2018 US Men's Oly/World/4CC team announced

[Mathman]

On the question of the devaluing of the National Championships, I think that this is an inescapable corollary to the rising importance of international individual competition in a shrinkiing world. Yes, back in the day of Janet Lynn the U.S championship was something to aspire to. This is because the skating season consisted of Nationals and then Worlds, period. (Although there was also theill-fated North American Championships in those days, alternating betwee the U.S. and Canada).

Worlds was hardly covered in the U.S., so it was a big deal to win the gold or silver medal at the U.S. championships. Janet Lynn never won a world or Olympic championship, but having won 4 U.S. titles she went pro with a contract that made her the highest-paid female athlete in the world.

Now? Different times.

 

[Violet Bliss]

People have very short memories. Here are the results from FINLANDIA 2017:

1 Boyang JIN CHN 252.60 87.15 165.45 2 3
2 Vincent ZHOU USA 250.01 76.10 173.91 6 1
3 Adam RIPPON USA 249.88 83.69 166.19 3 2
4 Mikhail KOLYADA RUS 248.50 90.45 158.05 1 5
5 Ross MINER USA 233.72 71.64 162.08 7 4


This is part of Vincent's BOW, too.

Even here Vincent and Ross were much stronger in the LP than SP.

 

[fenway3]

For the Olympics, quite a while ago (8 years?). It was said at the time that the reason was a legal one: if the winner of Nationals automatically went to the Olympics, then Nationals could be regarded as the official Olympic qualifying event and as such would fall under the jurisdiction of the U.S. Olympic Committee rather than of the USFSA.

For worlds, they slipped it in without fanfare a couple of years ago on the basis that the criteria for worlds should be the same as for the Olympics.

But I think the real reason is that the USFSA felt that they were falling behind other countries which had strong federations that boldly took a firm hand in shaping the teams that they send to international competitions.

Thanks for the helpful info, Mathman. Yes, I think your last paragraph sums it up. As Janet Jackson once put it: "It's all about control."

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

People have very short memories. Here are the results from FINLANDIA 2017:

1 Boyang JIN CHN 252.60 87.15 165.45 2 3
2 Vincent ZHOU USA 250.01 76.10 173.91 6 1
3 Adam RIPPON USA 249.88 83.69 166.19 3 2
4 Mikhail KOLYADA RUS 248.50 90.45 158.05 1 5
5 Ross MINER USA 233.72 71.64 162.08 7 4


This is part of Vincent's BOW, too.

I was about to bring this up - in their only international head to head Vincent easily beat Ross and with a phenomenal FS (with essentially 4 quads).

Nationals is very important but I disagree that it should be super heavily weighted -- after all, it simply might not reflect how skaters are assessed internationally and how they can handle the pressure of non-domestic competition.

Ross was abysmal internationally in the past year. Zhou has a far better reputation than Miner -- who wasn't even in the podium conversation, by anyone.

He should be perhaps rewarded more than 4CC but logic and results overwhelmingly put Zhou as a way better bet.

As mentioned, Zhou with multiple errors essentially tied Miner at his best. Zhou can only really go up, whereas Miner has most likely had his top competition of the season.

 

[shyne]

I'm not going to read through 24 pages of comments since I'm still upset at the selection results. I think choosing Adam and Vicent over Ross for Olympics is expected, over for Worlds is understandable, but naming someone finished 2nd place at Nationals as the second alternates at Worlds is just WRONG.
It really undermines the importance of the Nationals. If I had a successful season at the GP and Worlds last year, can I just strategically skip Nationals to put myself in a better position for the selection process?

Sorry if some of the things I mentioned are redundant, I just want to express my hope to see more transparency in the future selection process.
I think it's very reasonable for skaters to know ahead of time, precisely what placement or score he/she needs to finish to secure a seat in the future competition so they can decide if they want to compete. Don't give them false hope and impossible goals. Make a point/score system for the selection process, South Korea has it; China has it.
For the South Korean skaters who had their nationals at the same weekend as the Americans, they (and the judges) knew exactly how many points they had to score ahead of their competitors to go to the Olympics.

It is very expansive to prepare and travel to a particular competition. For some skaters at the end of their career, they should have the option to retire and not compete at the nationals if they can't make the Olympics team even with a win at nationals.
There is apparently no established protocols for how much each competition weights.
Come on, ISU stated themself that the vote was 11-1 for choosing Adam over Ross. They just sit there and VOTE for who's on the team. Figure Skating is a SPORT, not a popularity contest. MAKE A PROTOCOL with NUMBERS! Don't give skaters false hope.

Ross worked really hard for his two performances at the Nationals. He should have the opition to spend his time and energy elsewhere if before this competition even started, his only option is to go to 4CC.

