- Joined
- Apr 1, 2014
Well, there you have it. Seems like they picked top 3 for Worlds/Olympics and the next 3 for 4CC.
2018 US Men's Oly/World/4CC team announced
- Thread starter gsk8
- Start date
Well, there you have it. Seems like they picked top 3 for Worlds/Olympics and the next 3 for 4CC.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2012
Calculations that you have chosen to make (for whatever reason).
But we have no reason to believe that the USFS selection committee made such calculations.
We do not know precisely how the committee arrived at its decisions.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
Well, you actually you were the one who brought up knowledge in your last post.
But to your points: I don’t see how it was totally unprecedented unless you see some huge difference between places 2 and 3 - and I don’t. (1) Mirai, who got a standing ovation, was bumped by Ashley, who fell on her butt, in 2014. Everyone knew why - it was because of Ashley’s international results. (2) Also in 2014, Max, who placed third, was sent to Worlds in over Jason, who was named to the Olympic team. You can argue that it was to reward Max for placing third, but you can also argue that they split the assignments because of his body of work - 2013 Nats champion and 7th at Worlds versus Jason, who, though new to seniors, had earned GP and Sr B medals, as well as taking silver at JWC with the then highest ever FS score. (3) Last season, Jason, who placed third at Nats, was sent to Worlds over Vincent, who placed second. Olympic spots were on the line. Aside from the fact that Vincent didn’t yet have Worlds minimums, Jason had a proven track record of performing well in high-pressure situations.
Were those factual scenarios exactly the same as this one? No. But there’s enough recent evidence to to put competitors on notice that exceptions have been made with World and Olympic team assignments.
It’s also pretty clear that other competitors got the message that results other than Nationals matter. They may not have known exactly how much, but it seems to have motivated them to not to leave anything to chance, and to strive to do their best at every competition they were offered. I don’t buy the idea that some people were told and others were left in the dark, and again, MM is not a newbie coach. I think that some people are more intrinsically motivated than others to take control of what they can when something is important to them. Ross was given three opportunities to build his body of work before Nats this season, but he didn’t take advantage of them. Others did.
- Joined
- May 1, 2015
I should have said, sorry
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2012
In 2014, GPs were *not* among the selection criteria for Worlds.
The selection criteria for 2014 Worlds were not the same as for Sochi.
And in 2014, Senior Bs were not among the selection criteria for Worlds or for the Olympics.
Well, you actually you were the one who brought up knowledge in your last post.
But to your points: I don’t see how it was totally unprecedented unless you see some huge difference between places 2 and 3 - and I don’t. (1) Mirai, who got a standing ovation, was bumped by Ashley, who fell on her butt, in 2014. Everyone knew why - it was because of Ashley’s international results. (2) Also in 2014, Max, who placed third, was sent to Worlds in over Jason, who was named to the Olympic team. You can argue that it was to reward Max for placing third, but you can also argue that they split the assignments because of his body of work - 2013 Nats champion and 7th at Worlds versus Jason, who, though new to seniors, had earned GP and Sr B medals, as well as taking silver at JWC with the then highest ever FS score. (3) Last season, Jason, who placed third at Nats, was sent to Worlds over Vincent, who placed second. Olympic spots were on the line. Aside from the fact that Vincent didn’t yet have Worlds minimums, Jason had a proven track record of performing well in high-pressure situations.
That's the heart of the matter: there is a group of fans that see the two as distinguishable. I'm a very analytical person and I think the analogy falls apart there. 2nd place is different and none of us had seen that happen before. You're jumping over the third place finisher. I'm coming from the standpoint (and Mark seems to be as well) of bumping being something very rare and in those cases you should go after the 3rd place finisher.
Your original post was about it being virtually impossible that Mark did not realize. Your percentage was close to 100%. All I'm saying is that I have a lot more doubt. We saw the criteria but didn't know the weights. Why would Mark be delusional to think there was a chance for Ross to make it with a great performance?
Well, in the past, Martha Stewart was known for stealing a lot of her "ideas" from others, so I wouldn't be too surprised if Hersh read your comment first. If that's the case, then I should've said that you offered some excellent suggestions instead.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2012
Off topic, but AFAIK, Hersh is happy to give credit to others.
My personal experience:
I once e-mailed him about something, and he later mentioned me by name in his tweet that gave a link that I had cited in my e-mail.
OK, that's good to hear.
Ross was dropped from 2nd at Nationals to 5th in the Olympic (and Worlds) selection process. That is completely unprecedented. If you disagree, please give an example where that happened before. A prior example of falling from 3rd to 4th (one place) is not a precedent for falling 3 places.
In tier one events, Ross had better results than Vincent. Ross scored 274.51 on Saturday, which appears to be higher than Vincent has ever scored. Ross also had better finishes in tier one events than either Jason or Adam (a silver, while neither of the other two were even top 3 in a tier one event, and Jason has a best of 6th), and his 274.51 on Saturday is better than it looks like Adam has ever scored, and Jason has scored since 2015.
