to speak of. Yes, he has 4 bronze medals, the most recent being a bronze at the Rostelecom cup 2 years ago. That is just not enough in my opinion when there are many other US men who have done better internationally.

 

[princessalica]

The national champion isn’t guaranteed a place at the Olympics any more. That’s specifically stated, and I believe it’s also true for Worlds.

Nathan’s selection was basically automatic because he’s outperformed every US male skater for the past two years = body of work, not just because he placed first here.

How is that even remotely not humble? Adam ended up skating much longer than he thought he would in 2012. Colour me confused? Are people not watching the press conference and listening to the questions/context for the responses?

STOP THINKING OF THE NATIONALS IN AN OLYMPIC YEAR AS AN OLYMPIC TRIAL. THAT IS NOT WHAT IT IS!

I realize that.....That doesn't mean I have to like, or agree with it. There's a reason that 2014 became a huge scandal that people talk about to this very day....Ross earned that Silver Medal last night. He paced himself to peak at the right time and if others came up short, I feel bad for them but, I don't give the Silver Medalist the boot.. Has an age eligible silver medalist EVER been passed over before???

Vincent was 2nd last year and he was passed over. No he didn’t have senior scores, but they sent him to a isu comp and he was ready to compete.

 

[moonvine]

If Jason Brown really earned it based on body of work, why wasn't Ashley Wagner named?

IF she had medalled at Skate America and made the GPF, which is what was expected, I think she would have made the team with a pewter medal. That's just my guess though.

 

[princessalica]

The national champion isn’t guaranteed a place at the Olympics any more. That’s specifically stated, and I believe it’s also true for Worlds.

Nathan’s selection was basically automatic because he’s outperformed every US male skater for the past two years = body of work, not just because he placed first here.

How is that even remotely not humble? Adam ended up skating much longer than he thought he would in 2012. Colour me confused? Are people not watching the press conference and listening to the questions/context for the responses?

I think Ross can be angry about not making the team but it was also expected. He knew they were going to look at everything else- everything he didn't have too. I don't think he can be furious about that. Not even being first alternate though is a tough pill to swallow (I say this as someone who loves Jason).[/QUOTE

Agreed. I am sure Ross saw this coming.

Exactly!!!! What I can't get over is the fact that Ross won the Silver by a lot......It's not like he was 3rd and barely beat Vincent. The bigger insult is Jason being named alternate #1...How does the 6th place finisher bump a silver medalist out of anything....There is no logic here. If myself and several other devoted and knowledgeable fans are confused, can you imagine what the casual fans must think. When they see Ross off the team after the way performed in San Jose, I'm sure they're just shocked as we are.

He beat Vincent by less than 1 point 274.51 to 273.83

 

[Tavi...]

Unless they put up a rubric where you get x number of points for making the Grand Prix final and x number of points for getting a medal at nationals, etc. and show that skaters with the top points have been placed on the team, it looks unfair.

It looks like they like just like one skater better than another, then find reasons to back up their opinions. Maybe they shouldn't like Ross. Maybe he's disappointed them over the years. Or maybe they're afraid of the coaches/lawyers/parents of certain skaters and don't want to get them mad. IIRC, the story was that Polina was ready to hire a lawyer if she wasn't put on the team. Don't know if it's true or not, but I read it someplace (possibly here). Same with the story about Max's mother.

Had Nathan had a bad day, it would be one thing. He is in medal contention. Ashley was in medal contention in 2014. It was a bit of a longshot, but she did medal at the GPF. Todd Eldredge was a possibility for a medal in 1992, he had medaled the year before. This is the first time, I think, such controversy has arisen over two men who will be at best around 8th or 9th. I doubt they'll use quadless Adam in the team event, but I could be wrong.

First, if the criteria are “only” for people with medal potential, how is that fair to everyone else? Answer: it’s not. It’s like saying that if you drive a BMW it’s okay to speed but if you drive a Toyota, it’s not. The same rules should apply to everyone. What people don’t seem to get is that the USFS rules do apply to everyone, and everyone affected them is aware of the rules. You may not like rules that tell you to wear a seatbelt, but someone decided it’s a good rule and unless you’re in a position to change it, it doesn’t matter if you like it. You wear the seatbelt or risk getting a ticket.

