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- Feb 21, 2018
Misshin as in Yagudin/Plushanko's coach?
Nathan Chen
- Thread starter matmuh
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Misshin as in Yagudin/Plushanko's coach?
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- Feb 21, 2018
Misshin? as in Plushenko's coach?
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Misshin? As in Plushenko's coach?
Yes. That's where Raf learned his methods.
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Article: Emory Alum Cheers On ‘Quad King’ Brother
One of the funniest/cutest Nathan Gifs
https://twitter.com/nathanwchen/status/966341110074294272
More from Vera
https://twitter.com/Variety/status/966423556983701504
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
I don't necessarily want Nathan to go to BO, but why do you think their personalities would clash?
I think Chen x Hanyu's personalities would clash and produce tension, not necessarily Chen and Orser. Chen and Orser may clash depending on how much of a tiger mom Chen's mother is.
You rarely see the same coach training two direct competitors for a reason (except for Eteri for ladies, but that isn't playing out so well now that Med and Zag are on equal footing). The Hanyu x Fernandez combination worked a lot because Fernandez is so chill and laid back (he's probably the chillest competitor I've ever seen), which is the perfect fodder for Hanyu's intensely competitive personality. That dynamic will not be reproduced with Chen. Even with such a complimentary pairing as Hanyu x Fernandez, Orser has had a headache balancing both skaters and had to fend off accusations of favoritism. And when you think about it, juggling Spanish x Japanese federation is much easier compared to juggling USA x Japanese Federation.
Are there no other qualified coaches in the US?
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- Feb 21, 2018
No wonder Nathan reminded me of Alexie Yagudin for some reason. This explained it. The interesting thing is Alexie got #5 in his first Olympics, known as a jumper, then left Mishin for Tarasova who turned him into an artist and an OM champion. I hope Nathan can find his Tarasova.
I disagree with that, I'm not a coach, so I don't know much about technique style or how much a big deal it would be, based on my own observation, I think Nathan's lutz, flip jump technique are very very similar to Yuna's, the only significant difference between Nathan and other skaters' is his seat belt arm position, which is not a particular Russian technique thing.
as far as I know, TomZ has 3 different kinds of 4lutz technique and a dozen of 3A technique.
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- Feb 21, 2018
Thank you. See my other post.
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2018
Outside of Orser, are there any other good coach candidates?
@SkatingMusic
not a coach, don't know anything, just a few info i collected, Nathan is tweeking his jumps techniques quite often, he has tried many many 3A techniques, still without a desirable consistency/stability.
His current 3A technique is different from Yuzuru's.
not a coach, don't know anything, just a few info i collected, Nathan is tweeking his jumps techniques quite often, he has tried many many 3A techniques, still without a desirable consistency/stability.
His current 3A technique is different from Yuzuru's.
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2018
Not just for 3A, I meant someone who can grow him into a skater he could be. I lost track of skating for years and don't even know who is around any more
Not just for 3A, I meant someone who can grow him into a skater he could be. I lost track of skating for years and don't even know who is around any more
I personal best choice is really only Brian Orser, there are no other known American coaches are particularly good at the things he lacks and needs to be improved.
Vincent is already based on US OG training center with 3 head coaches.
And apparently, Nathan enjoys working with Canadian choreographers. he can also work with Tom Dickson(American choreographer)
Agreed, I don’t want Nathan to be one of those skaters who switch coaches after disappointing results.
Nathan has made a lot of progress with Raf, I think ppl are just disappointed because they expected more at the Olympics.
I don’t think Orser is a good fit for all skaters. Didn’t Rippon find Raf a better fit than Orser?
I am putting my trust in Nathan’s judgment to know what works for him, the same way he decided to train with Zueva then move back to Raf.
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2018
I found this paragraph in Raf's interview interesting: "Let me tell you a story. I once witnessed how Alexey Yagudin spoke not so nicely to Tatiana Tarasova. When I heard it... Alexandr Abt, who I was coaching at that time would never dare talking to me with the same voice, it was unheard of. I thought if I were in Tarasova's shoes I would walk out. And would never talk to that athlete again. Now I often think Tarasova knew exactly what she was doing. What to react on, how to behave and where to dismiss things. I didn't know at that time.
