Ice dance query around Domnina&Shabalin's meteoric rise

[JonnyCoop]

Well, he was half right. Apparently 5 years later that judge (yes, he was Czech) came up to Carlo Fassi, Curry's coach, and asked Fassi if he remembered him; Fassi said he didn't, and the judge told him he was the judge who "changed his vote" for Curry in '76. Fassi thanked him and the judge said "I just want you to know this is the first time I've been allowed to judge since then."

 

[hockeyfan228]

According to Sonia Bianchetti's book, the Czech judge only voted for Curry because he thought he'd be out of line and called for bias if he put Curry in second, because Curry was so clearly in first. In this scenario, obviously no one sent him the memo that four other judges would.

 

[clairecloutier]

You made a good point, LaRhumba, in questioning how Belbin & Agosto passed Delobel & Schoenfelder and other teams the last few years. Surely, Tanith & Ben's meteoric rise has been quicker than almost anyone else's in ice dance. And I don't think the US Federation has the political pull to account for it, so how did it happen exactly?

Could it be that Belbin & Agosto simply deserve to be in the top 5 in the world and just couldn't be denied (even by ice dance judges)? I do think their footwork, difficulty, and chemistry are among the very best. I am interested to hear what other people think about this.

 

[gkelly]

Surely, Tanith & Ben's meteoric rise has been quicker than almost anyone else's in ice dance. And I don't think the US Federation has the political pull to account for it, so how did it happen exactly?

While I don't think that the US plays politics to fix competitions, I do think that there's a sense that it's more important for the sport in general to have American visible contenders than it is to have medalists from, say, Lithuania or Bulgaria.

Also, if you look at the competitions that really shot them into contention -- jumping into the top 10 at 2003 Worlds (7th, after being 13th the year before), winning 2003 Skate America, placing 2nd ahead of world medalists Denkova/Staviyski in the OD at 2004 Grand Prix final -- those events all took place in their home country. However you want to define home ice advantage, it certainly didn't hurt in terms of getting them into the same league with other potential medalists. So by the next competitions came around, they were now in the judges' consciousness as being in that league.

If you're looking for conspiracy theories, one I've seen floated was that they were being used as buffers between Navka/Kostamarov and Denkova/Staviyski to elevate N/K to the status of clear frontrunners for the 2006 Olympics, and Grushina/Goncharov to the position of medal contenders, on the theory that they wouldn't be a factor at the Olympics themselves because of Belbin's citizenship. I don't buy a huge conspiracy on the part of the whole judging community, but there might have been a few people hoping/trying to make things to work out that way.

It also didn't hurt when other teams at their level made bigger mistakes than they did, e.g., in Torino.

But I think the main thing that helped them was the fact that they entered the ranks of medal contenders exactly at the same time that the new judging system was coming into use. It played to their technical strengths, or they learned to adapt to it better than did the couples five or ten years older, enough to make up for their comparative weaknesses in presentation (in the eyes of the judges in the 04 season, according to the protocols, and I would happen to agree).

Could it be that Belbin & Agosto simply deserve to be in the top 5 in the world and just couldn't be denied (even by ice dance judges)?

I think that's pretty much true. Or, depending on the competition and who was there and skating well, top 6 or 7 (see, e.g., the Torino CD). Just that "belonging in the 2-5 range" (or 1-5 now that Navka/Kostamarov are gone) and sometimes placing as high as 2nd (1st) does not mean "always deserves to be 2nd (1st)."

 

[chuckm]

By the same token, does anyone really believe that DomShabs deserve to be 1st or 2nd? Because they're going to be, whether they have earned it or not.

 

[temperboy28]

I dont think Domnina/Shabalin deserve a top 2 at Worlds this year at all. Well maybe I shouldnt say that so automatic since it is unfair to prejudge where people should automaticaly come each time without letting them skate, but my general feeling of their level vs other teams I dont feel agreeing with that at all. I have not seen them show to me they are not still below the top Bulgarians, Americans, French, and even Canadian dance teams so far this year.

Then again I am not totally sure if they are top 2 gaurantee at Worlds this year. They did lose 2nd to Dubreil/Lauzon at the GP final, and Dubreuil/Lauzon did not even do a clean final dance, and that was in their home Russia, also the Bulgarians favored to win Worlds beat them by huge points total. As disturbingly high as their scores seemed on the GP circuit their big fall in the OD was still enough for them to lose Cup of Russia barely to Belbin/Agosto even in Russia, so even more likely that kind of fall would put them below other top teams when no longer in Russia. Of course probably extremely small chance they have that big a fall again at Worlds.