Second, Nathan will not do the whole team event. Adam and Vincent, who are not likely to contend for an individual medal, are important because one of them will almost certainly skate the FS for the team event. So it matters who scores well consistently.

 

[combinationspin]

Don’t know if this has been posted already, but here’s an article of Christine Brennan on this issue https://t.co/Eh7PrqWTXB
It has a quote of Ross’ coach Mark Mitchell, who himself got booted from the 1992’s team for Todd Eldredge.

Mitchell, one of the classiest acts in a sport that tries one’s patience on a daily if not hourly basis, was understandably livid.

“I feel like if U.S. Figure Skating knew they weren’t going to send Ross, it’s really gutless of them to not tell him in advance,” he said in an interview Sunday morning. “You let him spend all this money and time and energy to try and achieve his dream. If you knew he couldn’t make it, why did we fly here, why did we pay for a hotel, why did we pay for training, if it was decided already?”

Mitchell wasn’t done, and who could blame him?

“How do I continue to teach kids day in and day out with hopes and dreams of making the Olympics? I would tell them work hard and do your job and it will pay off. My little kids all watched last night. Why would they come back to the rink?”

 

[princessalica]

The national champion isn’t guaranteed a place at the Olympics any more. That’s specifically stated, and I believe it’s also true for Worlds.

Nathan’s selection was basically automatic because he’s outperformed every US male skater for the past two years = body of work, not just because he placed first here.

How is that even remotely not humble? Adam ended up skating much longer than he thought he would in 2012. Colour me confused? Are people not watching the press conference and listening to the questions/context for the responses?

I think Ross can be angry about not making the team but it was also expected. He knew they were going to look at everything else- everything he didn't have too. I don't think he can be furious about that. Not even being first alternate though is a tough pill to swallow (I say this as someone who loves Jason).[/QUOTE

Agreed. I am sure Ross saw this coming.

The whole thing I think proves more then anything that Max Aaron NEVER stood a chance

he could have artistically become Nureyev and Nijinsky reincarnated and land his jumps but it would never have made them stray from the Chen-Rippon-Brown team

I think max did stand a chance. If it was max in 2nd I think it would have been more difficult to argue against him because he did have some much higher scores and a higher comparable average to both Vincent, Adam, and Jason which is why he’s on the alternate list. I feel like the only ones with a shot where boron, Aaron, Rippon, and Zhou. It would have taken Nathan basically being incapable of skating for him to lose his spot.

 

[AngelENTL]

For me, the men's decision just begs closer scrutiny of the women's decisions, both this year and in 2014. Many seem to be arguing Karen vs Ashley, but if anything I think the argument should be Mirai vs Ashley again. Ashley's BOW outshines Mirai's, and Mirai has arguably been unreliable and inconsistent over the years in a similar way to Ross Miner. So why Mirai over Ashley? Of course, we all know there was absolutely 0% chance that a 4th place Ashley would be chosen over a 2nd place Mirai this time around. But the situation is not entirely dissimilar from 4th place Adam and 2nd place Ross.

It also brings into question how they chose Edmunds over Nagasu in 2014. B/c if BOW mattered then, certainly one could easily justify Nagasu over Edmunds - and I will remind all again that Nagasu had a great showing at Rostelecom that year (in my opinion, she actually skated the long better there than at Nationals). So if 4th place Adam + BOW was sufficient to knock off 2nd place Ross + BOW in 2018, why was 4th place (edit: oops, not even 4th place but 3rd place!) Mirai + BOW insufficient to knock off 2nd place Edmunds + BOW in 2014?

I come away from all this realizing that as much as I love figure skating, it truly is more subjective than objective, and the results are about as meaningful as winning an Oscar or Grammy (i.e., it's ultimately just a popularity contest).

