Nathan Chen

[oatmella]

What do you all mean by values + emojis ?...is it good or bad lol
Can we have old and new comparison?

old BV of jumps:

3A 8.5 (now 8.0)
4T 10.3 (now 9.5)
4S 10.5 (now 9.7)
4Lo 12.0 (now 10.5)
4F 12.3 (now 11)
4Lz 13.6 (now 11.5)
4A 15.0 (now 12.5)

 

[yyyskate]

saw the new rule, Yuna's jump will got +5...

 

[yyyskate]

old BV of jumps:

3A 8.5 (now 8.0) -0.5
4T 10.3 (now 9.5) -0.8 Nathan
4S 10.5 (now 9.7) -0.8
4Lo 12.0 (now 10.5) -1.5
4F 12.3 (now 11) -1.3 Nathan
4Lz 13.6 (now 11.5) -2.1 Nathan
4A 15.0 (now 12.5) -2.5

..... discouraging difficult quads, the more difficult, the more devalued..

 

[oatmella]

are these approved rule changes?

well the ISU file says:

SINGLE & PAIR SKATING
Scale of Values, Levels of Difficulty and Guidelines for marking
Grade of Execution, season 2018/19
Subject to 57th ISU Congress Decisions

so these are the proposed changes. sorry if I didn't make that clear earlier!

 

[oatmella]

proposed REDUCTIONS FOR ERRORS
JUMP ELEMENTS

Fall -5
Landing on two feet in a jump -3 to -4
Stepping out of landing in a jump -3 to -4
2 three turns in between (jump combo) -2 to -3
Wrong edge take off F/Lz (sign “e”) -3 to -4
Unclear edge take off F/Lz (sign “!”) -1 to -3
Unclear edge take off F/Lz (no sign) -1
Poor take-off -2 to -3
Downgraded (sign << ) -3 to -4
Under-rotated (sign < ) -2 to -3
Lacking rotation (no sign) including half loop in a combo -1 to -2
Poor speed, height, distance, or air position -1 to -3
Touch down with both hands in a jump -2 to -3
Touch down with one hand or free foot -1 to -2
Loss of flow/direction/rhythm between jumps (combo/seq.) -2 to -3
Weak landing (bad pos./wrongedge/scratching etc) -1 to -3
Long preparation -2 to -3

 

[yyyskate]

1) very good height and very good length (of all jumps in a combo or sequence) Nathan okay
2) good take-off and landing Nathan very good
3) effortless throughout (including rhythm in Jump combination) Nathan good
4) steps before the jump, unexpected or creative entry Nathan lacking no difficulty entry in front of Nathan's quad jumps maybe except 4T
5) very good body position from take-off to landing Nathan very good
6) element matches the music Nathan very good

I think Nathan can get decent +3 with his current quads quality

 

[Mamamiia]

proposed REDUCTIONS FOR ERRORS
JUMP ELEMENTS

Fall -5
Landing on two feet in a jump -3 to -4
Stepping out of landing in a jump -3 to -4
2 three turns in between (jump combo) -2 to -3
Wrong edge take off F/Lz (sign “e”) -3 to -4
Unclear edge take off F/Lz (sign “!”) -1 to -3
Unclear edge take off F/Lz (no sign) -1
Poor take-off -2 to -3
Downgraded (sign << ) -3 to -4
Under-rotated (sign < ) -2 to -3
Lacking rotation (no sign) including half loop in a combo -1 to -2
Poor speed, height, distance, or air position -1 to -3
Touch down with both hands in a jump -2 to -3
Touch down with one hand or free foot -1 to -2
Loss of flow/direction/rhythm between jumps (combo/seq.) -2 to -3
Weak landing (bad pos./wrongedge/scratching etc) -1 to -3
Long preparation -2 to -3

Sounds like it will be much more difficult to break existing records given the lower bvs and higher deductions.

 

[yyyskate]

proposed REDUCTIONS FOR ERRORS
JUMP ELEMENTS

Fall -5
Landing on two feet in a jump -3 to -4
Stepping out of landing in a jump -3 to -4
2 three turns in between (jump combo) -2 to -3
Wrong edge take off F/Lz (sign “e”) -3 to -4
Unclear edge take off F/Lz (sign “!”) -1 to -3Unclear edge take off F/Lz (no sign) -1
Poor take-off -2 to -3
Downgraded (sign << ) -3 to -4
Under-rotated (sign < ) -2 to -3
Lacking rotation (no sign) including half loop in a combo -1 to -2
Poor speed, height, distance, or air position -1 to -3
Touch down with both hands in a jump -2 to -3
Touch down with one hand or free foot -1 to -2
Loss of flow/direction/rhythm between jumps (combo/seq.) -2 to -3
Weak landing (bad pos./wrongedge/scratching etc) -1 to -3
Long preparation -2 to -3

touch down with hands seems is not punished as harsh as before, other than other, the deductions seems reasonable.

seems, ISU wanna good quality jumps in it self. so basically, big jumps with height, length and good flow/rhythms and good technique (take-off etc.) will get lots of points,

the fancy stuff, like difficult entry, difficult exit, and arm position in the air is not valued as much, only difficult entry kept.

I think Kaetlyn Osmond's jump will get +5 GOE

 

[sheetz]

Sounds like it will be much more difficult to break existing records given the lower bvs and higher deductions.

The changes with the new system will make comparisons to previous records impossible. They are essentially starting with a new system.

 

[yyyskate]

Those values.

At least Nathan is still making steady money with his sponsors. Although he can still conduct workshops if he wants to.

yes, Nathan can teach kids skating:yes:

 

[hhh]

DWTS Icenetwork if not shared
http://web.icenetwork.com/photos/275779200

 

[yyyskate]

really hope GOE is weighted quad vs triple etc. hopefully weighted in favor of Quad.
since BV wise it is already not fair to quads which is so much more difficult to do than a triple..

 

[oatmella]

I liked the first two episodes of DWTS very much.

Episode #1: they showed two clips of Nathan at the Olympic team event

Episode #2: he had prime audience seating, was included in so many shots, and we got to see him wearing light-up Mickey ears hat

Episode #3 and #4: no Nathan

happy for Adam's win though

 

[yyyskate]

don't like those arm positions in the air, looks so awkward to me 90 percent of the time.

Got this from the Edge

"And as for Nathan Chen? He does not have exactly the same jumps in his SP and FS, but the 4Lz and 4F combos are kind of comparable. I looked at his Worlds programs first and then checked also the FS in the early part of the season.

In the SP (by Bourne), he uses 35 s to set up the 4Lz combo with 5 changes in direction. In the FS, by Nichol, he uses 30 s to set up the 4F combo with 5 changes in direction. In the SP, for the solo jump, 4F, 27 s and 1 change in direction. In the FS, the first 4Lz 25 s and 3 changes in direction. And the single 4F in the FS: 3 changes in direction and 22 s"

Anybody else timed this?

Yuzuru: 2012-3 Wilson program. 13 changes in direction and 21 “rotational steps” inside them. Hanyu’s timeline is also similar to Chan’s: 26 s for the 4T, 28 s for 4S, 12 s for 3A, 28 s for 3A combo after midway, 15 s for 3Lz combo, 15 s for the 2ns 3Lz combo, 12 s for 3Lo, 10 s for 3F. Each segment between the jumps was divided to 2 or 3 with 4 jumps in each.

Patrick: With Nichol in 2011-2 he did 14 changes in direction in the FS and these were always between jumps. The time between jumps is usually 10-20 s – more with difficult jumps, less with easy ones. From the start to 4T it took 29 s, from that to 4T+3T 21 s, to 3A 19 s; in the second part 35 s from spin to 3Lz combo, 11 s to 3Lo, 14 s to 3F, after spin 12 s to 3Lz, 14 s to 2A. Each segment was divided into at least two by one change in direction. Chan ended up doing 14 altogether. The 3Lz combo was preceded by 3 changes, most had 2 (4T, 3Lo, 3F, 2A), some only 1 (4T+3T, 3A, 3Lz).

i think most of the stuff talked about here is transitions (in-between) not counted to jump GOE
only difficult entry counted as jump GOE for 1 bullet.

 

[oatmella]

really hope GOE is weighted quad vs triple etc. hopefully weighted in favor of Quad.
since BV wise it is already not fair to quads which is so much more difficult to do than a triple..

aren't quads like 10x harder to do than triples? hard to quantify - but so much harder

um, never thought of timing Nathan (or anyone). wondering if the harder quads require more preparation time? Only a few do 4Lz and 4F so not many data points here.

