2018-19 U.S. Ladies' figure skating

[andromache]

You know the USFSA is praying to TPTB that Alysa stays healthy and that her jumps grow along with her. If she's competing seniors this year and goes out and nails it the way she has been so far this summer I wouldn't be shocked if she's placed above both Bradie and Karen. She's too young to go to worlds so the team would still be Bradie/Karen but it sends a message...

I wouldn't be surprised if we see a lot of younger/fresh face skaters in the top 5 this year (e.g. Alysu Liu, Ting Cui, Audrey Shin, Pooja Kalyan, Hanna Harrell, etc.). I'm actually crossing my fingers for it TBH. I'm ready for the next generation to take over for the US women. I feel like Bradie is a guarantee for the podium (if there is such a thing, which there isn't, but whatever...) and everyone else is a question mark. I could totally see some of the younger girls stepping it up and putting pressure on the veterans to deliver. It could be like 2008 when a bunch of age ineligibles took over the podium.

I'm kinda ready for the next generation as well, and if they outskate the veterans, they definitely deserve it! But USFS should not put all their eggs in the baskets of the novices/juniors. Wayyyy too often USFS has gotten stoked on young talent that later fizzled due to injury, technique issues, or puberty.

 

[princessalica]

I'd heard that Karen and Hannah were both seen up working with Alex O on jumps, and if Hannah can fix technique and if Karen can improve her issues on jumps, they could be forces to be reckoned with. ( I realize Karen has made a splash at Worlds in 17). I always appreciate when a skater looks for someone to really improve their weaknesses.

 

[el henry]

I need to say, I really don’t understand the message that a senior lady should take from Alysa Liu competing at Nats.

Be 13 years old?

When Alysa has those jumps at 15 (or 16, if I were Queen of the ISU and had my way), and competes at Worlds with those jumps at 15/16, and has programs to match, *then* I’m impressed and worried. Otherwise as a fan, I’m just watching, waiting, and hoping she continues to improve.:agree:

 

[Mrs. P]

Alysa does have some major competitive drive. The fact she won junior nationals despite being feverish is pretty impressive.

 

[el henry]

I’m not saying I’m not impressed by Alysa, she obviously has drive and talent.

Of course, I also think in many ways it is easier for a 12 year old to be fearless than an older teen, but that is a generalization and not necessarily applicable here.

I will be most impressed when Alysa does this at age 16. Then I’ll be and

 

[kwanatic]

Wayyyy too often USFS has gotten stoked on young talent that later fizzled due to injury, technique issues, or puberty.

Very true but it's what they do...their modus operandi if you will. They are notorious on throwing not only the eggs but the entire chicken in the basket of whatever new star shows a bit of promise. And when that skater fizzles (which sadly happens more often than not) they move on to the next.

I'm sure the USFSA is salivating at the opportunity to toss Alysa out there, simply to show that the US has skaters capable of challenging the Russians. They're just going to have to wait a while. What I would hope they do is offer support to Alysa and a lot of these other very talented up-and-comers to make sure that they are receiving proper instruction. I know they hold little monitoring sessions/camps/something like that, but I just hope it's enough. I feel like the reason the Russian and Japanese skaters are so amazing is b/c their federation is heavily invested in their training. The USFSA seems more like the "hands off" kind of federation that lets everyone basically do what they want the majority of the time.

 

[andromache]

I'd heard that Karen and Hannah were both seen up working with Alex O on jumps, and if Hannah can fix technique and if Karen can improve her issues on jumps

This is an oversimplification. Ashley and Mirai worked for years and years to improve their URs, and they still usually UR often enough to take themselves out of contention for international and national medals/titles. They've each had major moments where they didn't UR (or didn't get called for UR) but neither has shown the ability to consistently rotate their jumps. Both ladies have shown that major improvements can be made, but they haven't shown that they could be sustained.

Not saying it's impossible, but that saying if someone can just fix their technique they'll be a force to be reckoned with is a pretty HUGE ask.

