Asian and American Champs instead of 4CC?

[gkelly]

When did the ISU start publishing world rankings?

Four Continents was first held in 1999, but it was in the planning stages since the 1994 ISU Congress, along with the Champions (now Grand Prix) series, which started in 1995-96. Probably it took 4 years to get the scheduling worked out, since US and Canada often held their nationals in early February in non-Olympic years and the dates were already contracted several years in advance.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

When did the ISU start publishing world rankings?

Not totally scientific, but I just looked up the archived pages for the World Standings and the World Rankings on the Wayback Machine. And the earliest records were from 2010:

[TABLE="class: grid"]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Category[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]World Rankings[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]World Standings[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ladies[/TD]
[TD]16[SUP]th[/SUP] October 2010[/TD]
[TD]28[SUP]th[/SUP] August 2010[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Men[/TD]
[TD]28[SUP]th[/SUP] August 2010[/TD]
[TD]7[SUP]th[/SUP] October 2010[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pairs[/TD]
[TD]22[SUP]nd[/SUP] November 2010
[/TD]
[TD]22[SUP]nd[/SUP] November 2010[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dance[/TD]
[TD]22[SUP]nd[/SUP] November 2010[/TD]
[TD]22[SUP]nd[/SUP] November 2010[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Of course, they could have been around long before that, but not published on those addresses.

Incidentally, when I was looking up season’s best scores for the Fan Fests I run, the records on the ISU website only went back to the 2011–12 season.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

In whose minds do they lack prestige though? Not that I like citing ISU's nonsense ranking system, but I think gold at either the Euros or the 4CC fetches you the same number of points. Just because the Euros was established a while back doesn't mean it's "more prestigious", and it certainly shouldn't be considered more prestigious than the 4CCs, when the 4CCs has straight up more talent at this point. Maybe people should start evaluating talent and using their brains, instead of claiming something has more prestige based on history. Geocentrism was also a historically accepted "fact".

I think you're right that Euro's prestige is probably due mostly to history. It was a big deal when Slutskaya topped Witt's record of European championships, but in recent years I don't think the event has held as much prestige since Worlds and the GPF typically have stronger fields.

 

[Mango]

In the speed skating branch they proposed having a Four Continents Championships at this year's ISU Congress. I didn't follow up to see if they were successful with that proposal or not. But it seems this format is liked by participating nations.

There's always a desire to have international events but not with a crazy number of participants. 4CC and Euros fill that need.

 

[ice coverage]

When did the ISU start publishing world rankings?

Four Continents was first held in 1999, but it was in the planning stages since the 1994 ISU Congress, along with the Champions (now Grand Prix) series, which started in 1995-96. Probably it took 4 years to get the scheduling worked out, since US and Canada often held their nationals in early February in non-Olympic years and the dates were already contracted several years in advance.

FWIW:

An ISU Communication seems to refer to World Standings at least as far back as April 2003.

https://isu.org/decisions-of-the-isu-council/1358-1377-decisions-of-the-isu-council/file (see bottom of p. 1)​

Wikipedia, which usually is a last resort for me :hopelessness:, led me to archived pages of ISU World Standings as of Jun 2003, such as:

https://web.archive.org/web/20030611042152/http://www.isufs.org:80/ws/wsmen.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20030620104204/http://www.isufs.org:80/ws/wsladies.htm​

An Oct 2004 OP on GS quotes the ISU handbook re using World Standings for GP assignments.

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?7002-Why-I-wonder-if-Angela-will-get-assignment-2​

Doris referred to "ISU world rankings" in an Apr 2004 GS thread re GP assignments:

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?5002-GP-assignments&p=60297&viewfull=1#post60297​

All of the above came after the first Four Continents.