I now treat it differently. There is a 18.yo athlete who is, after all, just a kid, and there is me- an adult who helps that kid go through his life. And I will be helping him till he passes a point of no return. I can't really tell where that point is, but, guess, I will see and feel it. And will know if he passes it."
Though the context here is that he learned to change his approach now, it still shows that he is not naturally good at "handling" difficult students. A young Yagudin was definitely more wild than Nathan. Tarasova handled him very well. He argued with her but he also cried on her shoulder when he lost competitions. Had Yagudin went to Raf instead, he wouldn't become an OM champion.
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He might be too old:-(
I now treat it differently. There is a 18.yo athlete who is, after all, just a kid, and there is me- an adult who helps that kid go through his life. And I will be helping him till he passes a point of no return. I can't really tell where that point is, but, guess, I will see and feel it. And will know if he passes it."
Though the context here is that he learned to change his approach now, it still shows that he is not naturally good at "handling" difficult students. A young Yagudin was definitely more wild than Nathan. Tarasova handled him very well. He argued with her but he also cried on her shoulder when he lost competitions. Had Yagudin went to Raf instead, he wouldn't become an OM champion.
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He might be too old:-(
NOPE, this year is his last US nationals. (announced)
@lurkz2 it all depends on what specific stuff you need to improve，what kinda talent you are. different skaters, different coaches, different situations.
And yes, Nathan will make his own decision.
Also coaching experience is also gained over the years, Yuna Kim is Brian Orser's first student, but now he has accumulated tons of experience with olympic champions and medalist.
And yes, Nathan will make his own decision.
Also coaching experience is also gained over the years, Yuna Kim is Brian Orser's first student, but now he has accumulated tons of experience with olympic champions and medalist.
Raf’s side of the story doesn’t sit right with me… not saying that it’s factually wrong, there might well be a lot of truth to it, but honestly, his conclusions don’t ring entirely true to me.
There are quite a few assumptions and on the whole it sounds a bit like he came up with these explanations and made himself believe in them, so that he can feel good about himself and doesn’t look bad…? (I know, this is very kitchen sink psychology 101…
)
Especially, since Raf doesn’t take any kind of responsibility for what happened, at any point.
He says he knew Nathan would fail with his planned SP layout because it was too ambitious given the circumstances (injury, amount of training, familiarity with the layout…) and then Nathan supposedly proved him right.
But then why allow Nathan to go for a 6 quad layout in the FS, a mere day later? Which he succeeded at, including those quads, that Raf deemed too difficult a day earlier.
Also notice, in the interview Raf conveniently doesn’t offer an explanation how that was suddenly possible, when just 24 hours earlier he was pointing out a lack of training/preparation etc… those things didn’t change in the course of a day…
(I get that it’s more risky to do certain elements in the SP because of certain requirements and because each mistake weighs more heavily, because there’s fewer elements overall… but still, doesn’t explain why Nathan would be able to execute almost all quads successfully one day later).
Many people were commenting on how anxious Nathan appeared before the SP, and apparently they were right on the money. So if some FS fans were getting these vibes through their TV screen, surely Raf would also pick up on Nathan’s nervous energy and body language, at the very least subconsciously. So naturally he „felt“ that Nathan would fail.
(Obviously the short-term change in layout and then, making it even worse, a desperate change mid-program from 4F to 4T were big mistakes. But as I already mentioned, I see this as a homemade problem that Raf himself is also guilty of. Also, one could argue that the 4Lz3T - 4F - 3A layout is pretty familiar to Nathan, given that he’s done it so many times this season… which I assume is also part of why Nathan must have felt that it’s a realistic, doable layout.)
We don’t know why Nathan felt pressured to go for a risky program, be it the expectations of his family, media or his own, but does it really matter in that moment? The result is the same… I’m still convinced that the main problem during the SP was nerves/pressure, last-minute layout changes are just a symptom of this.
I’m much more interested in how his environment, especially Raf as his coach, being the one person face to face with him in those situations, react to this. At that competitive level, wouldn’t they have strategies or rituals in place to deal with this? Looking in from the outside, it doesn’t look like Raf/his team prepared for this. A familar jump layout is obviously one big building block to establish the needed confidence, but I’m also thinking of care and support on site during competiton. Seems like Raf doesn't recognize this as a problem, even though quads are so much about mental focus and timing...?
