Over-Booting - How bad is it really?

[stevenlee]

Okay! So...I found out I'm going to need new skates a lot sooner than I thought, because I've already self-taught myself everything in Basic 1 and class hasn't even started.

I am going to a Pro Shop tomorrow, because I found out there's actually a large amount of them within reasonable distance from me. Who knew? Not me.

Anyway!
I've been looking around and I found a really nice "comparison" post on a website that shows like what boots are good for what levels, etc.

Link to said post: http://www.iceskatesnblades.com/compare-skate-brands.html

I don't really have a lot of money right now to have to keep buying new skates, and paying for classes. I know that you can "over-boot" but like...How bad is it, really? Or is it more of just like a practicality thing?


For reference...I didn't do my research and I bought a pair of recreational figure skates, because I was looking at price and I'm also just kind of recklessly spontaneous and dumb sometimes.

I'm consistently drawn to Jackson skates. For some reason they're just aesthetically pleasing to me or something like that...

I'm a really quick learner and I'm going to the rink and practicing as much as I can.

I'm torn between getting the Jackson JS1992 Marquis and the Jackson JS1592 Mystique.

The Marquis are listed for:

USFSA Basic 5-8
ISI Beta, Gamma, Delta, Freestyle Test 1,2
Skate Canada Canskate Stages 4,5

The Mystique are listed for:

USFSABasic 1-5
ISIPre-alpha, Alpha
Skate Canada Canskate Stages 1-3


TL;DR

I'm Basic 1 but learning fast, would it be a dumb idea to just go ahead and get some higher level skates, or is that just a no-no?


Annnnnd discuss?

 

[Mussique]

Well, probably in the pro shop they'll tell you all of this and more, but: things to also take into account: how old are you, and how much you weight?

Assuming you're an adult (mostly because of where you've posted before, but I could be wrong, so sorry beforehand!)
That post you linked is useful for comparison, but usually when looking for boots you just look for the stiffness ratio, which is going to support your ankles for jumps.

Adult beginners can usually "overboot" more than kids since our foot doesn't grow that much anymore and even if they have a longer breaking in period they also have a longer breaking down period. That being said, it's the skater who skates, not the boot. If you get a boot rated for triples the boot isn't going to be jumping on its own (and will probably be quite painful). Also boots rated higher are more expensive, and going from a stiffer boot to a lesser stiff one it's said to feel kind of awful, like you don't have enough support.

I'd advice for a boot up to axel. Can't really go wrong with that one: you can usually use those for the start of double jumps, and so you're assuring at least one year or maybe more without changing boots.
If you already have recreational skates (hey, I did the same thing!) then definitely don't go for more soft boots. Learn the moves in the field you like with the ones you have, maybe the waltz jump as a step (...I wouldn't advise jumping even tiny jumps on those), and then go for boots at least rated for singles.

So I wouldn't get the Mystique (they won't offer enough support).
I don't know about the Marquis, but they may work. Jackson Premier would also work as well, I think. (That being said, I don't use Jackson, so I may be wrong)

Anyway, overbooting for an adult would be getting a boot for doubles/more, so don't worry. It's more about your comfort and to make them last longer. And if you go to a pro shop they'll go over everything with you

Happy skating!

 

[jf12]

A lot of the boot manufacturers skill levels are designed for kids, who move quickly through boots by growing out of them. I recommend normal size adult starters who are total beginners like yourseld to begin with a boot rated for single jumps such as Jackson Freestyle.

I hope when you go to the pro shop that you try on all brands that you can. I would call ahead if you are a man because they don’t often have a lot of men’s boots in stock. It also doesn’t matter what they look like! I’m wearing a boot that I think is actually really ugly but love the way they feel.

 

[karne]

for an Adult skater, a higher level boot is usually okay anyway. We're heavier and taller and often need more support than our "level" indicates. (I wear boots designed for doubles, but haven't even started Axel work.) So the Marquis may be okay.

Okay! So...I found out I'm going to need new skates a lot sooner than I thought, because I've already self-taught myself everything in Basic 1 and class hasn't even started.

Do not self-teach. Figure skating is not a self-teachable sport. I can guarantee that if you continue to self-teach, you will be self-teaching wrong, and then you'll have to waste more money and time getting a coach to fix it.

 

[stevenlee]

Well, probably in the pro shop they'll tell you all of this and more, but: things to also take into account: how old are you, and how much you weight?