 

[frallik]

"The only advantage that euros have over 4CC is prestige due to history. But that doesn't make euros more important than 4CC or more competitive. These last years 4CC were more:eeking:competitive than euros in most of categories." -

4CC 2018 - 23 Ladies 12 countries 1 - 5 1007.87 = 201.674 / 6 - 10 839.60 = 167.92
EuroCup 2018 - 40 Ladies 30 countries 1 - 5 1056.07 = 211.214 / 6 - 10 810.54 = 162.108

4CC 2018 - 30 Men 15 countries 1 - 5 1383.90 = 276.78 / 6 -10 1194.11 = 238.822
EuroCup 2018 - 37 Men 30 countries 1 - 5 1310.47 = 262.084 / 6 -10 1118.47 = 223.694

4CC Pairs 2018 - 7 Pairs 11 countries 1 - 3 570.01 = 190.003
EuroCup 2018 - 14 Pairs 11 countries 1 - 3 642.79 = 214.263

4CC Dance 2018 - 6 Dance 14 countries 1 - 3 503.11 = 167.703
EuroCup 2018 - 22 Dance 40 countries 1 - 3 575.15 = 191.716

USA - 4(2 Gold - 1 -1) / Japan 5 - 4CC 2018
Russia - 9(2 Gold - 4 - 3) - EroCup 2018

 

[SnowWhite]

"The only advantage that euros have over 4CC is prestige due to history. But that doesn't make euros more important than 4CC or more competitive. These last years 4CC were more:eeking:competitive than euros in most of categories." -

4CC 2018 - 23 Ladies 12 countries 1 - 5 1007.87 = 201.674 / 6 - 10 839.60 = 167.92
EuroCup 2018 - 40 Ladies 30 countries 1 - 5 1056.07 = 211.214 / 6 - 10 810.54 = 162.108

4CC 2018 - 30 Men 15 countries 1 - 5 1383.90 = 276.78 / 6 -10 1194.11 = 238.822
EuroCup 2018 - 37 Men 30 countries 1 - 5 1310.47 = 262.084 / 6 -10 1118.47 = 223.694

4CC Pairs 2018 - 7 Pairs 11 countries 1 - 3 570.01 = 190.003
EuroCup 2018 - 14 Pairs 11 countries 1 - 3 642.79 = 214.263

4CC Dance 2018 - 6 Dance 14 countries 1 - 3 503.11 = 167.703
EuroCup 2018 - 22 Dance 40 countries 1 - 3 575.15 = 191.716

USA - 4(2 Gold - 1 -1) / Japan 5 - 4CC 2018
Russia - 9(2 Gold - 4 - 3) - EroCup 2018

You can't really use 2018 when you know full well that many strong skaters skip 4CC in the Olympic season because it's close to the Games than Euros is.

 

[NanaPat]

You can't really use 2018 when you know full well that many strong skaters skip 4CC in the Olympic season because it's close to the Games than Euros is.

And I believe most people who say 4CC has as stong/stronger fields than Europeans usually specify "in a non-Olympic year".

 

[SnowWhite]

4CC 2017 - 26 Men, 11 countries - 1st 307.46, 2nd 303.71, 3rd 288.05 - podium avg. = 299.74, 1st-5th avg. = 286.94, 6th-10th avg. = 238.70
Euros 2017 - 36 Men, 28 countries - 1st 294.84, 2nd 266.80, 3rd 250.18 - podium avg. = 270.61, 1st-5th avg. = 258.72, 6th-10th avg. = 231.5

4CC 2017 - 21 Ladies, 10 countries - 1st 200.85, 2nd 196.91, 3rd 194.95 - podium avg. = 197.57, 1st-5th avg. = 191.86, 6th=10th avg. = 174.05
Euros 2017 - 34 Ladies, 27 countries - 1st 229.71, 2nd 211.39, 3rd 210.52 - podium avg. = 217.21, 1st-5th avg. = 206.45, 6th-10th avg. = 169.34