 

[Spun Silver]

I know this is not the right thread for such a basic question, but could someone give a new and confused ice-dance watcher any idea of why upcoming competition results seem to be fore-ordained in this discipline? Why is it so impossible for Del/Schoe (for ex) to have a surprise win or at least podium finish? Such surprises happen in other disciplines. And how can a sport be respected if it doesn't allow for that?

 

[chuckm]

DelShoes has performed well year after year and always managed to miss the World podium. My personal view is that the French skaters have inherited the Marie Reine LeGougne curse (she was the French judge who blurted out that she had been coerced to place the Russians first at the 2002 Olympics in the Pairs competition). LeGougne and the head of the French federation Gailhaguet were suspended for 3 years. LeGougne has since been reinstated and Gailhaguet replaced, but the ISU never pursued the investigation beyond those suspensions.

Some believe that there was a French-Russian deal involving Pairs and Ice Dance, and LeGougne threw a monkey wrench in the works.

 

[nuge]

LOL! Wolfgang, did you know that a few years ago Oksana was told in no uncertain terms by the Russian Fed to smarten up and get glamorous, and start using peroxide, as she was considered too dowdy to be a Russian Dance Diva!

I heard that before.When they first appeared on the scene a few years back they did look very plain .She has certainly glammed up so much since then. At the moment Maxim looks like Gwendal with brown hair

 

[chuckm]

At the moment Maxim looks like Gwendal with brown hair

Nah. Gwendal is a fairly goodlooking guy and he had great hair. Shabalin's hair looks like a greasy mess and he is no great shakes in the looks department (at least that's what my sister tells me).

 

[La Rhumba]

DelShoes has performed well year after year and always managed to miss the World podium. My personal view is that the French skaters have inherited the Marie Reine LeGougne curse (she was the French judge who blurted out that she had been coerced to place the Russians first at the 2002 Olympics in the Pairs competition). LeGougne and the head of the French federation Gailhaguet were suspended for 3 years. LeGougne has since been reinstated and Gailhaguet replaced, but the ISU never pursued the investigation beyond those suspensions.

Some believe that there was a French-Russian deal involving Pairs and Ice Dance, and LeGougne threw a monkey wrench in the works.

You forgot to mention Sally Stapleford in this. One of the main reasons why GB hasn't been able to win a Euro or Worlds hosting bid since.

 

[La Rhumba]

I know this is not the right thread for such a basic question, but could someone give a new and confused ice-dance watcher any idea of why upcoming competition results seem to be fore-ordained in this discipline? Why is it so impossible for Del/Schoe (for ex) to have a surprise win or at least podium finish? Such surprises happen in other disciplines. And how can a sport be respected if it doesn't allow for that?

It can happen on rare occasions, I'm thinking back to when Drobiazko & Vanagas won the Bronze Medal at Worlds in 2000 and Winkler & Lohse won the World Bronze in 2004 [both times deserved IMO - though in the W&L case some meanspirited people carped about it being a home town decision and G&G being overtaken - I said hurrah!] :agree:

It's a bit of a crass comparison, but when I watch the TV show Strictly Come Dancing - in America I believe it's called Dancing With The Stars - the same controversies exist, ie so called *Dance Experts* from the world of Theatre and Ballroom Dancing often disagree about the merits of technique and performance. For instance, the only Ballroom expert on the Panel [Len Goodman] will spot the missed heel leads in the Fox Trot, and mark accordingly, whereas the Show/Pop Video Choreographer [Bruno Tonioli] will comment on the performance and pizzaz of the presentation, and overlook technical points that would apply in a regular Ballroom competition. All forms of Dance has a technical and artistic aspect to it, and the merits of both are very subjective - you just have to read the critics to see a divergance of opinion on a new production.

The purpose of CoP was to lay down technical requirements in Dance, so all couples could be measured against eachother, apart from in the CD, but no doubt chuck will say that it depends on the Technical Specialist at events as to the Levels of elements called, which then affects the overall score - so it's still open to subjective interpretation, even though guidelines are supposedly laid down.

The aspect of scoring the PCS often bemuses me. Looking back to last season I found it hard to understand why B&A's dull and uninspiring Flamenco FD was given a higher choreography score than the Kerr's innovative and imaginative Scottish FD. IMO the Judges need to have an open mind, that even when comparing the silver medallists with the 10th ranked couple, who has the better ideas with choreo - but then it depends on a Judge's cultural history what their tastes are. The Bulgarian Judge will have seen Flamenco before [it's a safe choice] but do they like Celtic folk dancing and the sound of bagpipes? As I wrote on another thread, even John Zimmerman gave the Kerr's FD in Torino a bad review for Yahoo, so there's no accounting for taste!