Karen has an advantage over Hannah in that she doesn't UR nearly as often and that her jumps are big - it's really that 3-3 that is the biggest weakness, along with general inconsistency.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I’m just watching, waiting, and hoping she continues to improve.:agree:

Well at least now you don’t have to say that you don’t follow ladies skating anymore

 

[kwanatic]

Karen has an advantage over Hannah in that she doesn't UR nearly as often and that her jumps are big - it's really that 3-3 that is the biggest weakness, along with general inconsistency.

Karen actually under-rotates quite consistently, especially in the FS. She didn't do a FS last year that didn't have at least 2 URs. I checked her FSs and her numbers are pretty high: 4 URs at US Intl Classic; 3 URs and a downgrade at SC; 2 URs at SA; 3 URs and a downgrade at nationals; and 2 URs at the Olympics. I assume her issue is a combination of her boot issues and slow rotation. The handful of times she landed her 3Lz-3T in the SP it was URed and she gets edge calls and dings on her 3F consistently as well.

Despite Karen's power and height she actually has quite a few issues with her jumps. I haven't seen Hannah as much to make a good comparison but if she suffers from UR issues and inconsistency as well, she and Karen appear to be in the same boat.

 

[chuckm]

Hannah is a far worse underrotator than Karen: she has even been dinged for URs on doubles.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Karen spends too much energy launching. She’s a perfect example of why I think jump height is overvalued. Clean tidy fully rotated jumps that don’t impede speed and flow should be the goal.

I think she should ditch 3z-3t and just launch her 3z by itself. Her 3z is nice but the height really hurts her ability to go into the 3t. I’m not sure how her 3f is or 3s but I’d like to see her do something like that. I love a good 3s-3t and maybe the GOE scale will start making it more beneficial to do those jumps instead of just doing the hardest possible combo at a lower quality of execution.

I love Karen though and think she has some of the best on ice presence but she just needs to reign in those jumps. My friend used to say you never really know what you have until you clean your room.

 

[kwanatic]

Karen spends too much energy launching. She’s a perfect example of why I think jump height is overvalued. Clean tidy fully rotated jumps that don’t impede speed and flow should be the goal.

I think she should ditch 3z-3t and just launch her 3z by itself. Her 3z is nice but the height really hurts her ability to go into the 3t. I’m not sure how her 3f is or 3s but I’d like to see her do something like that. I love a good 3s-3t and maybe the GOE scale will start making it more beneficial to do those jumps instead of just doing the hardest possible combo at a lower quality of execution.

I love Karen though and think she has some of the best on ice presence but she just needs to reign in those jumps. My friend used to say you never really know what you have until you clean your room.

I agree, though I'd like to see her just work on skimming her 3Lz rather than launching it to the moon. She carries enough speed and forward momentum into her 3Lz that she'd be able to get a 3T easy if she didn't land like a rock on the first jump and kill all of her monmentum. Someone just needs to teach her to scale back the power on the first jump and launch the 3T. Probably easier said than done though...

Let's face it to be competitive you need to have a 3F-3T or better. I love a good 3S-3T but it's just not going to cut it in terms of points needed to be competitive.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I love a good 3S-3T but it's just not going to cut it in terms of points needed to be competitive.

I’d like to fill the ISU comment box with my thoughts about that.

 

[andromache]

Hannah is a far worse underrotator than Karen: she has even been dinged for URs on doubles.

Basically this. Hannah has way fewer protocols to analyze, but I recall performances where just about every jump was UR. Karen URs much less frequently.

I agree, though I'd like to see her just work on skimming her 3Lz rather than launching it to the moon. She carries enough speed and forward momentum into her 3Lz that she'd be able to get a 3T easy if she didn't land like a rock on the first jump and kill all of her monmentum. Someone just needs to teach her to scale back the power on the first jump and launch the 3T. Probably easier said than done though...