4CC 2017 - 15 Pairs, 6 countries - 1st 225.03, 2nd 212.23, 3rd 205.31 - podium avg. = 214.19, 1st-5th avg. = 209.78
Euros 2017 - 18 Pairs, 12 countries - 1st 227.58, 2nd 222.35, 3rd 220.02 - podium avg. = 223.32, 1st-5th avg. = 217.44

4CC 2017 - 16 Dance teams, 6 countries - 1st 196.95, 2nd 191.85, 3rd 185.58 - podium avg. = 191.46, 1st-5th avg. = 187.06
Euros 2017 - 30 Dance teams, 23 countries - 1st 189.67, 2nd 186.64, 3rd 186.56 - podium avg. = 187.62, 1st-5th avg. = 179.82

In ladies, Euros is clearly stronger, as we know. In men, 4CC comes out much stronger. In pairs, Euros is still stronger but the gap is significantly less than in 2018 (since no top pairs went to 4CC). In dance, look at that, now 4CC comes out as a bit stronger.

If you want to talk about this season, lets compare medals won by 4CC/Euros skaters at other comps:

4CC skaters
- 7 GPF medals (2 men, 1 ladies, 2 pairs, 2 dance) - 1 gold, 3 silver, 3 bronze
- 7 Olympic medals (2 men, 1 ladies, 2 pairs, 2 dance) - 2 gold, 2 silver, 3 bronze

Euros skaters
- 5 GPF medals (1 men, 2 ladies, 1 pairs, 1 dance) - 3 gold, 1 silver, 1 bronze
- 5 Olympic medals (1 men, 2 ladies, 1 pairs, 1 dance) - 2 gold, 2 silver, 1 bronze

Here 4CC skaters are getting more medals. At GPF, Euros skaters have more golds, but this isn't true at the Olympics. Euros are stronger in ladies, 4CC in men, and 4CC also has a bit of an advantage in pairs and dance here.

 

[Colonel Green]

If you want to talk about this season, lets compare medals won by 4CC/Euros skaters at other comps:

4CC skaters
- 7 GPF medals (2 men, 1 ladies, 2 pairs, 2 dance) - 1 gold, 3 silver, 3 bronze
- 7 Olympic medals (2 men, 1 ladies, 2 pairs, 2 dance) - 2 gold, 2 silver, 3 bronze

Euros skaters
- 5 GPF medals (1 men, 2 ladies, 1 pairs, 1 dance) - 3 gold, 1 silver, 1 bronze
- 5 Olympic medals (1 men, 2 ladies, 1 pairs, 1 dance) - 2 gold, 2 silver, 1 bronze

Here 4CC skaters are getting more medals. At GPF, Euros skaters have more golds, but this isn't true at the Olympics. Euros are stronger in ladies, 4CC in men, and 4CC also has a bit of an advantage in pairs and dance here.

Also, 2018 Worlds:

4CC: 7 medals (2 men, 3 ladies [podium sweep!], 0 pairs [first time that happened since 1997], 2 dance) - 2 gold, 3 silver, 2 bronze
Euros: 5 medals (1 man, 0 ladies [first time that happened since 1992], 3 pairs, 1 dance) - 2 gold, 1 silver, 2 bronze

 

[ladyjane]

I thought this thread was about making major events outside of Europe more important - the OP thought that having Asian and American championships would do the job - but why has it now turned into a contest between Euros and 4CC? Europe has many countries in which FS is an important sport, and I always thought 4CC was invented to supply other parts of the World with an equivalent counterpart. Which it has turned out to be. It's not for nothing that the ISU is now also starting up 4CC championships in speed Skating. Apparently they think 4CC is fulfilling its job.

Except for the Olympic years then where Europeans is seen as an important 'practice' run for the Olympics and 4CC is not because the top US and Canadian competitors don't show up (but the Japanese ladies and men do) it being held so much closer to those Olympics. So, now more medals are awarded at Worlds and the Olympics to skaters from 4CC countries than from European ones. And? I really don't see what the point is of this discussion. To me, it just shows 4CC is important in its own right, even having more stronger fields in some disciplines, as it was originally intended to be. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned.