Assuming you're an adult (mostly because of where you've posted before, but I could be wrong, so sorry beforehand!)
That post you linked is useful for comparison, but usually when looking for boots you just look for the stiffness ratio, which is going to support your ankles for jumps.

Adult beginners can usually "overboot" more than kids since our foot doesn't grow that much anymore and even if they have a longer breaking in period they also have a longer breaking down period. That being said, it's the skater who skates, not the boot. If you get a boot rated for triples the boot isn't going to be jumping on its own (and will probably be quite painful). Also boots rated higher are more expensive, and going from a stiffer boot to a lesser stiff one it's said to feel kind of awful, like you don't have enough support.

I'd advice for a boot up to axel. Can't really go wrong with that one: you can usually use those for the start of double jumps, and so you're assuring at least one year or maybe more without changing boots.
If you already have recreational skates (hey, I did the same thing!) then definitely don't go for more soft boots. Learn the moves in the field you like with the ones you have, maybe the waltz jump as a step (...I wouldn't advise jumping even tiny jumps on those), and then go for boots at least rated for singles.

So I wouldn't get the Mystique (they won't offer enough support).
I don't know about the Marquis, but they may work. Jackson Premier would also work as well, I think. (That being said, I don't use Jackson, so I may be wrong)

Anyway, overbooting for an adult would be getting a boot for doubles/more, so don't worry. It's more about your comfort and to make them last longer. And if you go to a pro shop they'll go over everything with you

Happy skating!

Thanks so much! That was super informative. I am an adult, and sort of short but pretty heavy due to muscle mass, and build muscle easily. So I will definitely take those things into account. I also have ankles a bit on the weak side so more support would be best.
The ones I have have a good bit of support, but they're pretty uncomfortable in the ankles, like no padding whatsoever.

A lot of the boot manufacturers skill levels are designed for kids, who move quickly through boots by growing out of them. I recommend normal size adult starters who are total beginners like yourseld to begin with a boot rated for single jumps such as Jackson Freestyle.

I hope when you go to the pro shop that you try on all brands that you can. I would call ahead if you are a man because they don’t often have a lot of men’s boots in stock. It also doesn’t matter what they look like! I’m wearing a boot that I think is actually really ugly but love the way they feel.

I'll definitely try other's on. I have a wider foot so that kind of puts certain brands out of the picture - like I've heard Harlick tend to run narrow. I'm definitely excited to try something on in a half size for sure. My current ones fit okay, but I think a half size more would be be a much better fit.

for an Adult skater, a higher level boot is usually okay anyway. We're heavier and taller and often need more support than our "level" indicates. (I wear boots designed for doubles, but haven't even started Axel work.) So the Marquis may be okay.



Do not self-teach. Figure skating is not a self-teachable sport. I can guarantee that if you continue to self-teach, you will be self-teaching wrong, and then you'll have to waste more money and time getting a coach to fix it.

I say self-taught loosely. I watch a lot of online videos - and I know that for someone experienced, that probably sounds just as bad, but I watch them over and over and over again before even attempting and am very conscious of how I'm doing things.

I've only taught myself how to glide and do swizzles at this point. Everything else needed to pass basics 1 is just balance and what not.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Thanks so much! That was super informative. I am an adult, and sort of short but pretty heavy due to muscle mass, and build muscle easily. So I will definitely take those things into account. I also have ankles a bit on the weak side so more support would be best.
The ones I have have a good bit of support, but they're pretty uncomfortable in the ankles, like no padding whatsoever.




I'll definitely try other's on. I have a wider foot so that kind of puts certain brands out of the picture - like I've heard Harlick tend to run narrow. I'm definitely excited to try something on in a half size for sure. My current ones fit okay, but I think a half size more would be be a much better fit.



I say self-taught loosely. I watch a lot of online videos - and I know that for someone experienced, that probably sounds just as bad, but I watch them over and over and over again before even attempting and am very conscious of how I'm doing things.

I've only taught myself how to glide and do swizzles at this point. Everything else needed to pass basics 1 is just balance and what not.

1-if you overboot to a certain point it is bad. You can injure yourself long term and have a lagging foot or ankle injury from it.
2-Do not self-teach yourself, even in the way that you are. GET A COACH!
3-Don't go to a hockey pro shop in a rink and trust them with your booting. Find an actual figure skating professional boot fitter that all they do is figure skating and then have them properly measure your foot, make tracings and do everything they need to in order to properly fit you in boots and blades or a set (if that fits your needs according to them).

 

[Girlbird]

1-if you overboot to a certain point it is bad. You can injure yourself long term and have a lagging foot or ankle injury from it.
2-Do not self-teach yourself, even in the way that you are. GET A COACH!
3-Don't go to a hockey pro shop in a rink and trust them with your booting. Find an actual figure skating professional boot fitter that all they do is figure skating and then have them properly measure your foot, make tracings and do everything they need to in order to properly fit you in boots and blades or a set (if that fits your needs according to them).

Is it REALLY possible to learn swizzles wrong? I'm curious. Youtube explanations are pretty straightforward and say the exact same thing a coach would say.

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1-if you overboot to a certain point it is bad. You can injure yourself long term and have a lagging foot or ankle injury from it.
2-Do not self-teach yourself, even in the way that you are. GET A COACH!
3-Don't go to a hockey pro shop in a rink and trust them with your booting. Find an actual figure skating professional boot fitter that all they do is figure skating and then have them properly measure your foot, make tracings and do everything they need to in order to properly fit you in boots and blades or a set (if that fits your needs according to them).

Is it REALLY possible to learn swizzles wrong? I'm curious. Youtube explanations for these super basic things are pretty straightforward and say the exact same thing a coach would say.

 

[AndreaRu]

Is it REALLY possible to learn swizzles wrong? I'm curious. Youtube explanations are pretty straightforward and say the exact same thing a coach would say.

- - - Updated - - -



Is it REALLY possible to learn swizzles wrong? I'm curious. Youtube explanations for these super basic things are pretty straightforward and say the exact same thing a coach would say.

I honestly don't think you can screw up basic skills that much. In most cases, you're getting so little attention during LTS lessons that it's really no better than watching YouTube videos or studying the elements on your own. In a lot of cases, the coaches are also pretty inexperienced (a lot of them are just teenage skaters with skating skills but not a lot of coaching skill). I think it's entirely possible to get through swizzles, wiggles, one foot glides, stroking, etc, without a private coach or that 30 minutes (divided by 10 students) once a week with a LTS class.

 

[jf12]

I honestly don't think you can screw up basic skills that much. In most cases, you're getting so little attention during LTS lessons that it's really no better than watching YouTube videos or studying the elements on your own. In a lot of cases, the coaches are also pretty inexperienced (a lot of them are just teenage skaters with skating skills but not a lot of coaching skill). I think it's entirely possible to get through swizzles, wiggles, one foot glides, stroking, etc, without a private coach or that 30 minutes (divided by 10 students) once a week with a LTS class.

Watching YouTube videos can be a great supplement, but unless they have great proprioception, most beginners won’t be able to match that to their body. They need a 3rd party, even if it’s just a big class supervised practice to give feedback real-time, way more than advanced skaters do. It is very easy to screw up basic forward stroking.

 

[Mussique]

Well, you sure can learn the motions on your own, but your posture won't be as good. And that really opens a can of worms for future moves...

Like, I see people trying to go backwards all the time around the rink and, wow, yes, there are many ways to not do a swizzle. Don't get me started on crossovers
I do believe you can teach yourself those kind of moves without expensive help —as in, many non-professional skaters will help you if you ask them, and they're not difficult to master. But yes, get a coach asap —and bend your knees The problem isn't learning swizzles backwards, it's learning swizzles backwards with the proper technique that will help you when you're learning more advanced moves.
Also, proper stroking can be hard
Good luck!

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Is it REALLY possible to learn swizzles wrong? I'm curious. Youtube explanations are pretty straightforward and say the exact same thing a coach would say.

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Is it REALLY possible to learn swizzles wrong? I'm curious. Youtube explanations for these super basic things are pretty straightforward and say the exact same thing a coach would say.

Yes.
Everyone else who beat me here to answer have summed it up, especially Mussique. If you do things the wrong way from the start and trying to teach yourself and don't properly learn to engage your core and the tiniest details, then you are only going to have to fix that down the line and it's alot harder to at that point.

 

[stevenlee]

There are pro shops that specialize in figure, so that's where I was planning to go.

I do understand where everyone is coming from about leaning wrong though, that's how lots of things work. (Like how I don't use proper keyboard hand placement with typing. I just didn't practice it properly and now I can't type "proper" to save my life, but I can type pretty fast and get my job done in the end...obviously that's a different scenario but same concept, as far as learning things wrong and not being able to undo it.)

I'm not trying to be difficult or stubborn, but I have only practicing basic things and have only been doing so after watching informative instructions several times before trying. I wouldn't be trying jumps or anything like that without coaching.