 

[moonvine]

Sincere non-argumentative questions re Max:

I have only rare access to the Olympic Channel, so I am surprised to hear that the Olympic Channel had been promoting Max.
It would please me to know that OC considered him to be in the mix. (Up until the Men's SP.)

Then I assume that Olympic Channel had been promoting Adam too? How about Vincent?​

What was the "story about Max's mother" and what was the source of the story? Something in relation to 2014?

(Sorry that I have not read the whole thread. I don't have a recollection of any such story?)​

---

Regarding Grant:

I spoke to Grant's mother mid-week. She basically told me that nothing was final regarding the possibility of retirement after this season.​

Lets see. All the skaters I have seen in commercials on TOC. Max and Jason in a Team USA apparel commercial. Jason in a spot saying "the Olympics, oh the Olympics" with that big Jason smile. Ashley talking about how she wanted to become an Olympian after seeing Tara's gold medal skate. Ashley and the Shib sibs (and other athletes) in a spot reciting the 3rd stanza of America the Beautiful - I liked that one until I saw it 20,000 times. Nathan has 2, one where they interview him when he was 10 and he says he's going to the Olympics in 2018, and one with his mother, but I think that one is one of his sponsors. Of course I watch TOC obsessively. Anyway that is all the skaters I remember. IT is pretty clear that they expected Ashley to be the #1 American lady. I wonder if they will retool this stuff now.

 

[moonvine]

Zhou and Miner split segments and were essentially tied whereas Polina won both segments over Mirai. And Mirai was the "veteran" losing to the relative newbie Edmunds... whereas it was the other way around with veteran Miner and senior (GP wise) newbie Zhou. So not the same situation.

If you were betting money any smart person would pick Zhou. Even a UR quad will rack up higher points than triples. Vincent has shown ability to at least do a quad internationally consistently whereas Miner got it together for just one competition this year.

And honestly if anyone was a betting man or woman they would probably put their money on a quite technically-flawed Zhou, who essentially tied a skates-of-his-life Miner because his level of difficulty is just way more significant.

Even with URs, Vincent's BV was 15 points higher than a good-as-it-gets.

I am so anxious to see how much they downgrade quads. I hope next year they won't be the be all and end all.

 

[fenway3]

STOP THINKING OF THE NATIONALS IN AN OLYMPIC YEAR AS AN OLYMPIC TRIAL. THAT IS NOT WHAT IT IS!

I realize that.....That doesn't mean I have to like, or agree with it. There's a reason that 2014 became a huge scandal that people talk about to this very day....Ross earned that Silver Medal last night. He paced himself to peak at the right time and if others came up short, I feel bad for them but, I don't give the Silver Medalist the boot.. Has an age eligible silver medalist EVER been passed over before???

Excellent points.

I think the whole policy has the effect of devaluing Nationals. Many years ago, it was exciting to the casual fan to watch Nationals to see who would make it to the Olympics. Yes, the judges would often hold up their favorites, but there was always the possibility that someone would deliver a great performance and sneak onto the team. But if the team is largely pre-determined, exactly where is the suspense or excitement in that? ZZZZZZZZZZ. In fact, why should the casual fan even bother watching Nationals at all? Just one more possible reason that ratings for skating are in decline.

Way back in '93, Todd Eldredge got 6th at Nationals. Even though he had significantly more "body of work" than Scott Davis, it would've been a shame to see Davis get booted off the team. Similarly, when Rudy Galindo won the title in '96, would it have been right for the USFSA to tell him, "Sorry, Rudy. Great performances to win, but you just don't have enough 'body of work' to let us send you to Worlds"?

Besides, it's hard to argue against great results at a high-pressure event right before the Olympics or Worlds. Even if the skater didn't have a stellar fall season, they may well be peaking at just the right time.

Anyway, it's sad to see USFS turn Nationals, which was once a very exciting event, into a real borefest.

 

[moonvine]

Well, the 4CC selection of men clearly tells Nats results mean nothing compared to BOW. There is no point to have Nats anymore.

To crown a national champion and to have the most important competition many skaters will EVER compete in. Sure there is.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Zhou and Miner split segments and were essentially tied

They shouldn't have been. Miner was held down, the detail of his choreography and skating ability is significantly better than Zhou's and the PCS did not accurately reflect it.

Vincent has shown ability to at least do a quad internationally consistently whereas Miner got it together for just one competition this year

Doing a quad consistently doesn't mean anything by itself. Vincent has not delivered at ANY competition. He has "got it together" for 0 competitions this year. 1 is more than 0. Ross at Nationals is better than anything Vincent did all season and better than anything Vincent has EVER done as a Senior.

