2018 US Men's Oly/World/4CC team announced

[AngelENTL]

True she was rather inconsistent during the GP but she was top 10 twice at worlds and won 4CC, all which happened after the Olympics. She also showed enormous growth with her Moonlight Sonata SP and came close to winning those nationals. I'm not sure how it looked like she wasn't taking things seriously. It's not her fault she got injured and couldn't keep moving forward

I'm not saying she didn't take her career seriously after the Olympics. I'm saying - and I admit that this is 100% speculative - that I suspect that she would've pushed herself a lot harder this year to make the Olympic team if she hadn't already been to the Olympics.

 

[Alifyre]

I've been waiting to comment here because honestly I don't know how to feel. I really love Adam and have been rooting for him all season, and I'll admit when I saw the nationals results the first thing I did was message my girlfriend and basically rave about how Rippon deserves to make the team anyways (she puts up with so much from me bless her soul). But now that I've cooled down a little and read about the decision... it really just doesn't sit well with me how they've treated Ross. His coach made a good point -- how can we tell skaters to keep going when even a silver medal won't even get them first alternate to the olympics?

Do I think that body of work matters? Absolutely, especially since from what I can tell even top skaters really only pull off one or two perfect performances a season the way Ross did last night. I don't think he could be counted on to repeat his performance at the Olympics given his track record. But goodness, (and yes I have seen the whole thing with the criteria and know Jason would have made the team if we take nationals away, I know), as a relative newcomer to this sport I do understand the questions about why we have a nationals at all if this is going to be how things go down. If this situation had happened last year while I was entering the sport, I can't say I would have gotten as heavily invested in it as I have. The favorites are so obvious, and non-favorite skaters cannot possibly hope to attain favorite status if this is how decisions are made. It just makes the sport feel like it's all closed doors and pre-made decisions, which takes away all the... well, sport out of it. It doesn't feel like a competition this way. I've got to wonder how many skaters will look at this and see that they'll never have a shot at making a team and give up?

I don't know. I get body of work. I do think that Adam will make a better overall member of the team than Ross. But how do we reward efforts and performances outside of our core group? Especially if, when rewarded, one lights out performance might bring newfound confidence and help a skater get on track to do bigger and brighter things? The overlooking of Grant also bothers me here. We'll slaughter the depth of our field if we keep sending this message that good performances don't get anything. If someone skates lights out, it has to mean something, even if it doesn't mean going to the olympics.

 

[mikeko666]

If Ross was coached by Frank Caroll, he would be in the team. It's more political than reasonable. Mark Mitchell should do in the US what Brian Orser in Canada: to train foreign skaters to beat American skaters in Worlds and Olympics.

 

[mrrice]

Don’t know if this has been posted already, but here’s an article of Christine Brennan on this issue https://t.co/Eh7PrqWTXB
It has a quote of Ross’ coach Mark Mitchell, who himself got booted from the 1992’s team for Todd Eldredge.

Mitchell, one of the classiest acts in a sport that tries one’s patience on a daily if not hourly basis, was understandably livid.

“I feel like if U.S. Figure Skating knew they weren’t going to send Ross, it’s really gutless of them to not tell him in advance,” he said in an interview Sunday morning. “You let him spend all this money and time and energy to try and achieve his dream. If you knew he couldn’t make it, why did we fly here, why did we pay for a hotel, why did we pay for training, if it was decided already?”

Mitchell wasn’t done, and who could blame him?

“How do I continue to teach kids day in and day out with hopes and dreams of making the Olympics? I would tell them work hard and do your job and it will pay off. My little kids all watched last night. Why would they come back to the rink?”

I agree 100%........What's the point of training and making so many sacrifices if there's no way they're going to put you on the team. Tell them ahead of time and let them decide if it's worth it to travel and pay for the training just to go to 4CC......Is Ross even assigned to go there???