In Dance revealing your programs for the season is incredibly daunting, as people are eager to see what you have come up with in comparison to others. So all the ODs can be measured against eachother etc. and therefore if everyone skates clean at an event you can say well so and so's OD is better than such and such's this season. That's why D&L have changed their OD and B&A are changing their FD because they realised that technically and artistically they weren't going to be competitive with those dances this season at Worlds when it counts in comparison to their rivals. In Singles the most important thing is the Jumps, and when they all do the Quads, then the quality of other elements and [it seems to me] choreography and expression come last, but in a tight squeeze, these aspects become the tie-breaker.

Then there is the unending mystery of why certain couples in Dance seem to always be overlooked, when they have super skating skills, innovative programs, etc...that one I can't answer, I'm afraid.
There have been two FDs in the past few seasons that took my breath away with seamless choreography, when I didn't even notice the elements, I just witnessed a whole masterpiece, beautifully interpreted and performed, and they were DelSchoes' Frida and D&L's Somewhere in Time. Both couples also had very good ODs and a high standard of CD that season too, and IMO both couples should've won Gold, but didn't - that, I'm afraid, I can't answer for you. Sorry.

 

[La Rhumba]

To illustrate my points above - here are some video links to youtube of DelSchoes' Season 2004-5 Dances.

http://laetitia.meriguet.free.fr/galerievideos.html

I'd recommend their Charleston OD and Frida FD, the Eurosport commentator is Nicky Slater, European Bronze Medalist in 1983, and World top 5, and his analysis is very interesting, as he felt they should've won the CD too [it was at Euros that season].

They at least got a Bronze Medal there [because DenStav w/d]:

http://www.isufs.org/results/ec2005/CAT004RS.HTM

ETA: Frida was choreographed by Pasquale Camerlengo, a conservative icedancer from the late 80s/early 90s, and I'd have never imagined he was capable.

 

[Spun Silver]

Thanks for the long answer! Frida is exquisite - haven't watched Charleston yet. Now I'm even more annoyed that these guys aren't winning. They are just so stylish, versatile and strong.

I appreciate your saying that both technical and artistic merits are subjective. I haven't been watching skating seriously for long, but I do get the sense that people disagree wildly about even the technical aspects which one might expect to be fairly objective. (Hence all the virtual pies thrown at judges.)

I want to rephrase my question. From the posts I read, I have the impression that ice dancers are expected to climb the international ladder steadily until they "earn" the gold medal... that's what I meant by foreordained. It's as if everyone knows in advance who will win and place. The idea of a competition where there are a *bunch* of top teams and anyone (out of that tiny bunch, lol) could win seems to be missing. I get the impression more of a predictable climb up the rankings ladder - as if seniority determined podium status. Am I mistaken?

 

[La Rhumba]

No you're not, that does apply, and IMO was the reason why D&L did not win Worlds last season, even though they deserved to, but sadly for them it was DenStav's *turn*.

Unlike chuck though, I do believe that Worlds this year is fairly open, in that it really depends who skates the best as to where the medals end up - even Gold - but call me a cock-eyed optimist!

I also still have hope that if DelSchoes pull off a great performance they can make the podium.

 

[Spun Silver]

I hope the optimist is right on both counts!

Just to finish my train of thought: if ice dance does appear to reward seniority in a fairly predictable manner, is it really a sport? And why would people keep watching if they can't expect the best skaters to win?

Thanks for answering my questions. Can't say I'm not still confused, though!

 

[gkelly]

Just to finish my train of thought: if ice dance does appear to reward seniority in a fairly predictable manner, is it really a sport?

I'm not going to get into the question of what defines a sport.

I do think that we've seen a lot more unpredictable results post-1998 with required elements and required fall deductions, and especially post-new judging system, than used to be the case. And there were occasionally upsets in the older days as well.

Never as much as in freestyle, but then the actual performances in dance don't tend to be a volatile -- most of the elements are such that mistakes don't cancel out all or most of their value the way falling on or popping a jump does. So basic skating skills and presentation, which are more subjectively judged, play a bigger role in the judgments. And those things tend not to change hugely from one performance to another and to improve gradually with experience, until injuries, aging, etc., start to hold the skaters back.

And because so much is dependent on judges' perceptions, and people tend to see what we expect to see, judges would continue to see dance teams as being at a certain level until something obvious gets them to change their perceptions.

