That was the worst SP ever for US women (OG)

[R.D.]

Here's my advice. Expand your horizons. Figure skating has become an international sport where patriotism rears its head for only two weeks every four years. Find an international star that you like (may I recommend Kaori Matsamoto?) and follow that person's career. :yes:

I've enjoyed our interactions on GS over the years and have always valued your insight, even if we didn't always agree. :thumbsup:

Alas, there's more to it than simply nationalities. I also think skating in general has lost some of the luster it once had, unfortunately...also beyond frustrated with judging in many instances...there's only so much I can take before I write it off as predetermined.

You'll still see me at the occasional local/regional skating show with a camera though.

 

[Procrastinator]

Yeah. I believe that Mirai was 5th after the short and moved up to finish 4th. Rachael Flatt was 5th in the Short and finished 7th. I'd be thrilled if even 1 of our ladies comes in 7th.

Gracie was 4th in Sochi and I don't see any of our ladies matching that. I'm sorry to say this as I had hoped that at least Bradie would have been 6th in the short and finished in 6th place. It would have been thrilling to see her in the final flight. Hopefully things will go better at Worlds.

Again, looking at placement/rank is misleading. A 6th place finish here is, in terms of quality, infinitely more impressive than even a 4th in, say, 2006.

 

[labgoat]

The Russians finished 9th and 10th in 2010. Skating is cyclical. Russians are on top now but won't be forever. Will the US ladies come back? It's certainly possible. Gracie Gold had the talent to be at the top. Why isn't it possible that another, equally talented skater (but without the emotional issues) will arise? Didn't we see this in men's skating with Nathan Chen?

After the 1961 plane crash that killed the US team, there arose out of the ashes a talented young skater who never competed at the Nationals before...she won...15 year old Peggy Fleming. My point being, US skating has overcome worse and will again in time.

 

[Mathman]

A 6th place finish here is, in terms of quality, infinitely more impressive than even a 4th in, say, 2006.

To each his own. Here is the 4th place skate at the 2010 Olympics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hsp-7S79IYI

 

[vavavoom]

I don't think the situation is as dramatic as some make it out to be.

As someone stated, figure skating can be cyclical for some countries. As example, the US is now full of great dance teams while it struggled in the past.

The discipline is generally higher among Japanese and Russian young figure skaters. In the US, there seem to be more distractions and one's situation and progress depends on more factors than talent, geographical location, as example.

At the end of the day, the US sent the best team they could send. It's not La Wagner with yet another year of Hip Hip, Chin Chin that would have set the scoreboard on fire.

There are many countries that catch up, South Korea looks more than promising, but then again they are countries that lose ground... Or lost ground and never recovered, think of many European countries. Will France remain competitive in single skating?
We do not know the answer to that, but I'm pretty sure the US will remain competitive.

All in all, the US is 5th in medal standings, some may consider it catastrophic... but when you think of it, it's not that bad. Russia and China struggle more at these Games.

 

[AshWagsFan]

US ladies aren’t exactly learning later, Mirai was doing all of this @13, she just wasn’t mentally prepared for the big leagues. We need to teach difficulty, artistry, and mental stability. Wagner also had triple triples (same as Zagitova lutz loop) when she first started in seniors but had weak consistency and could never put the programs together (which is why she eventually stopped triple triples and relearned them). That’s also why we haven’t seen any big youngsters, because Mirai, Ashley, and other skaters in the HUS peak later. Idk if it’s about the difference in bodily growth, mental maturity, or pressure on the youngsters, but they need to start stepping things up a few levels.

 

[Manitou]

Basically, if any of my kids expressed interest in figure skating, and I live in the US, I would not be able to provide and commit to whatever is necessary to raise a champion.
One of my kids was playing competitive soccer, which is nothing compared to figure skating in terms of costs, and still it completely dominated family dynamics for years. All family resources, time, commitments, vacations, weekends, tons of money, emotions, went to that. And it was very unfair to my other kids. And completely nothing came out of this. Nothing.
I know families that went through the same, or worse, with kids in gymnastics or volleyball.

The system in the US is that the competitive sport is for the middle class or for fanatical crazies. Or both. There is no taxpayer support at all, you are completely on your own. Your money, your time, your life.
Yes, the entire system is great for recreational sports, I have to admit. But if you want to excel even on the state level, not mentioning regional or higher, it's impossible for normal families.

Don't read from my post that all of a sudden I start supporting tax money going into this. Absolutely not. On the other hand, remembering my mother Poland decades ago, where everything was free, free and free, moreover, you were getting real benefits doing competitive sports, it really brings sweet memories.

 

[bekalc]

Was he talking about the LP? The parents were right and the coach was wrong. Nathan's 6 quad program salvaged his Olympic experience.