 

[rosacotton]

I've been waiting to comment here because honestly I don't know how to feel. I really love Adam and have been rooting for him all season, and I'll admit when I saw the nationals results the first thing I did was message my girlfriend and basically rave about how Rippon deserves to make the team anyways (she puts up with so much from me bless her soul). But now that I've cooled down a little and read about the decision... it really just doesn't sit well with me how they've treated Ross. His coach made a good point -- how can we tell skaters to keep going when even a silver medal won't even get them first alternate to the olympics?

Do I think that body of work matters? Absolutely, especially since from what I can tell even top skaters really only pull off one or two perfect performances a season the way Ross did last night. I don't think he could be counted on to repeat his performance at the Olympics given his track record. But goodness, (and yes I have seen the whole thing with the criteria and know Jason would have made the team if we take nationals away, I know), as a relative newcomer to this sport I do understand the questions about why we have a nationals at all if this is going to be how things go down. If this situation had happened last year while I was entering the sport, I can't say I would have gotten as heavily invested in it as I have. The favorites are so obvious, and non-favorite skaters cannot possibly hope to attain favorite status if this is how decisions are made. It just makes the sport feel like it's all closed doors and pre-made decisions, which takes away all the... well, sport out of it. It doesn't feel like a competition this way. I've got to wonder how many skaters will look at this and see that they'll never have a shot at making a team and give up?

I don't know. I get body of work. I do think that Adam will make a better overall member of the team than Ross. But how do we reward efforts and performances outside of our core group? Especially if, when rewarded, one lights out performance might bring newfound confidence and help a skater get on track to do bigger and brighter things? The overlooking of Grant also bothers me here. We'll slaughter the depth of our field if we keep sending this message that good performances don't get anything. If someone skates lights out, it has to mean something, even if it doesn't mean going to the olympics.

This. :agree:

 

[GGFan]

Don’t know if this has been posted already, but here’s an article of Christine Brennan on this issue https://t.co/Eh7PrqWTXB
It has a quote of Ross’ coach Mark Mitchell, who himself got booted from the 1992’s team for Todd Eldredge.

“How do I continue to teach kids day in and day out with hopes and dreams of making the Olympics? I would tell them work hard and do your job and it will pay off. My little kids all watched last night. Why would they come back to the rink?”

Regardless of what one thinks of the decision kudos to Mark for speaking out about the selection! :thumbsup: It is indeed very discouraging to those either outside the loop or those who plan their year around peaking at nationals (which has been a strategy for decades).

 

[Blades of Passion]

If you feel this way about Edmunds being an easy pick over Nagasu, not sure why you don't feel similarly about Zhou over Miner.

Huh? Miner BEAT Zhou, just like Edmunds beat Nagasu in 2014. Miner is also a better skater than Zhou, with more experience too.

The only thing Zhou has going is a relatively better ability to do Quads, but his are very flawed. At the start of the season I thought Zhou would show some consistency later into the season, but he hasn't. His technique is flawed and he continues to make mistakes.

 

[zebobes]

We can argue for ever about whether or not the decision was correct (and I think we will for the next FOUR years!!!), but I believe the USFSA absolutely followed their already published criteria. And we can argue they gave Ross Miner the same chances as Bradie Tennell. Bradie did very good at her Senior Bs, while Ross, who did well, was beaten by both Vincent and Adam at his Senior B. They gave Bradie and Ross Skate America, and we all know that Bradie skated clean and got third, beating Karen (and in a way, Ashley, who withdrew). Ross did not, and was beaten by both Adam and Nathan. So, in other words, they gave him chances all season long to build up his body of work, and unfortunately, he wasn't able to.

Ashley turned down many chances to build up her body of work. She could have gone to 4CC last year, but she let Mirai go, and Mirai got a bronze. She could have gone to a Senior B like every other competitor, but she turned the Senior Bs down. She didn't make the Grand Prix Final. She was beaten by Karen at last year's championships, last year's worlds, and this year's championships. She didn't have the body of work.