Even in the old days, it wasn't totally predictable which teams would move up over time and which wouldn't. New teams on the scene might debut a little lower than experienced teams of the same skill level, or a little higher if they're political support was especially strong, and then they would move up only IF they made visible improvements, or the judges could see that they'd been undermarking them in the past, or teams ahead of them made mistakes or showed visible decline. Especially effective choreography could help, and especially poor choices could hurt. And of course most teams in the beginning or middle of their careers were improving their skating. So getting noticed as improved

With the new system, overall impression is less important than in the old, and the details are more important. So there's less room for preconceptions to overshadow the actual performances.

Beginning ice dance fans might have only 2 or 3 criteria to judge which teams they think are better than the others -- e.g., Do I like the way they moved to the music? Did I notice any visible mistakes? -- and miss some of the more important aspects that are actually being judged.

More experienced fans (or inexperienced judges), especially watching live instead of on TV, can take more kinds of details into account, maybe 5 to 10 on a regular basis. Experienced judges might be considering 20 or more criteria to make their decisions, although each will have their own priorities of which are most important.

Fans will still often disagree with the judges. And with each other. And judges disagree with each other -- the results are the consensus of all their opinions. We can often find at least one judge who agrees with us when we don't like the results, or at least one who disagrees and we can use as a poster child for bad udging even when we do like the results. But on those occasions when all the judges do seem to share the same opinion, chances are it's us who are missing something and not the judges.

And why would people keep watching if they can't expect the best skaters to win?

Perhaps

1) Because they enjoy the intrigue of a contest of politics/perception, real or imagined, as much as they would enjoy a contest of technique. Perhaps more -- it's easier for fans who without much technical training to come up with political explanations than with technical explanations for results they don't agree with, and fun to feel morally superior to the judges.

But more important,
2) Because they enjoy the actual skating for its own sake, apart from what the judges think.

 

[Mathman]

Perhaps

1) Because they enjoy the intrigue of a contest of politics/perception, real or imagined, as much as they would enjoy a contest of technique. Perhaps more -- it's easier for fans who without much technical training to come up with political explanations than with technical explanations for results they don't agree with, and fun to feel morally superior to the judges.

But more important,

2) Because they enjoy the actual skating for its own sake, apart from what the judges think.

Two great answers, GKelly! :agree:

With regard to the first, that's the main reason why I hate secret judging. Now I can't have the fun of saying, hey, look at those three judges with Russian-sounding names who voted against my faves! Booooo!

 

[chuckm]

With regard to the first, that's the main reason why I hate secret judging. Now I can't have the fun of saying, hey, look at those three judges with Russian-sounding names who voted against my faves! Booooo!

Yes you can. Look at the Ice Dance protocols for the JGPF. The judges are not secret in the JGP. Judge #1 on the Panel list is #1 on the protocol.

Have fun booing.

 

[La Rhumba]

Is it the case that in America you don't have secret Judging anymore? I heard that was changed for domestic competitions?


I would agree with gkelly's 2 points also. Whilst many performances will make me feel blah there will always be some that are so exciting that I remember why I love the sport, and also leave a lasting impression. In the year of Frida, I found myself feeling annoyed that none of the arts and culture critics had included it in their reviews of the year, as it was my highlight. After all, the theme was a Mexican artist, there was an exhibition of her work in London, and you'd have thought someone would've mentioned DelSchoe's Frida FD somewhere - but no. :sheesh:

Whether DanceSport [as Ballroom is now called] or Ice Dance are sports - I would say they are a combination of Sport & Art, though with the change to required compulsory elements in all portions of the event - even the so called Free Dance - then it certainly is becoming much more of a Sport. I just think it's a huge pity that when a powerful nation in Skating, like Canada, gets upset because Bourne & Kraatz didn't win an Olympic Medal, they start creating waves to get Ice Dance banned from the Olympics. Accept it and move on.

Definitely the required deduction for falling should prevent farces like Grishuk & Platov winning Worlds in 94 after he fell in their FD, and Moniotte & Lavanchy not only skated perfectly, but had a more difficult FD anyway, yet still got only silver. :disapp:

As for previous posters saying that Krylova/Ovsiannikov were the better couple leading up to 1998 Olympics - ITA! However they made a crucial error in their choice of FD [as Platov himself talked about in the recent translated interview]. They chose a Mats Ek style Modern Dance version of Carmen, with hideous upturned feet and ugly facial expressions. I'd have still had them 1st myself - their CD and OD was better - but for the No.2 couple to overturn the No.1 reigning over several years...well, it was a brave though foolhardy choice IMO. hwell: