2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

[topaz emerald]

Maybe it's more popular over there because their skaters have better manners?

What are you trying to say about American skaters in general? What's wrong with speaking your mind in front of a mic? I don't know what the heck Mirai nagasu said, but in America , there's something called free speech and she can say whatever she wants, including Ashley. I don't care for their skating, but nothing wrong with their manners for the media is brutal.

Americans watch figure skating only during the Olympics. It's just not a popular sport here when we have football, baseball, basketball.

My husband who doesn't watch figure skating at all actually watched it with me during the ladies free skate online streaming. I asked him all of the top three girls that were on the podium which girl did he think should have won Gold and he replied . yevgeniya should have won Gold. When I asked him why he replied because she's the prettiest, lol. Then he said the Canadian girl Osmond should have won second place, and Alina third. My husband thinks That the reason why Alina got the gold is because she showed more skin below the waist..... I laughed at him but I think there is truth to it.

Also when I was at work yesterday, my coworker came and asked me if I watch the figure skating last night, and I replied I did. When I asked her who she thinks should have one she replied evgenia. When I asked her why, she said because evegenia looked like a doll. I think looks has a lot to do with t the ratings and how much Americans watch figure skating. I think it's just a cultural thing.... And I don't know if it's the same thing in Russia or Japan or Korea or any other country. America is still waiting for the girl that has the it Factor..... Until then I think you are going to see American figure skating continue a downward course.

 

[Erin9]

If these are misunderstandings because the American culture is completely different, then why would other Americans also be criticising their remarks?

Yes, as an American, I cringed too.

Karen Chen complained about not having her mom 24/7. She’s 18. A lot of Americans (myself included) go off to college and don’t see their parents for months. I know someone is going to say this is a big competition and not the same thing, but my opinion stands. That level of dependency is not good imo.

Same for Mirai Nagasu and her litany of complaints. One of which is that she couldn’t go home during the 2 weeks like she had at the last Olympics she competed in. Good grief. She’s 24.

I read an article noting that, among other reasons, the state of US ladies figure skating wouldn’t change unless they developed some resilience and mental fortitude, and ICAM.

 

[Blades of Passion]

The criticism Bradie's gotten for daring to be better technically than better-known skaters tells you all you need to know, in some ways, as to why the U.S. isn't developing new talent the way it should. Makes me think of the outrage about Polina Edmunds daring to place second at Nationals and go to the Sochi Olympics.

There was no outrage about Polina, she had beautiful qualities and people were happy to have her there. Bradie isn't "daring to be better technically" (and that's hardly why she has been criticized), there isn't that much quality in her jumps. She was just consistent on them, for a few competitions.

She doesn't have a UR problem

Her 2A+3T has been cheated all season long and the 3Lutz+3Toe is borderline at best, should have been called at times.

 

[ssminnow]

The mom’s in America just intervene constantly because they think they know best. But in America the coaches are so reliant on the financial support that it’s hard to pass on an overbearing mom. Also, because American Moms so often believe they know best and their child is perfect, if it’s not going good and they are having problems - it’s time for a coach hop. Good luck trying to go through the hard-work of fixing a kids technique because you can tell there are gonna be issues as they age. Sometimes that’s just something you have to do with a young kid. Those are hard months without a lot or any improvements before it pays off. A lot of parents resist that because they don’t see the issue *now* and, again, assume expertise superior to the coach.

The real cultural difference isn't so much the overbearing-ness of the American mom, rather it's how disrespected the teaching role is in America. In East Asia, for instance, parents are so much more overbearing and manage their kids within an inch of their lives, but teachers are revered and it is not socially acceptable for a parent to interfere with their domain.

 

[mrrice]

The real cultural difference isn't so much the overbearing-ness of the American mom, rather it's how disrespected the teaching role is in America. In East Asia, for instance, parents are so much more overbearing and manage their kids within an inch of their lives, but teachers are revered and it is not socially acceptable for a parent to interfere with their domain.

This is true and it's actually quite sad. My first and favorite ballet teacher was Russian and she was very strict. Parents were not allowed in class until we had recitals. I see that Dance Mom show and I can't believe the way those parents behave. There's no amount of money that could get me to teach a rude, or disrespectful child. If a parent want's to discuss things, they made appointments. I remember a mom storming into class one day and our teacher told her to take her daughter and leave.

Teaching is difficult enough without having to play baby sitter for rude parents or disrespectful kids. Once you get to the elite level you need understand that time is money and if that's not for you, go somewhere else.