Now, I understand why Mark Mitchell is so angry, just like Mirai was so angry and disappointed four years ago. Mirai learned her lesson, and built up her body of work. She wasn't perfect, but she proved that she was worthy of the Olympic spot this year. Now, all US figure skaters know the importance of every single competition. If they do well, they will be rewarded with Senior Bs, Grand Prixs, and if they take advantage of those opportunities, they will have the body of work to get chosen for World's and Olympics.

Now, we can argue about the weighting and methodology. I think that Ross absolutely did enough to at least be first alternate over Jason, but I think the general direction the USFSA has the potential to encourage future figure skaters to value every competition, and learn how to compete in any situation.

 

[AngelENTL]

Huh? Miner BEAT Zhou, just like Edmunds beat Nagasu in 2014. Miner is also a better skater than Zhou, with more experience too.

The only thing Zhou has going is a relatively better ability to do Quads, but his are very flawed. At the start of the season I thought Zhou would show some consistency later into the season, but he hasn't. His technique is flawed and he continues to make mistakes.

It's a very reasonable argument. I happen to agree w/ the selection of Zhou over Miner - but think if they decided to do that, they should've chosen Nagasu over Edmunds; whereas you agree w/ Edmunds over Nagasu - but think if they decided to do that, they should've chosen Miner over Zhou. We both seem to think there is some kind of inconsistency with the selection methods, and that is my overall unhappiness with these selections.

 

[mrrice]

Keegan Messing in Canada right now......I bet he's so happy he doesn't have to be here for this...

I'm trying to lighten the mood.....I'll show myself out......

 

[shine]

It's a very reasonable argument. I happen to agree w/ the selection of Zhou over Miner - but think if they decided to do that, they should've chosen Nagasu over Edmunds; whereas you agree w/ Edmunds over Nagasu - but think if they decided to do that, they should've chosen Miner over Zhou. We both seem to think there is some kind of inconsistency with the selection methods, and that is my overall unhappiness with these selections.

I don’t understand why you seem to equate Ross’s circumstance with Polina’s in 2014. the two incidences are not comparable. Edmunds had a great jgp season despite the tough field prior to placing 2nd at Nationals, was arguably the most consistent US lady, and had a technical arsenal that could only be bested by Gracie. Can’t say the same about Ross’s records aside from him also placing 2nd at Nationals.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Huh? Miner BEAT Zhou, just like Edmunds beat Nagasu in 2014. Miner is also a better skater than Zhou, with more experience too.

The only thing Zhou has going is a relatively better ability to do Quads, but his are very flawed. At the start of the season I thought Zhou would show some consistency later into the season, but he hasn't. His technique is flawed and he continues to make mistakes.

Zhou and Miner split segments and were essentially tied whereas Polina won both segments over Mirai. And Mirai was the "veteran" losing to the relative newbie Edmunds... whereas it was the other way around with veteran Miner and senior (GP wise) newbie Zhou. So not the same situation.

If you were betting money any smart person would pick Zhou. Even a UR quad will rack up higher points than triples. Vincent has shown ability to at least do a quad internationally consistently whereas Miner got it together for just one competition this year.

And honestly if anyone was a betting man or woman they would probably put their money on a quite technically-flawed Zhou, who essentially tied a skates-of-his-life Miner because his level of difficulty is just way more significant.

Even with URs, Vincent's BV was 15 points higher than a good-as-it-gets.

 

[AngelENTL]

I don’t understand why you seem to equate Ross’s circumstance with Polina’s in 2014. the two incidences are not comparable. Edmunds had a great jgp season despite the tough field prior to placing 2nd at Nationals, was arguably the most consistent US lady, and had a technical arsenal that could only be bested by Gracie. Can’t say the same about Ross’s records aside from him also placing 2nd at Nationals.

Similarities:
- Both 2nd at Nationals.
- Both possessing a weaker "BOW" as per criteria set forth for this cycle. Miner's BOW clearly weaker than Zhou's. Edmunds may have had a good JGP, but that isn't part of the explicit criteria. She finished 4th at JGPF, a Tier III event. Nagasu finished 3rd at Rostelecom, a Tier II event.

It's a perfectly fair argument that different criteria were used in 2014, or that there are additional, less tangible factors that deserve weight. But my argument is to then say so. At some point you have to admit that the ultimate decision is not based on placements or body of work but on the judgment of a selection committee that does not strictly follow explicit criteria.

 

[princessalica]

You know Ashley’s comments after withdrawing at Skate America that seemed to diminish its importance because the olympics were her focus could have also played into the decision even if not mathematically. Between heron so furious and her attitude that Skate America didn’t matter much seemed to say that body of work didn’t matter and in the end she didn’t have the body of work. If she had soundly beaten Karen twice during the fall and made the Grand Prix or even been in the alternates then the decision could have been different. Also the difference in a level of a spin and a popped jump. I think tptb are making it clear to take every assignment seriously, and treat every event like it’s nationals because honestly it might be the difference between going to olympics or worlds or not. I mean look at Bradie in this season, she seems to have really taken everything seriously and played all of her cards and it built an upward momentum(which was also mentioned in the selection discussion).

 

[Blades of Passion]

The guys this season who gave the best performances are Nathan, Adam, and Ross. Adam delivered at multiple Grand Prix events and Ross delivered at the most important qualifier of all. They should be going to the Olympics.

Vincent Zhou hasn't delivered, the only time he's EVER actually skated great is one time at Junior Worlds, which is pretty insignificant. He has been hyped up as the future and having all this ability to do quads, but in fact his jumps are very flawed, his PCS are nothing special at all, and there's no way of knowing if he will ever improve. He's getting sent to the Olympics just on the hope that he might actually do all these quads. Someone shouldn't be getting rewarded for going out there and failing to do a bunch of jumps.

 

[Globetrotter]

We can argue for ever about whether or not the decision was correct (and I think we will for the next FOUR years!!!), but I believe the USFSA absolutely followed their already published criteria. And we can argue they gave Ross Miner the same chances as Bradie Tennell. Bradie did very good at her Senior Bs, while Ross, who did well, was beaten by both Vincent and Adam at his Senior B. They gave Bradie and Ross Skate America, and we all know that Bradie skated clean and got third, beating Karen (and in a way, Ashley, who withdrew). Ross did not, and was beaten by both Adam and Nathan. So, in other words, they gave him chances all season long to build up his body of work, and unfortunately, he wasn't able to.

Ashley turned down many chances to build up her body of work. She could have gone to 4CC last year, but she let Mirai go, and Mirai got a bronze. She could have gone to a Senior B like every other competitor, but she turned the Senior Bs down. She didn't make the Grand Prix Final. She was beaten by Karen at last year's championships, last year's worlds, and this year's championships. She didn't have the body of work.

Now, I understand why Mark Mitchell is so angry, just like Mirai was so angry and disappointed four years ago. Mirai learned her lesson, and built up her body of work. She wasn't perfect, but she proved that she was worthy of the Olympic spot this year. Now, all US figure skaters know the importance of every single competition. If they do well, they will be rewarded with Senior Bs, Grand Prixs, and if they take advantage of those opportunities, they will have the body of work to get chosen for World's and Olympics.

Now, we can argue about the weighting and methodology. I think that Ross absolutely did enough to at least be first alternate over Jason, but I think the general direction the USFSA has the potential to encourage future figure skaters to value every competition, and learn how to compete in any situation.

With the BOW reasoning you provided, there are indeed valid reasons for choosing Zhou over Miner. But how do you explain that Miner was not even given any consideration as being the 1st alternate in 4CC, Worlds and Olympics? Basically, the USFS is simply giving him the equivalent of turning up the nose at the silver medallist. Its not even anywhere close to the situation with hell-hath-no-fury-like-an-Ashley Wagner-scorned where she only came 4th with also no BOW to crow about. Ross Miner was 2nd at Nats but basically shoved aside and I do think he has far stronger grounds as a shoved athlete to be furious than scorned Ashley.

 

[schizoanalyst]

The guys this season who gave the best performances are Nathan, Adam, and Ross. Adam delivered at multiple Grand Prix events and Ross delivered at the most important qualifier of all. They should be going to the Olympics.

Vincent Zhou hasn't delivered, the only time he's EVER actually skated great is one time at Junior Worlds, which is pretty insignificant. He has been hyped up as the future and having all this ability to do quads, but in fact his jumps are very flawed, his PCS are nothing special at all, and there's no way of knowing if he will ever improve. He's getting sent to the Olympics just on the hope that he might actually do all these quads. Someone shouldn't be getting rewarded for going out there and failing to do a bunch of jumps.

I previously supported sending Zhou (even in this thread), but after watching several performances of him today, it's clear the jump issues are technique not just nerves. I had previously thought it was just competitive pressure and perhaps he deserves a chance. If his technique were solid and he just needed to competitively deliver, I think a different conversation would be in order.

 

[mikeko666]

Well, the 4CC selection of men clearly tells Nats results mean nothing compared to BOW. There is no point to have Nats anymore.

 

[yude]

Winning Nationals no long guarantee you a ticket to either Olympics nor Worlds. That rule was toss out last year I believed.

While the US generally has always stuck with the medalists to be the people to go to the Olympics/Worlds the actual guidelines for the selection process allows for the selection committee to look at the body of work and pick someone like Rippon this year or Wagner in 2014 who crumbled under pressure at Nationals but had a better overall season than someone who rose to the moment of Nationals. The problem is that this isn't historically what's been done in the US so now that they are going with this 'body of work' guideline they are getting a lot of negative attention for it. With the alternate and 4CCs selection that the committee chose, honestly I don't see any point behind it except to reinforce the 'Nationals aren't everything' point for the team selection.

In my opinion as far as the team selection I'm someone who likes the old way the US did things in doing it playoff style where Nationals decides who goes if you don't perform well here you've not earned a spot on an Olympics/Worlds team. In regards to this current situation my big issue is that regardless of whether Miner or Rippon went to the Olympics with a lights-out performance from either 1, neither would podium (unless a lot of craziness goes down), the only difference between the 2 is that Rippon is likely to put out a more consistent 5th-10th place finish. The Olympics doesn't affect how many spots the US gets at Worlds next year so Miner should have gone to the Olympics and then Rippon goes to World - very little drama.

This whole situation reminds me of the movie Stick it, which is about gymnastics, but at a competition a girl does a phenomenal vault and then gets a deduction for an obscure rule and the commentator says - this is why the sport loses fans, fans just saw an amazing performance and don't understand why a gymnast was not rewarded.

Thank you for your explanations

I personally feel it is simply sad that there is no guarantee for even the national champion to go to the Olympic/Worlds. It seems to me that the nationals has been losing its value in terms of deciding who to qualify, even though it is very special and precious competition for all the skaters. But if the federation is demanding consistency from the skaters all through the season, they might have to get good result from the first competition they attend not relying on the nationals' result. I will remember that and look forward to the next season, good luck to all American skaters

 

[chuckm]

People have very short memories. Here are the results from FINLANDIA 2017:

1 Boyang JIN CHN 252.60 87.15 165.45 2 3
2 Vincent ZHOU USA 250.01 76.10 173.91 6 1
3 Adam RIPPON USA 249.88 83.69 166.19 3 2
4 Mikhail KOLYADA RUS 248.50 90.45 158.05 1 5
5 Ross MINER USA 233.72 71.64 162.08 7 4


This is part of Vincent's BOW, too.