The whole sports set-up is so different. In the United States, he who pays the piper calls the tune. The skater's parent's are the boss and the coach is the employee. Mme. Tarasova didn't see it that way.

For one thing, Sasha may have had some sort of pre-existeting contract or agreement with the USFSA and the cheesefest's sponsors. Or maybe Sasha just needed the money, which was more than the prize money for the GPF. Cheesefests paid $50,000 for first place in those days, plus whatever the sponsor or the television network paid the participants under the table.

I remember back in the day, Michelle Kwan was paid $900,000 a year by the USFSA (by law, this information is in the public domain). The money came from ABC television and I am pretty sure part of the deal was that she would appear in the three U.S. cheesefests that were broadcast by ABC.

The short program. Rafe had no issue with going for six quads. And why do you pay coach don't listen to them.

There is this thing called muscle memory. Where you practice one routine long enough you go on auto pilot for big event. This is something coach knows and why no top coach or even mid level coach would recommend it. Even if went okay doesn't mean coach isn't right that it's a bad idea.

Yes there is money but Tarasova was thinking of the big competition coming up and the not good results of losing if. Sasha admited later Tarasova was right.

 

[Star Lane]

The article seems a bit unfair calling out the ladies skaters. I’ve read that the US is having a rather disappointing overall Olympics medal wise.

It could be just normal statistical variation. If not, I think Manitou makes a good point. What sports attract the talented young athletes in the US?

A lot seem to pursue traditional college sports and gymnastics (although that is a college sport itself).

Those sports are so much more accessible to the average family. And the kids like to participate in the sports that are popular with their friends.

 

[kimi492]

Simple.. Figure Skating is an elitist sport I don’t care what any of you have to say about that point so don’t @ me
As a poster above me said, not only will a family have to dedicate the time and energy to one child, but it’s extremely expensive - I know my family certainly couldn’t have afforded it especially at the level it takes to medal at the olympics(!). I’ve seen other posters say other countries fund their athletes, and I can’t speak to the accuracy of that, but the U.S certainly doesn’t. If you don’t have a rich family member or relative that can help you out you’re probably **** out of luck - especially kids who may have a talent for it but live in an area that has no competent figure skating scene in the slightest.

 

[Mathman]

Welcome, Star Lane. Thanks for joining us. Post often, post long!

 

[Arriba627]

At the rink near me, unlimited freestyle time is $400 per month. So that's just the start -- that doesn't include any lessons, skates (an acquaintance of mine recently paid $1,200 for skates), competition entry fees, choreography, costumes, skate sharpening, etc. Definitely not a cheap sport.

 

[Mrs. P]

After the 1961 plane crash that killed the US team, there arose out of the ashes a talented young skater who never competed at the Nationals before...she won...15 year old Peggy Fleming. My point being, US skating has overcome worse and will again in time.

I agree. The U.S. Ladies had a crazy good streak. Of course if you compare it to that then yes, we're doing terribly. But the U.S. ladies doesn't compare to the drought of a Chicago Cubs or a the Cleveland Cavs. Both won championships eventually.

The Golden State Warriors was a terrible team not too long ago. Now they're dominant. Roger Federer had low years too. So on and so forth.

 

[topaz emerald]

This has NOTHING to do with the Russians. The US Ladies had the worst showing by any major federation that I have seen in years!! We shouldn't sugar coat this. We have a problem producing high caliber consistent skaters and it's been that way for a while now. Even if Med were to get silver tonight, she's never out of contention at any event. Our ladies are OUT of this event and even a 7 triple "Cracker" of an LP won't get any of them near the podium. It didn't work for Nathan and it won't work here.

Thank goodness for that team medal because other than the Shibs Bronze, that's all we brought home from Korea.

people can complain all they want about the scores the russian ladies receive, but it's not going to change the fact that the U.S. ladies have fallen out of podium contention ever since the days of Sasha Cohen, who I thought was lucky to get a silver in Turin, falling twice in her lp. Mao and Yuna took ladies figure skating to another level with their triple triple combos. The russian ladies took it to another level by adding transitions, tanoes, rippons, and backloading, but I don't think they increased the difficulty of the jumps, esp...the edge quality....they can try quads and 3axels, but as young ladies' bodies develop, the chances of landing those jumps decrease, so in my opinion, it's not worth it for ladies to be practicing those jumps. Whereas in men's skating, their bodies only get stronger as they age, so if they can't do a certain jump at the age of 13, they will be able to do it at the age of 19-25, I'd say.

Anyhow, there are no excuses for the poor showing for the US ladies in the short program, all we want to see is for them to stay on their feet, and they couldn't even do that...Brennan is just pointing out the facts.

