Nathan Chen | Page 129 | Golden Skate

Nathan Chen

yyyskate said:
It feels to me that Raf really is the guy to get quick result, e.g. lots of skaters went to him for technique touch-up job. (Mao Asada, Michelle Kwan, Mariah Bell, Ash etc.)

yet watching Yuzuru doing strokes and blade works and figures in OG practice peacefully, really reminds me where figure skating's root is.

all those SS practice, blade to ice relationship practice may even help Nathan land his quad more efficiently, more securely, more beautifully in the long run.

Nathan is really a genius that he is the only one in human history that can do 5 different quads at such a young age of 18, but to fine tune those jumps to incorporate them into a complete program takes time and patience.
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I love Nathan as well, but while watching his free I kept saying to myself, please go to Tracy Wlison's edge class!! It would help so much.

I think Raf is utilitarian which is fine to an extent but like you said sometimes you have to make long-term investments. You can't just shortchange the choreography and intricacy of the programs.
 
1111bm said:
Also lets not forget, that according to Nathan, Raf didn't seek him out after his SP... so he certainly would have no business feeling "not good about this", if he didn't even try to confront his student to talk about their strategy for the FS.
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Did you see what happened at K&C after Nathan's SP?
That was one of the most awkward moments I have ever seen. Raf moved toward Nathan, and Nathan also moved a bit to stay away from Raf. They did that like twice.

Nathan's body language says that he wanted to be left alone. I think Raf got that message, so he offered Nathan space.

But when I heard Nathan said that his mom supported his decision of going for 6 quads, and he only informed Raf the next morning. I immediately think of two skaters: Tiffany Chin and Michelle Kwan.

Tiffany Chin is who got me into skating. Her mom was heavily involved in her skating which seemed to turn a few of her coaches off.
Michelle Kwan's father, at one point, pretty much became her coach (2002 Olympics).

Neither case ends well.

No, that is not a good thing. Nathan's family should be his support system, but not get involved in such decisions.
If I were her mom, I would have told him that I supported his idea but I would urge him to discuss this with Raf.
If his family doesn't trust Raf's judgement, then find another coach. This kind of decision should be made by professionals, with input from the skater.

If I were a coach, and my student told me his mom/dad wanted him to do a certain program, I would say:
go train with your parents, best of luck.
 
I don't think neglecting the PCS side of skating is a conscious decision made by Nathan or Raf... I mean yes, they don't go out of their way to put enough of an emphasis on it, which surely is based on their personal preference or inclination towards jumps, but still...

I really think it just got sacrificed along the way, as a result of certain circumstances...

Once Nathan started showing remarkable success with his quads, and since he wasn't a Jason Brown type of performer and wasn't gonna get high PCS anyway at that stage, they focused on the jumps, and sort of made it their brand...
After his hip injury, the number one priority surely was to get him back on track technically and it was a great vehicle to make a splash in his first senior season, what with all the 5 quads records and the looming olympic season... and that's how he's been marketed ever since, especially going into the olympics as a medal favourite.

But with that came the pressure to deliver...

My impression this whole season was, that Nathan originally genuinely intended to work on his skating and his delivery, but at the same time, he struggled to get back into the same form jumping-wise, that he had last season.

Because everyone now expects him to just knock out this big number of quads and obviously he takes a lot of pride in it too. But sadly, being able to do these many quads is not a baseline that he can just retain from season to season or even throughout a whole season really, which would allow him the freedom and time to advance in other aspects of his skating or maybe work on the quality of those jumps.

So to me it looked like he was barely able to reach his own standard technically, that he had established last season, and as long as that part wasn't secured, he wasn't gonna focus on the PCS part or the quality of his programs.

I would hope that now, that the pressure of the olympic season is over, they can somewhat relax... but I don't think this is going to happen, at least not in the next couple seasons...

I do think the best approach would be to reduce his programs to a baseline of quads that he can comfortably perform, and then work on the quality of elements and PCS, but Nathan sadly seems to value quantity over quality and he appears to have this megalomaniac mindset, so I think he's going to push the quads until he reaches his limits. Until he doesn't get this out of his system, he probably won't change his approach, and that could take a few more seasons I'm afraid. But we'll see...
 
^^ according to a friend who had some casual chat with Nathan's mom in comps.
they discussed Nathan's 3A issue and asked should Nathan seeking some 3A expert for help.
this is Nathan's Mom's answer
"they won't consider it, because any skater's body is different, good technique on one skater may not apply to another, they trust his coach".
it sounds Nathan's Mom trust his coach.
 
I agree 100%.