The selection criteria are very vague, but apparently tier 2 and 3 results are more important than tier 1 results.
In tier one events, Ross had better results than Vincent. Ross scored 274.51 on Saturday, which appears to be higher than Vincent has ever scored. Ross also had better finishes in tier one events than either Jason or Adam (a silver, while neither of the other two were even top 3 in a tier one event, and Jason has a best of 6th), and his 274.51 on Saturday is better than it looks like Adam has ever scored, and Jason has scored since 2015.
The selection criteria are very vague, but apparently tier 2 and 3 results are more important than tier 1 results.
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
https://twitter.com/rockerskating/status/949865969056284672
That should help illustrate just how many criteria were being met by the guys.
Ross met the same criteria as Vincent - a top 3 at Nationals. He got silver to Vincent's bronze by less than a point. That's essentially a tie and hardly a definite, "wow Ross totally destroyed Vincent on tier 1 criteria!" Not to mention, if Zhou had gone to Worlds - as the silver medalist last year at Nationals - instead of Brown, he would have had another tier 1 result to add to his case instead of a tier 3 criteria of JW.
Miner had edged Zhou out on tier 1 criteria... but then had three tier 3 criteria to zero tier 3 criteria for Miner which obviously tipped the scales in his favour.
And then of course the scoring. Miner never scored well once internationally. As pointed out, he had 3 GP events and 3 Challenger series and placed 9th (CoC 2016), 12th (SC 2016), 6th (Skate America 2016), and 5th (Finlandia 2017), 6th (Autumn Classic 2017), 6th (US Classic 2016).
I don't like to use the F word but I'm interested to see if this silver was a Fluke or if he could replicate even close to the incredible level of skating he showed at Nationals at 4CC.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
It's the overall body of work, including good and bad events, not just Tier 1 results. Vincent is a 2x Nationals medalist and JWC who was himself already a victim of BoW. Adam and Jason are GP Finalists who have more consistent results. Ross needed to pair his Nationals silver with better international results; he had opportunities to do that this season but failed to do so.
If it makes Ross feel any better... Jun Hyung earned Men's ticket for South Korea, but he was not able to go to the Olympics because his overall (not just the nationals) score for Olympics criteria fell short by ~3 points. It's unfortunate for both skaters, but I guess the selection criteria is there for a reason. If USFSA felt Ross' overall performance wasn't enough including USA nationals, it's sad to say, but I guess it is what it is.
Perhaps there should be more transparent criteria for general audience to look into so that people are not confused when they see a silver medalist not making to the Olympics team.
Perhaps there should be more transparent criteria for general audience to look into so that people are not confused when they see a silver medalist not making to the Olympics team.
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
While this isn't how they did do it, obviously, it's a good illustration to see how skaters' seasons have been shaping up. Dropping the lowest competitions is suitable (and even though that benefits skaters like Chen, Rippon and Brown - if they made it to the GPF they probably had way better scores than others anyways).
This also shows what I was thinking -- the only other option wasn't Miner but Brown, who had some strong international results.
Interestingly though, Rippon, Brown, Zhou and Aaron all tapered off technically come Nationals and struggled under pressure. I find it a little bit weird when people say Miner and Hochstein excelled under pressure - obviously they faced pressure -- everyone at Nationals did. But Miner/Hochstein had nothing to lose, whereas Rippon/Brown/Zhou/Aaron had much higher expectations.
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- Jan 25, 2013
100% they should be more transparent. But they've said for a long time that Nationals isn't the only criteria - so if people are confused, then that should be explained to them.
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- Oct 26, 2016
This will never be formal criteria, but this is actually fairly important to consider I think. Brown, Rippon, and Zhou all know they aren't going to individually medal. For them, getting to the Olympics is the prize (and a likely team event medal). Miner never could have thought he would go - it was just about giving a performance. Miner having zero pressure is something to consider. Even still, he barely beat Zhou and only beat Rippon by 6 points with mistakes that are very uncharacteristic for Adam. I know people object to the PCS scoring of Zhou (I do too), however.
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- Jan 23, 2009
I dunno, Miner's coach is quitting this sport in protest over Miner not being named to the Olympic team ....
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- Oct 26, 2016
After the fact he won Silver. I was speaking of prior to the event. If Miner or his coach thought he had a shot prior, they were delusional.
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2009
I suppose that's true. He did score 50 points less than Adam at Skate America, which was only a few months ago. He was such a long shot that the USFed didn't even make a "my goal is ...." video for him on their YouTube channel
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2014
There was three slots, NONE of the contenders were Olympic medalists, World Champs, or even 2017 world medalists. Other than Nathan, everyone elses "body of work" is considered insignificant on the international scene. Every skater there deserves a chance at an Olympic dream and deserves to fight for a spot, whether the USFSA honors it or not. Someone like you is not qualified to take other people's dreams and passion lightly/dissmissed them. Cancel yourself ASASP.
Honestly, I'm fine with them choosing Adam but the replies I see about Ross and his Coach's feelings towards the decision is just making my blood boil.