And for those who mentioned Alysa Liu, love her so far, but she is one American girl vs. a large pool of talented Japanese/russian/korean babies. She is still so young and who knows how her body will develop over the next few years....My hope is that puberty treats her well and she stays injury free. I read she only skates 2 hours in the morning, 2 hours int he afternoon per day, and gets Sundays off. If she is too stay competitive with the top girls, she needs to know her competition, but how will she know this unless she keeps tabs on them, so this means the US need to send her to more international competitions against the top girls from the other countries...she needs to see her competition early on.

 

[topaz emerald]

That's why I said "of course, if American ladies were to skate clean." Like can you please read the entire sentence......All I'm saying is, PCS for American ladies shouldn't be that far from the Russians, and if they were to skate clean, their scores should be much closer, but it hasn't happened because they cannot skate clean when it matters and are receiving significantly less PCS for their performance (e.g. Karen)

I completely agree with you on teh PC scoring. It really is a joke. It's clearly based on reputation and I feel this is a MAJOR area of concern in the current judging system that needs to be addressed. However, the US ladies have no excuse. Either you stay on your feet or you don't. No time for nerves. Either you produce or stay home.

 

[topaz emerald]

No 3A?

not worth it. Mao landed it half or less than half the time in her entire career, I think. And there's one japanese girl, I forgot her name, she can land it, but I've seen her fall or pop it too. And Mirai clearly fell on it when it mattered the most. I just don't think women are physically able to land the 3axel or quad consistently, especially when the men struggle on them as well.

 

[charlotte14]

I don't know. The US has had girls with jumping talent even recently (Gold, Chen). Difference is in consistency and competitive mettle.
They seem to cave more easily under the pressure of big international competitions.

Medvedeva doesn't have the best quality jumps by any means, but she executes them so consistently competition after competition.

The poster mentioned 3 great jumpers among history and asked what the current girls don’t have.
Midori Ito was a super jumper but to be fair she wasn’t that consistent.
I am just saying consistency doesn’t really go with jumping talent in many cases.
Actually small jumpers or average jumpers tend to be more consistent at this point. Neither Zagitova or Medvedeva jumo big.m

 

[Sjs5572]

people can complain all they want about the scores the russian ladies receive, but it's not going to change the fact that the U.S. ladies have fallen out of podium contention ever since the days of Sasha Cohen, who I thought was lucky to get a silver in Turin, falling twice in her lp. Mao and Yuna took ladies figure skating to another level with their triple triple combos. The russian ladies took it to another level by adding transitions, tanoes, rippons, and backloading, but I don't think they increased the difficulty of the jumps, esp...the edge quality....they can try quads and 3axels, but as young ladies' bodies develop, the chances of landing those jumps decrease, so in my opinion, it's not worth it for ladies to be practicing those jumps. Whereas in men's skating, their bodies only get stronger as they age, so if they can't do a certain jump at the age of 13, they will be able to do it at the age of 19-25, I'd say.

Anyhow, there are no excuses for the poor showing for the US ladies in the short program, all we want to see is for them to stay on their feet, and they couldn't even do that...Brennan is just pointing out the facts.

And for those who mentioned Alysa Liu, love her so far, but she is one American girl vs. a large pool of talented Japanese/russian/korean babies. She is still so young and who knows how her body will develop over the next few years....My hope is that puberty treats her well and she stays injury free. I read she only skates 2 hours in the morning, 2 hours int he afternoon per day, and gets Sundays off. If she is too stay competitive with the top girls, she needs to know her competition, but how will she know this unless she keeps tabs on them, so this means the US need to send her to more international competitions against the top girls from the other countries...she needs to see her competition early on.

I am very excited by Alysa. In fact, after seeing her 2017 regionals performances on youtube, I started a sponsorship account for her with the New England Figure Skating Association. I also had the opportunity to meet Alysa and her father, Arthur, in San Jose. Alysa is a delightful, unassuming preteen, and Arthur seems like a loving, non-pushy dad.
Injuries and puberty are always a concern, but she has excellent technique which will hopefully keep her healthy and strongly competitive for years to come. FYI, she is working on her triple axel.

 

[klutzy]

No 3A?

An article on Liu says she and her coach are studying a Japanese skater with a triple axel combo. I kind of remember something about her father saying that she'd been working the 3A, but it took much time to train in terms of potential points benefit.

 

[bobbob]

not worth it. Mao landed it half or less than half the time in her entire career, I think. And there's one japanese girl, I forgot her name, she can land it, but I've seen her fall or pop it too. And Mirai clearly fell on it when it mattered the most. I just don't think women are physically able to land the 3axel or quad consistently, especially when the men struggle on them as well.

Rika K has been pretty consistent on her 3A, she was 3/3 at Japanese Nationals. Not perfect, but greater than 50%