2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

[cohen-esque]

I don't think you understood. Junior ladies are not allowed to do 3A or quad in SP at all. It is marked as an invalid element. Not like in seniors where they can do 3A instead of 2A. And even in seniors, no quad in SP for ladies.

No, I understood— it’s simply wrong. The 2018-19 Short Program jumping requirements for Junior Ladies are as follows:

• Double or Triple Flip

• Jump Combination (2+2, 2+3/3+2, 3+3; May not repeat 2A or solo jump)

• Double Axel

The Junior Ladies are only required to do a solo 2A and a solo 2/3F. There are no rules regarding what the triples in combination are allowed to be, except that they cannot include the same 2/3F as done for the solo jump. There is also no rule saying “the 3A may not be performed, at all, by juniors ladies in the short program.”

It’s the same exact principle as in 1991 when Tonya Harding did 3A+2T in the short for the required combination, or 1992 (?) when Midori Ito attempted it, or 2010 when Mao Asada did it, all before the senior SP axel jump was allowed to be a triple.

So. 2A, 3F, 3A+3T is a perfectly valid Junior Ladies SP layout, if an extremely ambitious one.

 

[leoleo]

No, I understood— it’s simply wrong. The 2018-19 Short Program jumping requirements for Junior Ladies are as follows:

• Double or Triple Flip

• Jump Combination (2+2, 2+3/3+2, 3+3; May not repeat 2A or solo jump)

• Double Axel

The Junior Ladies are only required to do a solo 2A and a solo 2/3F. There are no rules regarding what the triples in combination are allowed to be, except that they cannot include the same 2/3F as done for the solo jump. There is also no rule saying “the 3A may not be performed, at all, by juniors ladies in the short program.”

It’s the same exact principle as in 1991 when Tonya Harding did 3A+2T in the short for the required combination, or 1992 (?) when Midori Ito attempted it, or 2010 when Mao Asada did it, all before the senior SP axel jump was allowed to be a triple.

So. 2A, 3F, 3A+3T is a perfectly valid Junior Ladies SP layout, if an extremely ambitious one.

great news for Alyona if she can get a 3A-3T then! this would give her the upper hand in the SP. i had no idea about this (i watch FS, i don't follow the rules honestly)

 

[TruMan]

Juniors (ladies) can't jump 3A in SP. They can not jump or they're not allowed... If it is forbidden for what reasons? Why? Imagine the development of the high jump if juniors were forbidden to jump above 180 cm.

 

[chopinskate]

They can jump it though? They just have to do it in combination. It might discourage skaters from attempting it in the SP, I guess, but it does give them motivation to get a combo, so they can conceivably put one in the FS (and hence gain even more points).

 

[TruMan]

They can jump it though? They just have to do it in combination. It might discourage skaters from attempting it in the SP, I guess, but it does give them motivation to get a combo, so they can conceivably put one in the FS (and hence gain even more points).

If in the 80s, Orser jump was not banned, today we have enjoyed 3Orser with two 540 degree pirouetting .

 

[atsumiri]

2018-19 Singles Short Program Requirements http://www.usfsa.org/content/2018-19 Singles SP Chart.pdf

Short Program, Repetitions: If the same jump is executed twice as a solo jump and as a part of the jump combination, the second execution will not be counted (if this repetition is in a jump combination, only the individual jump which is not according to the above requirements will not be counted).

SOLO JUMP
- For Senior Men when a quadruple jump is executed in a jump combination, a different quadruple jump can be included as a solo jump.
- For Senior & Junior Men and for Senior Ladies, when the triple Axel is executed as an Axel jump, it cannot be repeated again as a solo jump or in the jump combination.
- Solo jumps must be different from the jumps included in the combination.

Jump combination
For Senior Ladies, Junior Men and Ladies the jump combination may consist of the same jump or another double or triple jump. However, for all categories the jumps included must be different than the solo jump

no, I don't think it allowed in combinations either. Because junior ladies just don't allowed to jump 3A in SP.
Seniors ladies can jump 3a as a solo jump. But then they can't repeat it as a part of a combo

 

[cohen-esque]

no, I don't think it allowed in combinations either. Because junior ladies just don't allowed to jump 3A in SP.
Seniors ladies can jump 3a as a solo jump. But then they can't repeat it as a part of a combo

Again, there’s no rule that juniors just aren’t allowed to do it at all, just that they can’t use it to fulfill the “axel jump” requirement. There’s nothing to say “they can’t include a 3A as a triple jump in the combination.”