 

[moonvine]

Many athletes are in it for the Olympics - it's a very expensive and dangerous sport and it's only fair that those who are specifically hoping to train to get on the team might wish to know their chances of making it if they get on the Nats podium. If it is known that only a few specific skaters will be considered then many might not have invested time and money, or risk their health (concussions!) to train quads in the hopes of making it.

But there are so many who are not. Look at Sean Rabbit who, from what I can tell, trains all year specifically to give a performance at Nationals. Not to medal, but to have a moment. From what I can tell the vast majority of the skaters who qualify for Nationals by skating at Sectionals know that they are not going to podium at Nationals or make a world team EVER. I hope their coaches are straight with them about what their abilities are. They still want to go to Nationals anyway. To get a season's best or personal best or to get some competitive experience or to skate on the same ice as their idols. It's like the Olympics. Most people don't win their heat or qualify for the final or whatever. People still want to go even if they know they aren't going to win a medal.

 

[NAOTMAA]

IF she had medalled at Skate America and made the GPF, which is what was expected, I think she would have made the team with a pewter medal. That's just my guess though.

Well in the last three GP seasons Ashley has two gold medals and a bronze while Karen has yet to win, or come close to, a single medal on the circuit

I do believe Ashley was expected to make the GPF but surely as national champion (and clearly US #1 after Gracie was gone) Karen was too. If anything Karen was much worse this season then Ashley was and I would have thought expectations for her were far higher. Her record this season has to be the most disappointing for the USFSA because she was national champ and 4th at last worlds.

Ashley has a better record then Jason does, has done much more for US skating then Jason has, and did better at these nationals too, so its weird to see Jason still getting the red carpet treatment while Ashley has been uninvited

 

[Globetrotter]

For me, the men's decision just begs closer scrutiny of the women's decisions, both this year and in 2014. Many seem to be arguing Karen vs Ashley, but if anything I think the argument should be Mirai vs Ashley again. Ashley's BOW outshines Mirai's, and Mirai has arguably been unreliable and inconsistent over the years in a similar way to Ross Miner. So why Mirai over Ashley? Of course, we all know there was absolutely 0% chance that a 4th place Ashley would be chosen over a 2nd place Mirai this time around. But the situation is not entirely dissimilar from 4th place Adam and 2nd place Ross.

It also brings into question how they chose Edmunds over Nagasu in 2014. B/c if BOW mattered then, certainly one could easily justify Nagasu over Edmunds - and I will remind all again that Nagasu had a great showing at Rostelecom that year (in my opinion, she actually skated the long better there than at Nationals). So if 4th place Adam + BOW was sufficient to knock off 2nd place Ross + BOW in 2018, why was 4th place Mirai + BOW insufficient to knock off 2nd place Edmunds + BOW in 2014?

I come away from all this realizing that as much as I love figure skating, it truly is more subjective than objective, and the results are about as meaningful as winning an Oscar or Grammy (i.e., it's ultimately just a popularity contest).

And a popularity contest decided only by a handful of officials under multiple standards (read: we can choose who we want, you audience can stand aside!). Woke up this morning, flip on to GS, saw this thread and had a W.T.F. moment. This decision for the men is much more controversial than Ashley. Ross Miner should be far more furious than Ashley and I think he has arguably stronger reasons to be so.

 

[moonvine]

Here's the thing—if USFS is really so committed to the importance of "body of work," then why should the national champion get an automatic berth for Worlds/Olympics at all? Why reward a skater who just gets hot at Nationals?

They could do like men's gymnastics and have the Gold medal winner only qualify automatically if they won both the long and short program, or scored a certain number of points, or anything. When the men's gymnastics trials are held, the selection committee goes into a room with the door shut and you sit and wait for them to come out and name the team. You only qualify automatically if you are the Gold or Silver medal winner and win at least 3 of the 6 events, otherwise they do not have to take you, you sit and wait until they come out like everyone else. They're trying to select the best team because team medals in gymnastics are regarded as more prestigious than individual ones. I doubt the team figure skating medal will ever be regarded as the most prestigious but who knows.