Article where Mark Lund making controversial comments on Weir, Lysacek

[SeaniBu]

Regardless of opinion of how one should "act." What about -
Is the athlete there for the sport, or is the sport there for the athlete? - I do not have an answer either way that doesn't support both, this is a Q of opinion.

Just my interpretation -
If you like FS you are in the teapot, if you don't you are not. Do you want to be in a teapot with a tempest? Particularly when it appears all the tempest is doing is spilling water out of the teapot.

And what about the Kat example? OK to be flamboyantly gay but not flamboyantly sexy? Am I way off on that? It should be fine for both or prohibited for both.

And Lund AND Wier, both are "out there," how does one dictate which is worse?

My opinion is kind of pointless here IMO, I am wondering more about the opinions voiced and why.

 

[Tonichelle]

To me I don't see Lund being upset for Weir's being flambouyant, I think he's just asking that Weir be true and truthful to not only himself but everyone... I don't remember Lund ever being upset with Rudy Galindo, who is also very 'flambouyant', but then again Rudy has never really been 'in the closet'.

I think most skating fans will take Lunds opinions with a grain of salt. I think everyone has already made their own opinion on Johnny (not his lifestyle, just him as a person and skater). I don't think any real skating fan decides who's a good and who's a bad skater based on sexual 'preference'. Style, maybe, so a 'flambouyant' skater may turn people off, but then again I'm just as turned off to some of Katarina Witt's programs as I am some of Johnny's... it's all about personal taste.

When I was 14 I was bound and determine to only like the 'straight' guys. I was 14, and from a small community who was still very 1950s stereotypical mindset. So it was somewhat expected. Then I did a report on Brian Orser - whom I adore - and everything flew out the window as around the same time he was 'outed'. It was a huge wake up call to how I viewed skaters.

And I agree, if one side of the coin can flaunt their sexuality then the other should be. However I think there should be boundries for both as well.

Flirtation is fun, but you can cross a line into offensiveness. Some stuff should be left to the imagination (Phillipe Candeloro comes to mind with his George of the Jungle nightmare)

 

[chuckm]

If Totmianina/Marinin, Fumie Suguri and Sarah Hughes can skate to "Ave Maria", which is a prayer, then Johnny Weir can portray Jesus in his program. Seems to me Evan Lysacek's SP music is "The Last Temptation of Christ", but there was no criticism of that.

 

[Mathman]

Michael Weiss did a nice, heartfelt program to "The Lord's Prayer," which he dedicated to his Father (I mean, his father).

 

[SeaniBu]

If Totmianina/Marinin, Fumie Suguri and Sarah Hughes can skate to "Ave Maria", which is a prayer, then Johnny Weir can portray Jesus in his program. Seems to me Evan Lysacek's SP music is "The Last Temptation of Christ", but there was no criticism of that.

It was not the music but the "portrayal" aspect that is intriguing / controversial. Kat Witt's music was not the issue, it was what she was portraying via her costume....that is my impression on that anyway.

 

[Tonichelle]

If Totmianina/Marinin, Fumie Suguri and Sarah Hughes can skate to "Ave Maria", which is a prayer, then Johnny Weir can portray Jesus in his program. Seems to me Evan Lysacek's SP music is "The Last Temptation of Christ", but there was no criticism of that.

The quote seemed to refer to Johnny's costume, which I agree doesn't really scream 'Jesus Christ' to me... I don't think Evan's actually trying to 'be Christ' in his SP...

 

[Mathman]

Sean, I think you make two interesting points. For what it's worth, here is my opinion.

1. On the question of whether Johnny's off-ice behavior is designed to promote Johnny Weir rather than to bring positive publicity to the sport of figure skating, IMHO that's a non-issue. All publicity is good publicity. If someone turns on the TV just to see what all the fuss is about, everybody wins.

(As long as he doesn't act like a jerk like Bode Miller, which made me vow never to watch skiing again.)

2. On the question of costumes and performances that are too sexy for the room, I think the powers that be in figure skating quite correctly want to guard the image of the sport as "wholesome family entertainment." So, for instance, rules against excessive nudity, etc., don't bother me.

To me that's quite different from a flamboyantly artsy "Camille-and-feathers" outfit. That doesn't say gay sex, it says, "whooty-toot-toot!"

 

[attyfan]

IIRC, Lund said that "You cannot compare yourself to the Lord's savior as a figure skater" -- he didn't say that skaters shouldn't use religiously-themed music and he didn't say that skaters shouldn't do religiously-themed programs. There is a big difference -- Lobacheva and Averbukh did a religously themed program (to "Jesus Christ Superstar") without comparing themselves to Jesus. It is immoral (IMO) for Lund to accuse Johnny of conduct that is likely to offend the devout (comparing himself) when all he did was choose a religious theme.