As a matter of fact, I would hope that he keeps both programs for next season, unless he skates both programs to their full potential at Worlds.

I think Nathan has the best programs of all this season.
for SP, if he does 4F or 4Z // 4T+3T 3A
for LP, if he sticks to the layout at CoR

and keeps delivering relatively clean performances, his PCS would have gradually climbed up to Shoma's level easily.
Trust me, that is the game of figure skating.

On top of that, if he can focus on getting more flow out of his jumps, the GOE on his jumps would go up as well.

No, he does not need 6 quads to have a shot at gold.
5 would be enough.

This would have been the strategy I would suggest to Nathan. No messing around the jump layout, no disasters at SA/GPF. Just build muscle memory and momentum going into the Olympics.
 
cchen24 said:
Did you see what happened at K&C after Nathan's SP?
That was one of the most awkward moments I have ever seen. Raf moved toward Nathan, and Nathan also moved a bit to stay away from Raf. They did that like twice.

Nathan's body language says that he wanted to be left alone. I think Raf got that message, so he offered Nathan space.
Click to expand...

We've discussed this in another thread, this footage was taken out of context and didn't show the whole set up of the Kiss'n'Cry, another poster offered some further information on this:

Amei said:
It was on NBC, when they first walked over to the bench there were lines that looked to me like placement lings, the arena worker directed Nathan, to 1 and he sat with a bit of distance between him and Raf. I don't think it was Nathan trying to get away from Raf and then Raf was forcing himself to be closer - I think Raf was being mindful about media for the K&C for pictures.
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If you look at the Kiss'n'Cry from the front, it's obvious that the organisers would want the skaters and their coach(es) to sit in the middle, right beneath the olympic rings... You can also see that Raf and Nathan look up at someone on their right side several times, and react to that person, probably an arena worker giving them further instructions to scoot over some more.

And even if your interpretation was true, I'd still expect Raf as the coach and authority figure to confront his student.

Also, just because Nathan understandably needed some space right after the program, doesn't mean Raf can't approach him at a later point. Give him a few hours to digest what happened, and then talk to him.
 
cchen24 said:
I agree 100%.

As a matter of fact, I would hope that he keeps both programs for next season, unless he skates both programs to their full potential at Worlds.

I think Nathan has the best programs of all this season.
for SP, if he does 4F or 4Z // 4T+3T 3A
for LP, if he sticks to the layout at CoR

and keeps delivering relatively clean performances, his PCS would have gradually climbed up to Shoma's level easily.
Trust me, that is the game of figure skating.

On top of that, if he can focus on getting more flow out of his jumps, the GOE on his jumps would go up as well.

No, he does not need 6 quads to have a shot at gold.
5 would be enough.

This would have been the strategy I would suggest to Nathan. No messing around the jump layout, no disasters at SA/GPF. Just build muscle memory and momentum going into the Olympics.
Click to expand...

Keeps both programs? He definitely needs a new FS, IMHO. The current FS doesn't look like it's inspiring much expression in him. Something like his exhibition music but with better cuts and a tad more classy would be best.
 
oatmella said:
Nathan’s Mom doesn’t seem to be the overbearing type.
I do think to reach the next level, a coaching change (or additional coaching) is needed. I’m truly curious how Nathan would further develop as a skater if he switched to Brian Orser. And also, would Orser take him on?
And there are also Nathan’s plans for college - I’m not sure how skating would fit in with what I assume would be attending college with a normal class load. Would he have to switch coaches depending on his college plans? So many questions lol.
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yes the college issue, if he goes to harvard. who will coach him.

He cannot do online college like Yuzuru in Canada for pre-med..
 
1111bm said:
And even if your interpretation was true, I'd still expect Raf as the coach and authority figure to confront his student.

Also, just because Nathan understandably needed some space right after the program, doesn't mean Raf can't approach him at a later point. Give him a few hours to digest what happened, and then talk to him.
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I don't know if confronting a student who just did the worst SP at the Olympics is wise.

Yes, Raf could have approached Nathan a few hours later.

My problem is that Nathan would talk to his mom on this decision, but not the coach.

You seem to suggest that it is the coach's responsibility to chase the skater down.

OK, that just shows a lot of things went wrong.
The coach did not do his job right. Neither did the student.
 
I wanna Nathan to do his FS in ex with perfect original choreo yet easier jump

Maybe in SOI. that would be great, cos that is also his historical program in OG, and would be a nice contrast to his "no good" ex, one for act 1, one for act 2.
 