I've always been a quick learner, and learn best from studying, watching and doing. Things tend to go over my head when they're explained extremely technically.

Unfortunately the places around here won't let you sign on with a coach unless you're at Basic 4 level and in a group class there's not too much one-on-one attention. Plus they also expect you to practice it on your own in between classes, I didn't think jumping the gun would be that terrible.

As for the posture, it's almost the same as American Tribal Style belly dance, which I took as a teen, so it's a pretty natural posture for me. Core engaged, knees bent and weight forward.

I really appreciate all the feedback though, and will be careful on the booting and the basic skills, so thank you everyone!! This has been really helpful!

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

There are pro shops that specialize in figure, so that's where I was planning to go.

I do understand where everyone is coming from about leaning wrong though, that's how lots of things work. (Like how I don't use proper keyboard hand placement with typing. I just didn't practice it properly and now I can't type "proper" to save my life, but I can type pretty fast and get my job done in the end...obviously that's a different scenario but same concept, as far as learning things wrong and not being able to undo it.)

I'm not trying to be difficult or stubborn, but I have only practicing basic things and have only been doing so after watching informative instructions several times before trying. I wouldn't be trying jumps or anything like that without coaching.

I've always been a quick learner, and learn best from studying, watching and doing. Things tend to go over my head when they're explained extremely technically.

Unfortunately the places around here won't let you sign on with a coach unless you're at Basic 4 level and in a group class there's not too much one-on-one attention. Plus they also expect you to practice it on your own in between classes, I didn't think jumping the gun would be that terrible.

As for the posture, it's almost the same as American Tribal Style belly dance, which I took as a teen, so it's a pretty natural posture for me. Core engaged, knees bent and weight forward.

I really appreciate all the feedback though, and will be careful on the booting and the basic skills, so thank you everyone!! This has been really helpful!

As a former elite skater (yes the type you see at Worlds and Olympics) and now professional, I'm telling you what you need to help you, but you are refusing to understand the true importance of things that us in the sport know, and you cannot assess from your viewpoint and skill level right now.

Many pro shops claim to specialize in figure skates but really don't know what they are talking about, so that is why I advised you the way I did.

Next point of discussion will be that you know how to figure skate "stance" for lack of a better term because of belly dancing, no, sorry but just no. It doesn't always require you to have your weight in same place, you are sorely mistaken.

Lastly, take the group classes if that is all they offer up to level 4 basic. That is better than attempting to teach yourself the way that you are, and they will demonstrate for you in the way you need.

If you want to come and ask the advice of those of us who know what they are talking about and are willing to help you, then please stop fighting it. If you cannot do that then maybe figure skating isn't for you?!

 

[narcissa]

What is wrong with getting stiff boots? If they don't hurt.

 

[treblemakerem]

I'm always surprised at how adamant people are about not self-teaching. I started skating kind of on the sly with terrible cheap skates. I would have loved to sign up for lessons, get good skates, and take private lessons but that was not possible for me for a lot of reasons. I was living in the Boston area at the time so I skated at all the rinks that were free in the winter whenever I could. I focused on learning basic skills. When I finally started taking group lessons (with better skates) I passed everything up to basic level 5. And then after one 6 week session of lessons (30 minutes a week) I am now working on pre-free skate. I watched a lot of youtube videos and worked on basics. I didn't try to skip ahead and do jumps. I did learn to spin and now I have well-centered spins. I am pretty sure I'm doing the stuff right now as my group lesson only has 2 people and so we get lots of one-on-one with the coach.

Obviously, I would have learned a whole lot faster with lessons and better skates, but I don't think the self teaching hurt me in any way. I would always recommend people to take lessons and find a coach, etc, but I don't necessarily think trying to teach yourself basic skills is bad. I think it depends on the person. I am pretty good at details and am used to copying exactly from being an Irish dancer (like I have a medal from worlds, not like I danced as a hobby, part of why I didn't tell people I was skating lol) There are probably some similar muscles in skating and dance so that might have helped me along.