 

[SarahSynchro]

Lets see. All the skaters I have seen in commercials on TOC. Max and Jason in a Team USA apparel commercial. Jason in a spot saying "the Olympics, oh the Olympics" with that big Jason smile. Ashley talking about how she wanted to become an Olympian after seeing Tara's gold medal skate. Ashley and the Shib sibs (and other athletes) in a spot reciting the 3rd stanza of America the Beautiful - I liked that one until I saw it 20,000 times. Nathan has 2, one where they interview him when he was 10 and he says he's going to the Olympics in 2018, and one with his mother, but I think that one is one of his sponsors. Of course I watch TOC obsessively. Anyway that is all the skaters I remember. IT is pretty clear that they expected Ashley to be the #1 American lady. I wonder if they will retool this stuff now.

Wow, I hope you’re drinking lots of wine when you’re watching all that fluffy, sentimental, cheese.

 

[ivy]

I don't understand the link between the men's and women's selection people are trying to draw. Chen beat Wagner at Natls 18, SA 18, Worlds 17 and Natls 17. All of the competitions that matter. How could the committee not select her?

Rippon did loose to Miner this year, at Natls. And the rest of his BOW record is not that great. Overall better then Miner's, but not really impressive. If he was the top men's finisher for the U.S. at world's last year; that'd be different

 

[mikeko666]

To crown a national champion and to have the most important competition many skaters will EVER compete in. Sure there is.

Everyone knew Nathan was going to win. No competition was necessary. Max being chosen as 3rd alternate and for 4CC sends a clear message: Nats means nothing.

 

[fenway3]

It looks like they like just like one skater better than another, then find reasons to back up their opinions.

That's essentially the point Brennan made in her latest article. Yes, I know. . . stopped clock . . . twice a day.

 

[Mathman]

If you were betting money any smart person would pick Zhou

I am a smart person. I would lke to bet. What am I betting on?

Am I betting on who is most deserving to go to the Olympics?

 

[shiroKJ]

Reading about Ross's coach and his reaction + his own similar experience at US nat's was depressing Just a horrible situation all around, sucks for everyone involved...

 

[Blades of Passion]

Zhou can only really go up, whereas Miner has most likely had his top competition of the season.

This is such a fallacy. There is NOTHING at all that points to Vincent "only being able to go up" and Ross not being able to improve or only get worse. Ross has done SP's with a Quad in the past and he could add that in for the Olympics. Maybe he could even do a 2nd Quad Sal in the LP. If people are expecting Vincent to suddenly do better than he ever has before, then that expectation also needs to be allowed of Ross. When Ross went to his first Senior International competition ever, 2011 Worlds, he skated better than he ever had before. It's wrong to act like Ross is incapable and Vincent is a miracle worker.

 

[gottadance]

They shouldn't have been. Miner was held down, the detail of his choreography and skating ability is significantly better than Zhou's and the PCS did not accurately reflect it.



Doing a quad consistently doesn't mean anything by itself. Vincent has not delivered at ANY competition. He has "got it together" for 0 competitions this year. 1 is more than 0. Ross at Nationals is better than anything Vincent did all season and better than anything Vincent has EVER done as a Senior.

Oh for heavens sake .... Vincent came 2nd at Finlandia and in so doing beat Miner. He WON Jr Worlds 2017 so how can you possibly say he has not delivered at any competition. I would say the contrary is true - he delivered at the 2017 Nationals ,was sent to Jr Worlds where he delivered again and now delivered at 2018 Nationals. Yes he had a poor Grand Prix season but he only just turned 16 so it is natural that there will be ups and downs .

 

[shyne]

Now, we can argue about the weighting and methodology. I think that Ross absolutely did enough to at least be first alternate over Jason, but I think the general direction the USFSA has the potential to encourage future figure skaters to value every competition, and learn how to compete in any situation.

But the other way to look at this is it also devalues the importance of the Nationals and allow skaters to develop the habit of bombing a competition once in a while. You get multiple chances to prove yourself.
It also cannot mimic the competition environment of Worlds and Olympics~ you don't feel the same pressure knowing you have results from the previous season backing you up.

 

[GGFan]

To be honest, I don't think they'll ever be able to square the circle here. Given the history of US figure skating some of us are never going to get comfortable with this level of heavy handed engineering from the fed. It's much harder to accept body of work when they boot the second and not third place finisher.

I guess I could understand if you had a weak second place finisher, who skated sloppy but just benefit from everyone messing up. But that wasn't the case here. Ross skated clean throughout. Excluding the 3rd place finisher, though still unpleasant has some precedent. I'm much more comfortable with the federation setting up some kind of minimum standards. But they already had two bites at that: there are minimum scores and there's judging.

Nationals becoming just another competition certainly makes it less exciting and unique. The whole point of actually competing is that surprises happen and if someone can make it happen when it counts they should be rewarded.