I guess technically Nathan could get +5 GOE for a jump without difficult entry - if he fulfills all the other bullet points

 

[oatmella]

Could get quite a lot of points with +5 GOE on elements

Spins:
1) good speed and/or acceleration during spin
2) good controlled, clear position(s) (inc. height and air/landing position in flying spin)
3) effortless throughout
4) maintaining a centered spin
5) creativity and originality

Step Sequences:
1) deep edges, clean steps and turns
2) element matches the music
3) effortless throughout with good energy, flow and execution
4) creativity and originality
5) excellent commitment and control of the whole body
6) good acceleration and deceleration
6) element matches the music

Choreographic Sequences
1) creativity and originality
2) element matches the music
3) effortless throughout with good energy, flow and execution
4) good ice coverage
5) good clarity and precision
6) excellent commitment and control of the whole body

FOR + 1 : 1 bullet
FOR + 2 : 2 bullets
FOR + 3 : 3 bullets
FOR + 4 : 4 bullets
FOR + 5 : 5 or more bullets
FOR + 4 and +5 THE FIRST THREE bullets highlighted in bold must be present

 

[yyyskate]

aren't quads like 10x harder to do than triples? hard to quantify - but so much harder

um, never thought of timing Nathan (or anyone). wondering if the harder quads require more preparation time? Only a few do 4Lz and 4F so not many data points here.

I guess technically Nathan could get +5 GOE for a jump without difficult entry - if he fulfills all the other bullet points

yes technically Nathan could get +5 if he is very good at other bullets. there are 6 bullets

quad lutz, I don't think any quad lutz jumpers do difficult entry. except for Vincent has the potential to do arms but seems not counted anymore, so Nathan's best quad lutz if not deserving +5, it is still the best out there.
quad flip, Nathan and Vincent are the only two right now can do quad flip withOUT pre-rotation (which will be punished in new rule, shoma will be hurt ) no other skaters can do quad flip, let alone difficult entry.but I think Vincent is planning to add a difficult entry to his quad flip (maybe a eagle)

quad loop, shoma has difficult entry IIRC, others Yuzuru or Nathan(the 2 he landed) are pretty much similar quality. but Nathan does not do quad loop much.
quad sal, Yuzuru, Javi, and others has better quality sal than Nathan including difficult entry and jump quality
quad Toe, Nathan's matched all bullet including difficult entry but so as many others.

3A Nathan may try to add a difficult entry to 3A (he can) for one bullet since his 3A quality itself is not as good as some of the better 3A jumpers.

 

[yyyskate]

i think Nathan may be able to add difficult entry to his quad Lutz, One good feature about Nathan's quad is that his preparation time is relatively short.

spin GOE bullet looks good ,Nathan can got high GOE on spins just need to keep the level at the same time. if level 3 and level 4 spin BV is not different much, Nathan could actually go for GOE on lv 3

for stsq I think Nathan need to work on bullet 1 1) deep edges, clean steps and turns. his edges could be deeper and with cleaner turns. other bullets Nathan already has

for choreo sequence, I think a spiral sequence that covers the whole rink like Yuna used to do at 2010 OG would fit all the bullets here.

 

[alexaa]

Thanks yyyskate for the explanation. That whole choreography thread is kind of hard for me to follow.

Nathan's 3A was getting better since OG, if he is doing what Doug Haw suggests to do, I think he should make quite some improvement. Actually iirc, his 3A was better during 2017 nationals than 2018 nationals, not sure if it was because his mind was more on quad.

And speaking of landing, to me he has shown consistence in improving his landing.

Honestly, I am not that worried about impact of new rule changes on him compared to his coaching/training when he goes to Yale. It is not just him going to be impacted, he should be the quickest to adapt to the new rules if he puts his heart to it.

 

[oatmella]

sorry I'm a little confused as to what is just a proposal and what is actually part of the new rules. someone posted in the edge:

'Per my understanding, the new BVs are done and they’re not the proposals. They don’t need to vote for this. They will only debate the other proposals?New BV will be effective from July?'

Also points for spins and step sequences are reduced as well.