 

[NaVi]

Americans watch figure skating only during the Olympics. It's just not a popular sport here when we have football, baseball, basketball.

Figure skating is not a really a popular sport in either Canada or Russia either... for instance curling is (I think) more popular then figure skating in Canada and biathlon is about 10x more popular than figure skating in Russia. I remember looking at the grand prix tv ratings for Canada and Russia and I guess the sport is about twice as popular per capita in those countries as the US but they also have a lot less people.

 

[Cindy1983]

I have. She's not an actress, but she's fast and smooth on the ice (that comment that she was slow is just dead wrong--she was the fastest skater at Nationals) and her jumps just kind of twinkle (lower than Mirai's, but faster spins.) Her PCS scores are higher than some people expect because her choreography has some complex entries into jumps.

She is 20, but given how little international senior competitions she's had, she's a young skater and should be seen accordingly. She needs some polish and experience, but she's the real deal. And she was clean at the Team Short. She was the least experienced of the three Americans and she ended up in the highest position despite having to go first in the short.


More general rant--Schizoanalyst brings up some good points about helicopter moms--as a mother (kid does not skate), I'll add that it's generational-- you're really expected to managed your kid's extracurriculars and packaging for elite colleges. As someone who doesn't have natural helicopter tendencies, it's a damned nuisance. It's largely the result of how expensive college has become and how competitive it's become. That attitude certainly spills over into skating--which is both expensive and time consuming. Yes, a parent is going to monitor that kind of, well, investment. Anyway, it wasn't always like this. Skating was never cheap, but working-class families like Nancy Kerrigan's could find ways of making it work (Kerrigan's dad got a second job.) Often skaters weren't from affluent backgrounds (Tonya Harding, of course, but also Nicole Bobek for instance.) And that access matters because often your most driven kids are the ones who are striving for something. And if it didn't work out, there were decent jobs out there and affordable colleges.

That said, it's worth noting that these factors aren't having the same effect on Men's (where we have competitive skaters) or ice dancing (where we've got serious depth.). I think the issues with Ladies are many--I think a big one is that our coaching has been stuck in the past because we were so dominant in the past. That happens--you see it in other countries as well. Used to be Russia was dominant in everything, *but* Ladies and now it's the only discipline where it's dominant. And it's not because the Russians have superlative technique; it's because a couple of coaches have figured out to develop skaters for the current scoring system, while American coaches and, frankly, skating fans still prefer 6.0 skating with the lack of errors. Americans love Jason Brown, but he's not top-tier internationally.

How do you isolate the the piece of the quote you wish to address?

If you know how to exploit the system, you place well. The downside is injuries. The segment on the physics of the triple axel was interesting, but I'm sure that it generates a hard fall. I compare it to the lack of checking in women's hockey. They don't check because female bodies can't handle being body slammed into the boards. Marai took a hard fall, and I wouldn't be surprised if she was injured and didn't know it or was not saying it. I understand her logic of skating injured. She FOUGHT to get back to the Olympics and was not going to let it pass her by come hell or high water. Getting back to the Russian ladies, first, there's a reason they're all sooo young. The body can just simply bounce back from injury and hard falls faster at 14 than it can at 24 or 34. Now I ask you to ponder 2 questions. If the reports of what Russian juniors are doing are accurate, what is it doing to young bodies? It's spectacular now, but is it sustainable long term. The US was dominant for FIFTY YEARS. Why? And is the Russian system sacrificing long term benefits for short term gains? Reasons OTHER THAN lack of a state sponsored program can cause a program to implode. My point is that a program had to be sustainable, and I'm not sure that it is. I also wonder if the program is run ethically or if corners are cut in the ethics department. We won't know unless a coach leaves and writes a tell all.

This isn't relevant to the quote, but I don't feel like doing a separate post. Bradie being a transitional figure is not a knock on her. I mean that she's transitional in the sense that she knows how to exploit the system which rewards hard tricks and consistency (as opposed to genuine artistry). The rotation and edge credits drive me, as a casual viewer, because they can't be seen with the naked eye and as a result, there is no proof they are being taken consistently across skaters. Anyway, this could be the beginning of the US adapting to the system. (Note: She also knows how to compete and work through mistakes which will inevitably happen.) The 2 big issues with the US ladies were slow adaption and adoption of the system and skater confidence in thier ability to compete with the best. Te latter is what I see in Starr Andrews. Girl has some serious swag.

 

[kalee]

Americans seem too quick to look for next new thing in skating and then abandon all hope when that skater turns out to be human. It's deeply unhelpful.

+1 :agree: There were a lot of deeply unrealistic expectations of the American ladies in the leadup to the Olympics, and even if all 3 had the skates of their lives, it's still highly unlikely that any of them would have medalled in this field. Top 10-12 in the individual and a team bronze, which is what they got, is in line with their relative performance to the rest of the field on a long-standing basis:
- Zhenia and Alina are in a class of their own and comparable to none but each other.
- Satoko, Kaetlyn, and Carolina were the main contenders for the bronze and have been scoring medals at past ISU Championships for 2+ seasons already.
- Kaori has been convincingly ahead of Bradie head-to-head at the 2017 JW and 2017 Skate America, so for Bradie to overtake her at Olympics would have been an upset.
- Masha has qualified for two consecutive GPF's and was also the 2016 JW silver medalist. So again, it would be an upset for any of the US ladies to beat her.

So, the only skater who was unexpected in finishing ahead of the 3 US ladies is Choi Da Bin, who had the skate of her life on home ice. But then, Gabby Daleman and Elizabet Tursynbaeva both had the potential to be ahead of the US ladies also and faltered. IMO, placement wise, they finished where they could have finished all along. If there's disappointment, it's that they all left points on the table and could better their scores.
Well. The next step is Worlds where they will be facing the same field. Hope that this experience will have proven valuable for Bradie to build the nerve she needs to pull off an upset at Worlds. Because an upset (or two) will be needed for the US to retain the 3 spots unless the Worlds field is majorly depleted.

 

[yelyoh]

+1 :agree: There were a lot of deeply unrealistic expectations of the American ladies in the leadup to the Olympics, and even if all 3 had the skates of their lives, it's still highly unlikely that any of them would have medalled in this field. Top 10-12 in the individual and a team bronze, which is what they got, is in line with their relative performance to the rest of the field on a long-standing basis:
- Zhenia and Alina are in a class of their own and comparable to none but each other.
- Satoko, Kaetlyn, and Carolina were the main contenders for the bronze and have been scoring medals at past ISU Championships for 2+ seasons already.
- Kaori has been convincingly ahead of Bradie head-to-head at the 2017 JW and 2017 Skate America, so for Bradie to overtake her at Olympics would have been an upset.
- Masha has qualified for two consecutive GPF's and was also the 2016 JW silver medalist. So again, it would be an upset for any of the US ladies to beat her.

So, the only skater who was unexpected in finishing ahead of the 3 US ladies is Choi Da Bin, who had the skate of her life on home ice. But then, Gabby Daleman and Elizabet Tursynbaeva both had the potential to be ahead of the US ladies also and faltered. IMO, placement wise, they finished where they could have finished all along. If there's disappointment, it's that they all left points on the table and could better their scores.
Well. The next step is Worlds where they will be facing the same field. Hope that this experience will have proven valuable for Bradie to build the nerve she needs to pull off an upset at Worlds. Because an upset (or two) will be needed for the US to retain the 3 spots unless the Worlds field is majorly depleted.

Honestly now I'm just hoping for two spots for next year. Placing that 13 aggregate will be very difficult at this point. Of course in order to retain the two spots at least one of our three women will have to place top ten overall for that to occur. Correct? I do believe one of them will but who knows. As I said, I am hoping for two.

 

[Mrs. P]

Honestly now I'm just hoping for two spots for next year. Placing that 13 aggregate will be very difficult at this point. Of course in order to retain the two spots at least one of our three women will have to place top ten overall for that to occur. Correct? I do believe one of them will but who knows. As I said, I am hoping for two.

Placements = < 13

1/12
2/11
3/10
4/9
5/8
6/7

 

[klutzy]

The real cultural difference isn't so much the overbearing-ness of the American mom, rather it's how disrespected the teaching role is in America. In East Asia, for instance, parents are so much more overbearing and manage their kids within an inch of their lives, but teachers are revered and it is not socially acceptable for a parent to interfere with their domain.

But Chen, Chen and Nagasu who are being criticized for their lack of fortitude are all the children of immigrant parents from Asia. Are you saying those parents come here and pick up a habit of disrespect?

 

[klutzy]

There was no outrage about Polina, she had beautiful qualities and people were happy to have her there. Bradie isn't "daring to be better technically" (and that's hardly why she has been criticized), there isn't that much quality in her jumps. She was just consistent on them, for a few competitions.