The senior rule is just an extension of the pre-existing rule about not repeating the solo triple in the combination (or vice versa) which is needed because they are allowed to fulfill the axel requirement with a triple. For example, you can’t do a 3F+3T, 3F, 2A layout because of repeating triples. You therefore also can’t to a 3A+3T, 3A, 2A layout, because of repeating triples. You can’t do a 3A+3T, 3F, 3A layout... because of repeating triples. The SP enforces a variety of skills from skaters.

Same as how juniors next season can’t do 2A, 3F+3T, 3F layouts, for example.

*Interesting the rules still do allow a Senior Lady to do the same or similar layout: 3A+3T, 3F, 2A. (Or something like 2A+3T, 3F, 3A. Or 3A, 3F+3T, 2A. And so on.) But it’d be a complete waste of points in that case.

 

[atsumiri]

okey. I'm lost

hoverer

Interesting the rules allow a Senior Lady to also do the same layout: 3A+3T, 3F, 2A. Or something like 2A+3T, 3F, 3A. Or 3A, 3F+3T, 2A, And so on. But it’d be a complete waste of points in that case.

I don't think it's true.

For Senior Ladies, Junior Men and Ladies the jump combination may consist of the same jump or another double or triple jump. However, for all categories the jumps included must be different than the solo jump

Solo jumps must be different from the jumps included in the combination.

http://www.usfsa.org/content/2018-19 Singles SP Chart.pdf
SENIOR LADIES
- Double or Triple Axel
- Any Triple Jump (May not repeat Triple Axel or either jump in combo)
- Jump Combination Double/Triple or Triple/Triple (May not repeat Axel jump or solo jump performed)

Senior Ladies and Men can only have 3A as a solo jump axel type. No combinations allow

 

[TruMan]

By the way Sherbakova DOI FS BV - 3Lz,3F3T,2A,3S // 3Lz,3F2T2Lo,3Lz3Lo -
5.90+9.50+3.30+4.30 /+/ 6.49+9.13+11.88 = 50.50+4 Els 13.50 = 64.00

 

[Spirals for Miles]

okey. I'm lost

hoverer

I don't think it's true.


http://www.usfsa.org/content/2018-19 Singles SP Chart.pdf
SENIOR LADIES
- Double or Triple Axel
- Any Triple Jump (May not repeat Triple Axel or either jump in combo)
- Jump Combination Double/Triple or Triple/Triple (May not repeat Axel jump or solo jump performed)

Senior Ladies and Men can only have 3A as a solo jump axel type. No combinations allow

May not repeat same revolution axel type jump. So they can do 3A as axel type and 2A+3T in combo, for example, or 2A as axel type and 3A+3T in combo.

 

[cohen-esque]

okey. I'm lost

hoverer

I don't think it's true.


http://www.usfsa.org/content/2018-19 Singles SP Chart.pdf
SENIOR LADIES
- Double or Triple Axel
- Any Triple Jump (May not repeat Triple Axel or either jump in combo)
- Jump Combination Double/Triple or Triple/Triple (May not repeat Axel jump or solo jump performed)

Senior Ladies and Men can only have 3A as a solo jump axel type. No combinations allow

May not repeat axel jump performed: meaning, you cannot repeat the specific jump used to satisfy the Axel requirement. This language predates the inclusion of 3A as being allowed to fulfill that requirement (I think; there was definitely a similar thing about quads that was more explicitly exclusionary)— it refers to the jump itself, not the *type* of jump.

I’m not pulling these examples form thin air: layouts very similar to them have been tried before. Like: A skater can do a 3F+2Lo and a 3Lo, even though that’s doing two loops, because the 2Lo and 3Lo are considered different jumps. Likewise they can do a 3A+2T (required combination) and 2A (required solo Axel jump), because the 3A and 2A are different jumps.

It’s only specifically forbidden to repeat the same jump in the short program, for any jump at all, unless both are in the combination (like a 3T+3T). They’re not allowed to do 2A+3T and 2A, or 3A+2T and 3A, because that’s repeating the same jump.

In none of my examples of allowed are they repeating the same jump. And to my original post, well, the senior-specific language about triple axels isn’t in the junior requirements anyway.

Just a point that if she’s capable of it and ambitious, Kostornaia may want to seize any advantage against Trusovs that she can, and a SP 3A is one such advantage.

 

[TruMan]

Anybody knows why juniors (ladies) are not allowed to jump 3A in SP?

 

[Spirals for Miles]

Because they don't want everyone else to feel threatened

 

[cohen-esque]

Anybody knows why juniors (ladies) are not allowed to jump 3A in SP?

Holdover. SP originated as being very comparative (by execution): everyone did all the same things, and there was even a compulsory jump to be included in combination. There’s too a wide a level at juniors, they can’t allow 3A and be comparative with skaters who do all doubles. 3+3 is already a major concession.