There are quite a few assumptions and on the whole it sounds a bit like he came up with these explanations and made himself believe in them, so that he can feel good about himself and doesn’t look bad…? (I know, this is very kitchen sink psychology 101…
)Especially, since Raf doesn’t take any kind of responsibility for what happened, at any point.
He says he knew Nathan would fail with his planned SP layout because it was too ambitious given the circumstances (injury, amount of training, familiarity with the layout…) and then Nathan supposedly proved him right.
But then why allow Nathan to go for a 6 quad layout in the FS, a mere day later? Which he succeeded at, including those quads, that Raf deemed too difficult a day earlier.
Also notice, in the interview Raf conveniently doesn’t offer an explanation how that was suddenly possible, when just 24 hours earlier he was pointing out a lack of training/preparation etc… those things didn’t change in the course of a day…
(I get that it’s more risky to do certain elements in the SP because of certain requirements and because each mistake weighs more heavily, because there’s fewer elements overall… but still, doesn’t explain why Nathan would be able to execute almost all quads successfully one day later).
Many people were commenting on how anxious Nathan appeared before the SP, and apparently they were right on the money. So if some FS fans were getting these vibes through their TV screen, surely Raf would also pick up on Nathan’s nervous energy and body language, at the very least subconsciously. So naturally he „felt“ that Nathan would fail.
(Obviously the short-term change in layout and then, making it even worse, a desperate change mid-program from 4F to 4T were big mistakes. But as I already mentioned, I see this as a homemade problem that Raf himself is also guilty of. Also, one could argue that the 4Lz3T - 4F - 3A layout is pretty familiar to Nathan, given that he’s done it so many times this season… which I assume is also part of why Nathan must have felt that it’s a realistic, doable layout.)
We don’t know why Nathan felt pressured to go for a risky program, be it the expectations of his family, media or his own, but does it really matter in that moment? The result is the same… I’m still convinced that the main problem during the SP was nerves/pressure, last-minute layout changes are just a symptom of this.
I’m much more interested in how his environment, especially Raf as his coach, being the one person face to face with him in those situations, react to this. At that competitive level, wouldn’t they have strategies or rituals in place to deal with this? Looking in from the outside, it doesn’t look like Raf/his team prepared for this. A familar jump layout is obviously one big building block to establish the needed confidence, but I’m also thinking of care and support on site during competiton. Seems like Raf doesn't recognize this as a problem, even though quads are so much about mental focus and timing...?
Also, I seem to recall an interview with Raf, done by TSL a couple years ago, where he talked about parents, that are heavily involved in their children’s skating careers, and how he doesn’t understand why this is frowned upon in the US and that contrary to other (especially american…?) coaches, he recognises the benefits…
(Naturally he seems to only like their influence, as long as they don’t get in the way of his teaching, but you can’t just have the good parts, Raf…)
I think he also mentioned in that context, giving a specific example, that Nathan would not tell his coach when there’s something wrong with his body (e.g. pain…), but he would tell his mom, who then in turn would encourage him to confront Raf about it…
Now, I don’t know if this would be considered common behaviour for a child, who’s a competitive athlete and therefore would have a pretty close relationship with his coach, but my initial reaction when I hear this is „What kind of a communication is this?“.
If one of his students is not comfortable telling his coach about a problem that he has, then maybe there’s something wrong with that relationship and maybe Raf should not rely so much on the parents but try to establish a better rapport with his student, no?
(Naturally he seems to only like their influence, as long as they don’t get in the way of his teaching, but you can’t just have the good parts, Raf…)
I think he also mentioned in that context, giving a specific example, that Nathan would not tell his coach when there’s something wrong with his body (e.g. pain…), but he would tell his mom, who then in turn would encourage him to confront Raf about it…
Now, I don’t know if this would be considered common behaviour for a child, who’s a competitive athlete and therefore would have a pretty close relationship with his coach, but my initial reaction when I hear this is „What kind of a communication is this?“.
If one of his students is not comfortable telling his coach about a problem that he has, then maybe there’s something wrong with that relationship and maybe Raf should not rely so much on the parents but try to establish a better rapport with his student, no?
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