Her 2A+3T has been cheated all season long and the 3Lutz+3Toe is borderline at best, should have been called at times.

I've seen enough of your posts to know that you have different standards on jumps than the judging panels. I'd say that if she's not getting called on URs then her jumps are good enough for the game as it's currently played. She does need to improve her presentation.

And there was debate about Polina--she was a junior and whether she should have gone to the Olympics led to quite a debate in this very thread just a couple of months ago. I agree that she was lovely--and I'm really sorry she's out of commission. A well Polina would be a valuable asset to the American team right now.

 

[klutzy]

Honestly now I'm just hoping for two spots for next year. Placing that 13 aggregate will be very difficult at this point. Of course in order to retain the two spots at least one of our three women will have to place top ten overall for that to occur. Correct? I do believe one of them will but who knows. As I said, I am hoping for two.

We had two skaters in the top 10 just now, even though all of them made errors in both programs, so I think we have a solid shot at two spots. Don't think we'll keep three and, honestly, we don't deserve three. Japan would make far better use of it.

 

[LRK]

Because they put all their expectations of Bradie. She came into the Olympics as the consistent one that never missed, they expected two clean spotless programs from her. With Mirai and Karen, the expectations were lower since they've been historically inconsistent.

I think it's unfair to Bradie because she never started this flawless narrative. That was Tara and USFS trying to hype another skater before they're ready. It's completely their fault for laying so much pressure on her when she's barely had one full season as a senior yet.

I'm tired of USFS annointing another lady and then throwing her under the bus when she doesn't live up to their own inflated expectations.

Back off people! Give her some room to become a champions instead of demanding her to be one right now.

They will never learn.

It just struck me reading this post that it seems that USFSA are doing to the American ladies what the Rus fed are doing to the Russian men. Both are in a similar situation - both used to regularly produce champions in the discipline, but are now experienceing a comparative slump. Both seem determined on pursuing the same "strategy" - never mind that the "strategy" has had no success, and in fact is doing far more harm than good.

Well, if you don't learn from history...

It's just depressing. I hope Bradie will be okay through all this and will be allowed to develop and mature at her own rate - I really like her a lot, and I do see great potential in her, if she's just left alone to fulfill it.

 

[chuckm]

Bradie isn't "daring to be better technically" (and that's hardly why she has been criticized), there isn't that much quality in her jumps. She was just consistent on them, for a few competitions.

Her 2A+3T has been cheated all season long and the 3Lutz+3Toe is borderline at best, should have been called at times.

Your opinion, and you are not a certified ISU Tech Specialist or ISU Tech Controller.

You think Ross Miner rotates all his 4S and now you say Bradie doesn't rotate the 3z+3t she's been given credit for at 5 competitions this year. Borderline at best? Hardly---she got +1.1 GOE for it. She also got +GOE on all her jumps except the two jumps with the step outs.
Her 2a+3t was ratified at 3 other competitions this season. The 3t was < at the Olympic FS because she stepped out of it----that is not "all season long".

 

[skaterlor]

I agree. It's unsettling to me, as a parent of a young figure skater, to see how people are so quick to dismiss a skater just because of a bad skate or that they didn't live up to their vision of who they thought they should become. This morning as I sat at the ice arena watching my daughter skate I couldn't help but silently wish she'd walk away from this sport. Of course I would never verbalize that out loud

 

[twirlingblades]

Yes, as an American, I cringed too.

Karen Chen complained about not having her mom 24/7. She’s 18. A lot of Americans (myself included) go off to college and don’t see their parents for months. I know someone is going to say this is a big competition and not the same thing, but my opinion stands. That level of dependency is not good imo.

Same for Mirai Nagasu and her litany of complaints. One of which is that she couldn’t go home during the 2 weeks like she had at the last Olympics she competed in. Good grief. She’s 24.

I read an article noting that, among other reasons, the state of US ladies figure skating wouldn’t change unless they developed some resilience and mental fortitude, and ICAM.

This is actually really interesting because high level athletes can sometimes be a bit socially behind people of the same age because their lives are so different.

 

[Grin]

IMAO 2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating = 2017-18 State of Russian Me(h)n Skating

 

[fallingsk8er]

The US Ladies should get 3 spots. They will be fired up after this competition and the medal winners may not bring their A games. Satoko will probably medal and Mirai and Karen will likely redeem themselves after those sub par free skates.

 

[fallingsk8er]

And yes, I know satoko is not a US lady, but she’s my favorite skater right now. So expressive.