Miss Ice said:
Keeps both programs? He definitely needs a new FS, IMHO. The current FS doesn't look like it's inspiring much expression in him. Something like his exhibition music but with better cuts and a tad more classy would be best.
Click to expand...

Because I see great potential in this LP. He seems to be intrigued by the story as well. He even talked to the dancer on the phone just to learn what went through his mind. That is a surprise to me.

Artistically, the debut of this program is probably the best which shows a ton of promise.
And then it went downhill because of the pursuit of more quads.
The intricacy and choreography gets watered down.
 
yes, I wanna Nathan to have new pairs of programs every year, since we may only have another 4 years of Nathan , perhaps even less if he decided to take a gap year.
I wanna him to explore all genres. and do a super lyrical program (SP or Gala) with sweeping edges, sequins, bling bling.... just to scare everyone.:biggrin:
 
cchen24 said:
Did you see what happened at K&C after Nathan's SP?
That was one of the most awkward moments I have ever seen. Raf moved toward Nathan, and Nathan also moved a bit to stay away from Raf. They did that like twice.

Nathan's body language says that he wanted to be left alone. I think Raf got that message, so he offered Nathan space.

But when I heard Nathan said that his mom supported his decision of going for 6 quads, and he only informed Raf the next morning. I immediately think of two skaters: Tiffany Chin and Michelle Kwan.

Tiffany Chin is who got me into skating. Her mom was heavily involved in her skating which seemed to turn a few of her coaches off.
Michelle Kwan's father, at one point, pretty much became her coach (2002 Olympics).

Neither case ends well.

No, that is not a good thing. Nathan's family should be his support system, but not get involved in such decisions.
If I were her mom, I would have told him that I supported his idea but I would urge him to discuss this with Raf.
If his family doesn't trust Raf's judgement, then find another coach. This kind of decision should be made by professionals, with input from the skater.

If I were a coach, and my student told me his mom/dad wanted him to do a certain program, I would say:
go train with your parents, best of luck.
Click to expand...
Even though I agree with some of your assessment of Nathan's development, I think this is a bit presumptuous. I did watch the interview where Nathan said his mom always tries to motivate him to push himself, but I took it as more of a general statement instead of him saying that it was his mom who specially "told" him to go for 6 quads. The 6th quad really does feel more like an impulsive decision Nathan had made to make peace with himself before he went to bed. Also this whole Nathan's mom being too involved with his skating is also quite presumptuous to me. From what I can gather, his mom is very supportive and usually at competitions with him. But she mostly trusts the publicity stuff to Nathan's agent and I don't get a feeling she armchair coaches.

Miss Ice said:
Some people think that Nathan fans are his fans because he is a quad machine, and don't care for the thing called artistry.

But I think exhibitions like these is the real reason we love Nathan. Not because of the quads!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUCI0Cxtge4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHZT7rjbGiY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5lNR-4Z-_4

I'm happy we'll have at least 4 more years of this <3
Click to expand...
and because of programs like this, delivered with equal authenticity as those programs you posted above.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-XDs7TdIPk&t=6s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NcZT_aVV9c&t=712s

I happen to be one of those fans who truly think he's unmatched in either musicality or range, when he wants to be.
 
shine said:
Even though I agree with some of your assessment of Nathan's development, I think this is a bit presumptuous. I did watch the interview where Nathan said his mom always tries to motivate him to push himself, but I took it as more of a general statement instead of him saying that it was his mom who specially "told" him to go for 6 quads. The 6th quad really does feel more like an impulsive decision Nathan had made to make peace with himself before he went to bed. Also this whole Nathan's mom being too involved with his skating is also quite presumptuous to me. From what I can gather, his mom is very supportive and usually at competitions with him. But she mostly trusts the publicity stuff to Nathan's agent and I don't get a feeling she armchair coaches.
Click to expand...

We pretty much all agree the 6 quad LP was Nathan's decision.

And Raf was notified the morning of the competition. This info is from Nathan.

Also from Nathan: he talked to his mom about the plan, and he said she always supports him to push himself．

My biggest problem/concern is that he did not discuss this with Raf.
He would rather talk to his mom about this than his coach.

OK, I am from Taiwan. My last name is also Chen which is a main reason why I find such connection with Nathan.
I understand too well what family means for Chinese.
But this is dangerous.

I guess I am different. I rarely let my parents get involved in such issues.
For example, I study clarinet with several teachers over the past 20 years.
I always discuss issues related to my clarinet playing with my teacher, never with my parents.

Like I said previously, if I were Nathan's parent, I would have said to him, "I support you 100%, but you need to discuss this with Raf."
 
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