To me the original OP put forward a suggestion to boost the sport in other parts of the world than Europe, and I think the suggestion made was not a good one (my personal view). But it was just that: a suggestion from someone who truly wished to get the sport developped among other countries in the World than the European ones. As such an admirable suggestion in my view, even if I might not agree with the suggestion in itself, as it is always good when a sport gets to broaden itself to more and lesser known countries. Long live Mexico and The Philippines in this regard. Once 4CC gets to the degree that not only a few countries automatically get to send 3 skaters but that the number depends on placements: mission accomplished. Then there might be a time to reconsider and get back to the original posters ideas. For now I'm just pleased 4CC is evolving in the right direction.

Being a European myself, I'll still be watching Europeans expectantly, whether it's providing medallists at Worlds and the Olympics or not.

 

[yume]

In 2017 season 4CC skaters have even more domination at GPF and worlds.......
All this discussion just show that "euros are more important or stronger than 4CC" is not a valid argument to justify the slipt of 4 continents.

 

[GrandmaCC]

What about following other sports and going with the Pacific-Rim or Pan-Pacific type name?
I do love the idea of getting Polar in there somewhere, though!

Is anyone else confused by the current need to create a mish mash of regions by whatever means possible? Inclusivity is nice, but some things are just...too much. Certainly they’d be too much for the skaters who have to fly around the world and then pretend to be an integral part of their current location.

Maybe we could take our cue from the summer sports and break competitions down into Olympic and Universaide games (as currently occurs), then go a winter version of the Commonwealth Games - that would encompass a lot of the nations currently included in 4CC’s - or alternatively just create a Commonwealth Skating Comp due to the high price of hosting another multi sport comp.
The rest would likely be eligible for the skating specific Pan Pacific Polar Pearl-Spin Podium Plight.


And there we have it, enough “big” competitions for athletes to gain experience at/fans to enjoy, but without the weirdness of throwing random countries together on the basis of then not being A.Part.Of.Europe. I mean, Australia is going to be part of the Asian games, FFS. Until Summer rocks around of course, and then it’s “hey y’all we are British!”

 

[GrandmaCC]

In 2017 season 4CC skaters have even more domination at GPF and worlds.......
All this discussion just show that "euros are more important or stronger than 4CC" is not a valid argument to justify the slipt of 4 continents.

I was wondering about this. USFS considers 4CC’s to be 2nd teir, right?

I couldn’t help but laugh at your “split of 4 continents” comment, no disrespect intended at all (haven’t read all the pages yet), I don’t know whether you were referring to scrapping 4CC’s, I just thought that it’s really hilarious that Australia counts as one of the 4 continents. We are one only one country and a small one at that population wise, even smaller in terms of skating...it’s just a crack up to think that we count enough to constitute a quarter of the competition & its title.

 

[karne]

I was wondering about this. USFS considers 4CC’s to be 2nd teir, right?

Man, people just really won't let this utter MYTH die, will they?

USFS sends a B team - in Olympic years ONLY, because of the proximity to the Olympics.

Every other year they very definitely name an A team.

Now, certain skaters - like Ashley Wagner - have some deluded notion that they're too good for 4CC and choose not to go. But the USFS definitely does not treat 4CC as a 2nd tier comp.

Oh, and: Australia is not the 4th continent. Oceania is. If New Zealand had skaters with the minimums they could send them. And we were guests of the Asian Games. Our skaters couldn't win medals.

 

[formersk8ter]

4CC has really gained in importance as the years have progressed. For a time, USFS only sent its second tier skaters there, but not any longer (except in the Olympic year).

From what I can see, 4CC is now equally important as Europeans, and often produces better results.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

What about following other sports and going with the Pacific-Rim or Pan-Pacific type name?
I do love the idea of getting Polar in there somewhere, though!