You also see it with the rotating required jump: compare technique on the Lo/F/Lz from everyone (and force them to work on those skills as a set, not focusing on one) and the rotating spin requirements.

Personally I wish the rotating spins were still included in the Senior SP.

 

[TruMan]

Because they don't want everyone else to feel threatened

Is it right to understand that ISU bureaucrats organize international festivals (competitions) of moral terror & psychological pressure on those who do not jump anything harder than 3T+3T?
And why there are no lawsuits from FS victims?

 

[TruMan]

Holdover. SP originated as being very comparative (by execution): everyone did all the same things, and there was even a compulsory jump to be included in combination. There’s too a wide a level at juniors, they can’t allow 3A and be comparative with skaters who do all doubles. 3+3 is already a major concession.
You also see it with the rotating required jump: compare technique on the Lo/F/Lz from everyone (and force them to work on those skills as a set, not focusing on one) and the rotating spin requirements.
Personally I wish the rotating spins were still included in the Senior SP.

Why not to make "very comparative" 3A & any of the Quad?
I'm sure in 5 years 50% of the girls will jump them with their eyes closed.

 

[leoleo]

Because they don't want everyone else to feel threatened

who exactly do you think "they" do not want "everyone" to be threatened by? who is they and who is everyone?

 

[TruMan]

who exactly do you think "they" do not want "everyone" to be threatened by? who is they and who is everyone?

Outgoing U.S. skating president says team's poor Olympic performance scared people - Philip Hersh

"Samuel Auxier: When I took office, my belief was that our ability to compete at the lower levels in terms of fundamentals and development already was declining relative to the other top countries. ... 10 or 12 years ago, somebody got up at Governing Council and said, "We shouldn't allow juveniles to do double axels because not everybody can do them."

PH: They wanted to penalize excellence in order to reach a lowest common denominator."

Would it be correct to say that fearing to demoralize weaker FS opponents "they" frightened the entire nation 15 years later?

 

[atsumiri]

cohen-esque
you won
but
I'm still disagree a little bit))). :think: I need to think about it a little bit more)

ok, technically Junior Ladies can have 3A in SP as a combo.
3A3T 2A 3F or 3A3Lo 2A 3F (It will get +2.1 points for bv if you do it instead of 3lz)

for Senior Ladies more profitable to do 3A, 3Lz3T 3F or 3A 3Lz3Lo 3F than 2A 3A3T 3lz

 

[cohen-esque]

Outgoing U.S. skating president says team's poor Olympic performance scared people - Philip Hersh

"Samuel Auxier: When I took office, my belief was that our ability to compete at the lower levels in terms of fundamentals and development already was declining relative to the other top countries. ... 10 or 12 years ago, somebody got up at Governing Council and said, "We shouldn't allow juveniles to do double axels because not everybody can do them."

PH: They wanted to penalize excellence in order to reach a lowest common denominator."

Would it be correct to say that fearing to demoralize weaker FS opponents "they" frightened the entire nation 15 years later?

Perhaps. But at the juvenile level I think having everyone do all the same things (or mostly so) is a... supportable goal though not the right one. The US had a big problem coinciding with IJS where we had successfully juniors who were cranking out big combos, even 3Lz+3T, 3Lz+3Lo, and 3F+3T which were still so rare at the time... and then none of them went anywhere. The most successful by far was Ashley Wagner and she wasn’t on the radar. It’s because they built up on bad technique and then it collapsed under them.

Not allowing juveniles to do double axels might have encouraged them to take shortcuts, learn them poorly, and continue those habits when learning triples. Enforcing similar standards would be a good way to make sure the skaters with the best technique at early ages weren’t left behind since they may have been the better bets in the future.

Or at least that’s a rationale. History, both in the US and elsewhere, has shown they should have gone for the less conservative approach, and now they’ve veered into allowing 2As and giving bonuses, and for triples as well at some levels, and 3As for boys, and so on, and now we actually have some skaters coming up who can consistently do hard content (at least domestically).

cohen-esque
you won
but
I'm still disagree a little bit))). :think: I need to think about it a little bit more)

ok, technically Junior Ladies can have 3A in SP as a combo.
3A3T 2A 3F or 3A3Lo 2A 3F (It will get +2.1 points for bv if you do it instead of 3lz)

for Senior Ladies more profitable to do 3A, 3Lz3T 3F or 3A 3Lz3Lo 3F than 2A 3A3T 3lz

Yeah in seniors a 3A combination (or solo triple) with a 2A is just pointless. Technically still allowed... just pointless.