2018 US Men's Oly/World/4CC team announced

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Doing a quad consistently doesn't mean anything by itself. Vincent has not delivered at ANY competition. He has "got it together" for 0 competitions this year. 1 is more than 0. Ross at Nationals is better than anything Vincent did all season and better than anything Vincent has EVER done as a Senior.

But Miner internationally has been supremely mediocre in comparison to Vincent. He did not have a single solid international in the past year, whereas Vincent has had Junior Worlds, a silver at Finlandia (landing 4 ratified quads in the FS) and 4th at COC.

The fact that Miner was 0.68 points higher than Zhou after skating his very best, and Zhou having 6 tech calls, makes it painfully obvious that Zhou is the smarter choice.

It was a great achievment placing 2nd at Nationals but this was a one-off result for Miner if we consider competitions from the past 2 seasons (which the US team selection criteria is defined by). Or even competitions from this season.

And even though Miner fully deserved the win, if I were placing money, I would 100% still bet on Zhou scoring higher overall.

Zhou's international scores this season: 222.21, 250.01, 256.66 (average: 242.63)

Miner's international scores this season: 219.62, 219.96, 233.72 (average: 224.43)

And somehow Miner at his best beating Zhou far-from-his-best by 0.68 at Nationals negates that?! Please.

The only thing that kept Miner in the Olympic conversation should have been if Nationals was a team trials - which it has been stated many times, is not. Even if the only criteria was just Nationals it'd be sending Miner based on purely fairness/his placement - and not because it's a *logical* decision based on how he has competed and been assessed internationally relative to others.

 

[Mathman]

Reading about Ross's coach and his reaction + his own similar experience at US nat's was depressing Just a horrible situation all around, sucks for everyone involved...

I wonder what Mark Michell will do in the coming weeks to walk back his emotional outburst. Will he tell the children he coaches to come back, he didn't really mean that he was leaving skating for good? (What is Mark's day job?)

I think it is important to explain to young skaters that this is a judged sport. That sometimes things will not go their way and they will feel like the judges are against them. But that when this happens at least they will have their parents, coaches and other adults around to keep things in perspective.

 

[Violet Bliss]

The Olympics is all about one off. BOW means absolutely zero. Ditto World Championships.

 

[GGFan]

The Olympics is all about one off. BOW means absolutely zero. Ditto World Championships.

And it's that spontaneity that Nationals used to acknowledge. A one off amazing performance should be rewarded because figure skating is still (in theory) about rewarding the best skater on the night.

If we're going to start giving lifetime achievement Olympic medals then I need Michelle to get hers stat!

 

[NAOTMAA]

I wonder what Mark Michell will do in the coming weeks to walk back his emotional outburst. Will he tell the children he coaches to come back, he didn't really mean that he was leaving skating for good? (What is Mark's day job?)

I think it is important to explain to young skaters that this is a judged sport. That sometimes things will not go their way and they will feel like the judges are against them. But that when this happens at least they will have their parents, coaches and other adults around to keep things in perspective.

Technically though the judges did go for Ross. It was the powers behind the scenes (the USFSA) that snatched it away

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The Olympics is all about one off. BOW means absolutely zero. Ditto World Championships.

Yes. But the USFSA is concerned with sending their best skaters, not their top 3 finishers from Nationals. To determine the best, you need a larger sample size of results, not to mention scenarios that are more akin to an Olympics - against international competitors.

Yes, Miner excelled under pressure, but he hasn't done that internationally in he past 2 seasons whereas Zhou/Rippon/Chen/Brown/Aaron have.

 

[GGFan]

Technically though the judges did go for Ross. It was the powers behind the scenes (the USFSA) that snatched it away

Yes, this isn't an Ashley situation. Contextually we have a coach who was left off a team only to see his student get even worse treatment (since he was second). He was not crying foul about scoring. I don't think anyone told Mark or Ross that he was completely out of the running by the start of Nationals. All of the students back home thought that if he did great he would go to the Olympics. That's a much more difficult lesson to have to teach your students.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Vincent came 2nd at Finlandia and in so doing beat Miner. He WON Jr Worlds 2017 so how can you possibly say he has not delivered at any competition. I would say the contrary is true - he delivered at the 2017 Nationals ,was sent to Jr Worlds where he delivered again and now delivered at 2018 Nationals. Yes he had a poor Grand Prix season but he only just turned 16 so it is natural that there will be ups and downs.

Finlandia doesn't matter. It's an early season competition and Vincent's showing there was not some kind of landmark. Nor did Vincent "deliver" at either 2017 or 2018 Nationals. His skating at Nationals 2017 was entirely Junior level and he received inflated PCS just for doing a Quad. In 2018 he is a degree better but still far inferior to top level quality PCS. None of these showings are close to medal contender worthy for the Olympics.

Ross at Nationals skated better than Vincent ever has at a Senior event. Vincent's one great showing has been at a JUNIOR event. If the committee said their goal was picking the most likely people to medal, then Ross at Nationals showed he can deliver better than Vincent ever has at this level.

It's also unfair to just write off Vincent's inconsistency as him being 16. There's no reason to give him leeway for ups and downs and not Ross. If anything that should be further reason against sending Vincent - he doesn't have as much experience as Ross.

 

[GGFan]

Yes. But the USFSA is concerned with sending their best skaters, not their top 3 finishers from Nationals. To determine the best, you need a larger sample size of results, not to mention scenarios that are more akin to an Olympics - against international competitors.

Yes, Miner excelled under pressure, but he hasn't done that internationally in he past 2 seasons whereas Zhou/Rippon/Chen/Brown/Aaron have.

Well then there should be a transparent ranking that is posted with some kind of formula and everyone who comes to Nationals can know ahead of time whether they have a true shot or not. Telling us tiers still leaves out how much you're weighing each tier.

 

[NAOTMAA]

And it's that spontaneity that Nationals used to acknowledge. A one off amazing performance should be rewarded because figure skating is still (in theory) about rewarding the best skater on the night.

If we're going to start giving lifetime achievement Olympic medals then I need Michelle to get hers stat!

nationals was always (i guess until this year ) promoted as do or die. The hardest competition of the year because it will decide the fate of your season. Do you go to worlds or Olympics or not? If you bombed, too bad your done! Maybe there were other competitions later on but no worlds and no Olympics for you! PERIOD.

It's been like that for so long I doubt they can convince the public otherwise no matter how many times Johnny or Tara mention it. Although despite saying that on the night itself Johnny and Tara still gave the feeling that nationals meant something bigger then just another medal because even they still acted like that competition decided the team

 

[beki]

I don’t understand the double standard for male and female underrotators. Everyone is clamoring for Mirai, Karen and Ashley to get their acts together, all the while hyping up Vincent’s technical ability as if he were landing his jumps cleanly.

 

[GGFan]

I don’t understand the double standard for male and female underrotators. Everyone is clamoring for Mirai, Karen and Ashley to get their acts together, all the while hyping up Vincent’s technical ability as if he were landing his jumps cleanly.

I agree that there's a bias. But I think Vincent might just be benefitting from great timing. The ladies you refer to have been around longer. He just came along so he's seen as someone who still has huge upside. Some folks also probably think that he will gain strength as he ages so his jumps will improve.

 

[padme21]

Good gracious I don't know why everyone so against Vincent being named on the team. I was perfectly okay with it as were my parents. As far as I'm concerned Vincent earned his place when he finished second at last year'sNationals, first Junior worlds, and second at Finlandia trophy. I knew there was no way Ross was getting on that team not with his he just can't score that well internationally its it was a no-brainer I think it should have been explained better to the figure skating public however they weren't so confused and outraged over this seeming Injustice the only Injustice I can think of is the fact that he was named not first but second alternate. Congrats to Nathan, Vincent, and Adam!

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I think Nathan and Ross should have gone to the Olympics without question. The choice should have been between Adam and Vincent and it should have been apparent. If it’s between Adam and Ross it’s pretty easy for me. It’s not like Adam is some podium threat who had a misstep. Maybe it’s harsh but he blew an opportunity that someone else seized upon.

It just has a bad vibe all around. They really need to remove the announcement/presser of the National team from an event that has such little impact on the selection. I don’t even see the point in tying the two together. They should just go bowling together and trade their favors over a few gutter balls and take a reporter along. What’s the difference really?

 

[Blades of Passion]

The fact that Miner was 0.68 points higher than Zhou after skating his very best, and Zhou having 6 tech calls, makes it painfully obvious that Zhou is the smarter choice.

There is nothing that says Zhou will skate better in the future, this WAS his best at a Senior event, all your talk about Zhou not skating his best is just wrong. Miner's best was better than Zhou's and the scoring was wrong on top of that, in favor of Zhou. The scores at Nationals are largely based on reputation and Miner was held down (or Zhou inflated on PCS, whichever way you want to look at it), yet still managed to beat Zhou with no political push behind him.