Is anyone else confused by the current need to create a mish mash of regions by whatever means possible? Inclusivity is nice, but some things are just...too much. Certainly they’d be too much for the skaters who have to fly around the world and then pretend to be an integral part of their current location.

Maybe we could take our cue from the summer sports and break competitions down into Olympic and Universaide games (as currently occurs), then go a winter version of the Commonwealth Games - that would encompass a lot of the nations currently included in 4CC’s - or alternatively just create a Commonwealth Skating Comp due to the high price of hosting another multi sport comp.
The rest would likely be eligible for the skating specific Pan Pacific Polar Pearl-Spin Podium Plight.


And there we have it, enough “big” competitions for athletes to gain experience at/fans to enjoy, but without the weirdness of throwing random countries together on the basis of then not being A.Part.Of.Europe. I mean, Australia is going to be part of the Asian games, FFS. Until Summer rocks around of course, and then it’s “hey y’all we are British!”

I know you haven't read the whole thread, but I suggested having a Asia-Pacific Championship so that you and New Zealand wouldn't be left out in the cold. And a Pan-American Championship, so that everywhere south of the USA wouldn't be similarly left out.

I would love to see the Commonwealth Winter Games return (they were actually held 3 times in the 50's and 60's in Switzerland). There was a revival planned for 2010 in India, but it was ultimately cancelled.

For more, see this Wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_Winter_Games

It is interesting to note that the Commonwealth Winter Games were founded by A FIGURE SKATER – Tyke Richardson.

There are 2 problems with having the Commonwealth Winter Games. The first is that Canada would dominate all the sports. Nobody else would get a look in, because nobody else in the Commonwealth is that into Winter Sports.

The main problem, though, is getting a host. The Summer Games are already struggling to get places to bid to be hosts:

• The 2014 Games (won by Glasgow, Scotland) only had 3 bids.
• The 2018 Games (won by Gold Coast, Queensland) only had 2 bids.
• The 2022 Games (won by Durban, South Africa) only had 1 bid (Edmonton withdrew their bid a few months before the vote).

Durban ultimately gave back the 2022 Summer Games because they couldn't afford the cost. And it is now being hosted by Birmingham, England.

Incidentally, Belfast won the 2021 Commonwealth Youth Games by being the only bidder. But, although all the political parties here backed the Games, they didn't get round to approving the budget before the power sharing government collapsed in January 2017. As we haven't had a government since then (the 2 parties that are supposed to be sharing power are refusing to work with each other, and neither will budge), the civil service has been making the urgent financial decisions. And on Friday, they judged that hosting the Games wasn't value for money and handed them back.

Suffice to say, most people here are furious!

Anyway, getting back to winter sports, after the cost of the Sochi Olympics, it is going to be more difficult to get bidders for any winter multi-sport event. The only places that are going to be bidding are places that already have the facilities in place. And in terms of the Commonwealth, that just means Canada.

Unless, of course, the Commonwealth Games Federation does like they did in the early days of their Winter Games and look outside the Commonwealth for hosts.

But, that is not ideal.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[gkelly]

So if you wanted to splinter Four Continents would these smaller regional competitions be considered ISU Championships and receive ISU prize money?

Would it be fair to award the same prize money for events with 10 countries participating as they award for Europeans?

Maybe get rid of prize money at all these continental events and don't consider them ISU championships at all?

Or keep events as they now stand and also encourage coalitions of federations to establish international events that include their own federations as separate events sanctioned by but not sponsored by the ISU at all.

 

[nocturnalis]

China, S. Korea, Japan, Canada, and United States are the most prominent countries represented at 4CCs. France, Germany, Spain, Italy, and Russia are the most prominent countries represented at Euros. Why don't we split up Euros?

 

[SamuraiKike]

I dont like idea.. 4CC has become stronger and build its prestige thanks to the growing development of both NA + Asian countries.. Right now 4CC has better depth than Euros during non olympic years, Splitting it would only dilude the importance of the 2 "new events".