Yes, Karen needs a smaller 3Lz in order to get the 3T rotated. Idk why this hasn't been addressed after so many years! But shrinking down jumps comes with a lot of criticism. I remember a LOT of complaints from fans about Frank making Gracie's jumps smaller than when she was with Alex (though granted, it's not like Gracie had a UR problem that ever needed addressing).

Karen spends too much energy launching. She’s a perfect example of why I think jump height is overvalued. Clean tidy fully rotated jumps that don’t impede speed and flow should be the goal.

Bigger jumps = bigger risk = bigger reward

 

[princessalica]

Gracie posted on ig about being excited about being on the international circuit again! Happy to see that she is sharing her happiness with us.

 

[synteis]

I tend to feel like the problem with US Ladies is that the US is used to being on the podium if not the gold medalist in the Ladies so all their female skaters are talked about with that in mind when they're coming onto the scene instead of letting expectation grow with results on the GP or at Worlds. It sets up an all or nothing reality that I think doesn't encourage their development into those placements.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I tend to feel like the problem with US Ladies is that the US is used to being on the podium if not the gold medalist in the Ladies so all their female skaters are talked about with that in mind when they're coming onto the scene instead of letting expectation grow with results on the GP or at Worlds. It sets up an all or nothing reality that I think doesn't encourage their development into those placements.

It might help too if there was a room for the sport in our day to day culture. With all the dance shows and talent shows on our nightly TV lineups it’s really a shame we haven’t seen anything like this.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BklpM9KAKa6/

Not only would it be fun to watch but it would give our skaters a competitive place to grow as athletes. IMO facing pressure and competition early on is extremely beneficial for athletes. I think a show like this would be a tremendous opportunity for the sport. Even if it were only on NBC Gold.

 

[KwanIsALegend]

I tend to feel like the problem with US Ladies is that the US is used to being on the podium if not the gold medalist in the Ladies so all their female skaters are talked about with that in mind when they're coming onto the scene instead of letting expectation grow with results on the GP or at Worlds. It sets up an all or nothing reality that I think doesn't encourage their development into those placements.

The USFSA is so quick to label a skater "she is going to be it, lets make her National champ, bombard her with press & media, yes, this is the one " and then the skater doesn't do well.
I agree with your post, let the skater develop. I still think Karen and Bradie weren't 'cooked' yet when they were thrown into the spotlight by the USFSA and it didn't serve them well.

I think it is because we don't have that 'star'. If we had a star (like Michelle Kwan for example) , Michelle would win (almost) every competition and the skaters who came in 3rd, 4th & 5th would have more competitions and more time to develop. Then when Michelle stepped down, these skaters would have their experience under their belt and be more consistent and be able to win national & international competitions. But as it stands now, any skater who manages a clean program , even if the program is not well developed and even a little juniorish wins, at least on a national level. But that doesn't mean they are ready for prime time.

 

[synteis]

Yes, being the national champ of any country is not enough and should never be enough to guarantee that someone is podium ready. Like yes, in Russia *right now* that's true but for many years it wasn't. Right now, the field in the US is not such that it should be any guarantee. Like I said, other countries have had to deal with their countries having a weaker field at the moment but the US's historical dominance, especially in the Ladies means that I think there's an entitlement and an expectation that the US National Ladies Champ should *always* be a contender.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Seems like the US mentality is to grow skaters and hope they mature later on. The disadvantage with this is the doubt the skater can create in the judges mind as they are developing. Ya know...the whole reputation thing and we know that the judges carry expectations that can increase future scrutiny. Like if Mariah went lights out...I doubt they’d score her as high as they would for a similar lights out performance with a few more GP medals under her belt.

Not saying it’s wrong to try and develop into the so called “mature” skater first (I absolutely despise that term) but when the rest of the field who’s getting into the top 10 are doing so after showing great results and along the way impressing the judges it does sort of make it a bit more difficult to breakthrough after sowing seeds of doubt. Maybe I’m overthinking it