 

[GGFan]

They should just go bowling together and trade their favors over a few gutter balls and take a reporter along. What’s the difference really?

 

[Tavi...]

I wonder what Mark Michell will do in the coming weeks to walk back his emotional outburst. Will he tell the children he coaches to come back, he didn't really mean that he was leaving skating for good? (What is Mark's day job?)

I think it is important to explain to young skaters that this is a judged sport. That sometimes things will not go their way and they will feel like the judges are against them. But that when this happens at least they will have their parents, coaches and other adults around to keep things in perspective.

And to add to that, it is important to explain that under the current rules, doing very well at one competition is great, but not a guarantee of anything more than the medal. You have to do well over a period of time. Then you support them, listen to them, guide them, and encourage them to persevere.

Honestly, I don’t see how Mark Mitchell can possibly argue that he didn’t know about the criteria. I barely followed skating 4 years ago, and I knew that Ashley was selected over Mirai and why. It happened in Boston. Mark Mitchell was there, with Ross. The criteria for this Olympics were published. The skaters were told. I feel for Ross. But it’s simply not credible to me that Mark Mitchell didn’t know and is now questioning his involvement with the sport. And to put it bluntly, while the lack of a guarantee may be frustrating, it’s pretty much the way most of life operates. JMO.

 

[TCAngel18]

There is nothing that says Zhou will skate better in the future, this WAS his best at a Senior event, all your talk about Zhou not skating his best is just wrong. Miner's best was better than Zhou's and the scoring was wrong on top of that, in favor of Zhou. The scores at Nationals are largely based on reputation and Miner was held down (or Zhou inflated on PCS, whichever way you want to look at it), yet still managed to beat Zhou with no political push behind him.

Exactlyyyyyy. That’s like the federation saying “maybe he won’t have UR problems”.

He ALWAYS has underrotation problems. There is nothing more Vincent can add, unless he reworks his jumping technique.

By rewarding him now with an Olympic berth, they are setting Vincent Zhou up to fail.

 

[bobbob]

Based on the published criteria (tier 1, tier 2, tier 3), assuming all results stand, Zhou and Rippon should obviously be sent over Ross...the only thing Ross has is a fraction of a point at nationals over Zhou and a few more points over Rippon, but Rippon's GPF makes up for a few points, and Vincent is way stronger in tier 2 and tier 3. Similarly, based on published criteria, Karen should be sent over Ashley--she does better on all tier 1 criteria. There really isn't any debate on that. So,I think the right choices were made based on published criteria.

The secondary issue is whether nationals was judged fairly. In the ladies case, Ashley's deflated PCS may have cost her 3rd place. If she got her normal PCS relative to Karen, that would tie her with Karen in tier one because Karen did do a few points better at worlds last year, and then she had arguably a slightly stronger GP series (not really but i guess?) and that would put her ahead maybe? In mens, Vincent's PCS was inflated more than Ross, but Adam was held up too, so i don't know if the overall placements would change. But perhaps with a bigger gap there would be a stronger case for Ross? It is hard to say

 

[GGFan]

And to add to that, it is important to explain that under the current rules, doing very well at one competition is great, but not a guarantee of anything more than the medal. You have to do well over a period of time. Then you support them, listen to them, guide them, and encourage them to persevere.

Honestly, I don’t see how Mark Mitchell can possibly argue that he didn’t know about the criteria. I barely followed skating 4 years ago, and I knew that Ashley was selected over Mirai and why. It happened in Boston. Mark Mitchell was there, with Ross. The criteria for this Olympics were published. The skaters were told. I feel for Ross. But it’s simply not credible to me that Mark Mitchell didn’t know and is now questioning his involvement with the sport. And to put it bluntly, while the lack of a guarantee may be frustrating, it’s pretty much the way most of life operates. JMO.

I don't think the two things you mention are mutually exclusive: 1) the criteria was published and Mark knew about it and 2) Mark may not have understood all of the implications of said criteria. Note that what he's most pissed about was that Ross was not in the pool of potential Olympians at all. Mark could have thought to himself, "if Ross skates clean with a quad in the free and makes the podium he has a chance." The team announcement implies that there was nothing Ross could have done. The USFS never explicitly said that beforehand.