So obviously there's tons of stuff I'm not doing perfectly, but I'm certainly doing it better than I would be if I hadn't tried to learn it at all and just started taking lessons a couple months ago from the beginning. I've had coaches and others ask me if I skated as a kid or if I was taking private lessons, so I must be doing all right. So I would say yes, always get a coach and take lessons if you can. But I feel like it's pretty discouraging to tell someone not to try to learn a swizzle on their own. Most of us aren't trying to become elite skaters after all. When I first started, I mostly just wanted to be able to skate around without falling down and be able to do crossovers on the corners, then I realized I really liked it. Maybe for some people, self teaching will cause troubles, but for me I'm glad I did because I love skating and it was fun for me to have something where I wasn't under so much pressure to be perfect. I could just skate. And now the ice is my favorite place to be. I am always smiling.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I'm always surprised at how adamant people are about not self-teaching. I started skating kind of on the sly with terrible cheap skates. I would have loved to sign up for lessons, get good skates, and take private lessons but that was not possible for me for a lot of reasons. I was living in the Boston area at the time so I skated at all the rinks that were free in the winter whenever I could. I focused on learning basic skills. When I finally started taking group lessons (with better skates) I passed everything up to basic level 5. And then after one 6 week session of lessons (30 minutes a week) I am now working on pre-free skate. I watched a lot of youtube videos and worked on basics. I didn't try to skip ahead and do jumps. I did learn to spin and now I have well-centered spins. I am pretty sure I'm doing the stuff right now as my group lesson only has 2 people and so we get lots of one-on-one with the coach.

Obviously, I would have learned a whole lot faster with lessons and better skates, but I don't think the self teaching hurt me in any way. I would always recommend people to take lessons and find a coach, etc, but I don't necessarily think trying to teach yourself basic skills is bad. I think it depends on the person. I am pretty good at details and am used to copying exactly from being an Irish dancer (like I have a medal from worlds, not like I danced as a hobby, part of why I didn't tell people I was skating lol) There are probably some similar muscles in skating and dance so that might have helped me along.

So obviously there's tons of stuff I'm not doing perfectly, but I'm certainly doing it better than I would be if I hadn't tried to learn it at all and just started taking lessons a couple months ago from the beginning. I've had coaches and others ask me if I skated as a kid or if I was taking private lessons, so I must be doing all right. So I would say yes, always get a coach and take lessons if you can. But I feel like it's pretty discouraging to tell someone not to try to learn a swizzle on their own. Most of us aren't trying to become elite skaters after all. When I first started, I mostly just wanted to be able to skate around without falling down and be able to do crossovers on the corners, then I realized I really liked it. Maybe for some people, self teaching will cause troubles, but for me I'm glad I did because I love skating and it was fun for me to have something where I wasn't under so much pressure to be perfect. I could just skate. And now the ice is my favorite place to be. I am always smiling.

Then you're lucky, or the quality of coaches don't know any better to be fixing things and asking you what they have. No one here said OP was wanting to be an Olympian or elite skater (I said that I was in order to help him so he knew he was getting the right direction here), although there are many questions a week by people wanting to be elite skaters here and asking if they can start at some crazy older age and be what they see on tv. This is why we approach things the way we do here.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

What is wrong with getting stiff boots? If they don't hurt.

Stiff boots do hurt and if you are too overbooted in them for skill level/etc then they will screw up your feet/ankles etc. I mentioned this already in the thread.

 

[Seren]

I learned how to do forward three turns as a kid with crappy technique. As an adult my backward threes and brackets are better quality turns than my stupid forward 3's and I have done much work in correcting them. I also learned poor technique on the toe loop- I have a big, floaty lutz on a clean outside edge that I learned as an adult but my toe loop is trash. The amount of hours spent unlearning something poorly learned is frustrating. That is where I am coming from when I say be careful of self teaching- you will save yourself a lot of time, frustration, and $$$.

Adults can generally wear a stiffer boot for their level than kids but within reason. I would suggest doing a google search of skate techs/shops in your area. I live in PDX but drove 3 hours to Seattle to buy my most recent skates because of th tech here. If I'm going to drop that kind of cash I want to feel confident that what I'm buying is the right choice for my foot and skill level. When I bought my previous pair of skates I bought Reidells because that was what I had had as a kid and that was what the shop sold. I had foot pain for 2 years, my new skates are a different brand and my wonky bunion feet haven't changed but I have no pain.

Please don't be discouraged or put off by our advice, it is meant to be helpful and informative. I hope you have good luck with finding good skates.

 

[narcissa]

Stiff boots do hurt and if you are too overbooted in them for skill level/etc then they will screw up your feet/ankles etc. I mentioned this already in the thread.

Okay...well just wondering because mine don't hurt. They are rated for doubles and triples but I only do singles. So I'm not sure what is bad about them.

 

[treesprite]

Okay...well just wondering because mine don't hurt. They are rated for doubles and triples but I only do singles. So I'm not sure what is bad about them.

Ratings and suggested level uses are general guidelines. Not everyone is going to be the same, especially adults.