 

[attyfan]

... Seems to me Evan Lysacek's SP music is "The Last Temptation of Christ", but there was no criticism of that.

Didn't MK also use the same SP music that Evan is using now? If so, was she (a) going above herself by "comparing herself" or (b) forcing political correctness down everybody's throat (an Asian, female Christ?)

 

[chuckm]

Lund is not Christian, so I don't see why he would be offended by Johnny Weir skating a program about Jesus Christ.

 

[Mathman]

I knew there was a reason why we all worship Michelle!

(Actually, the historical Jesus was Asian. )

 

[clairecloutier]

Lund is a shameless self-promoter, IMO. He probably made those remarks about Johnny mainly because he knew it would get him publicity.

I think it's ridiculous that, in the year 2007, male skaters are still being told they need to look "masculine" and strong on the ice. Why on earth is Lund perpetuating these sexist stereotypes? Especially considering he's gay himself. I just don't get it.

I, for one, am glad that Johnny does not feel the need to dress up in a pseudo-military uniform or a muscle shirt, or parade a girlfriend/wife around at every opportunity, as certain other male skaters have done, just in order to prove something to people.

 

[ae9177]

I really don't want this drama to eventually turn into something as nasty as Trump vs Rossie battle. The sad truth is that here's no winner in this battle, everybody was deeply hurt including USFSA and Evan, who have nothing to do with the show at all but still got lots of bitchy attack and hatred.

It's time to move on. Let's hope Evan and Johnny both get healthy and do their best at Nationals, may the best man win!

 

[SeaniBu]

Thanks MM.

1. On the question of whether Johnny's off-ice behavior is designed to promote Johnny Weir rather than to bring positive publicity to the sport of figure skating, IMHO that's a non-issue. All publicity is good publicity. If someone turns on the TV just to see what all the fuss is about, everybody wins.
(As long as he doesn't act like a jerk like Bode Miller, which made me vow never to watch skiing again.)

That would assume they care about what all the fuss is about, and as in case of the Bode example, others might feel that way about Wier just as we feel about Bode.

To me that's quite different from a flamboyantly artsy "Camille-and-feathers" outfit. That doesn't say gay sex, it says, "whooty-toot-toot!"

ITA, Yes that is our take on family values, but some might not be inclined to agree.

This is all speculation via SeaniBu -
FS popularity grew with the introduction of pretty women (one in particular SH) and it would appear that woman were / are the main focus of FS. As men have become more "flamboyant" HAS FS popularity declined? It would suggest for a second that is NOT the only reason - and I am still just guessing - but "torpedoes get fired at sinking ships / another nail in the coffin / etc..." - most Men do not enjoy watching men acting like "the typical stereotype girls" UNLESS it is to make fun of. Hence the main reason IMO that men scramble to come up with "seemly reasonable excuses" to cover up their unreasonable insecurities and homophobic attitudes.

Sorry if I drug this OT but I truly believe that MK leaving or anything of that likes has nothing to do with the decline of popularity. The "Judging scandal" was "publicity" ( " All publicity is good publicity.") not good, and did that get viewers or did it ....?

On Topic, Lund has a point IMO. He just approached it with reproach. I don't believe Johnny types are Killing the sport per say, but it is not helping, not even in the gay community. It just makes for content that people can make fun of or disapprove of. As silly as that sounds to fans of FS, those statistic seem to be adding up.

may the best man win!

OK Howey Honestly meant in jest.

 

[waxel]

Male skaters in glittery costumes are NOT the cause of a decline in the viewership of figure skating. To suggest as much is preposterous. Has the sport EVER seriously gone after the same demographic as football or NASCAR???

 

[SeaniBu]

Now wasn't Johnny saying that there were points in his prog that were depictions of the life of Jesus, or he was a carpenter as Jesus was, he was acting out parts of the passion that is about Jesus...???? I cannot remember the quote or conversation / interview (it was brought up here), but I am sure I remember hearing / reading something that CLEARLY said that he was portraying Jesus to some extent. And no matter how "out of whack" Lund may be, "give the devil his due," he based that comment on something.

Just like Rosie or Donald, they may have said something stupid, worded it inappropriately, but that does not mean they should be discounted. It is very much like the topic at hand. The content of great skating might be there, but it is getting masked by "other things" that detract from the content.

 

[SeaniBu]

Male skaters in glittery costumes are NOT the cause of a decline in the viewership of figure skating. To suggest as much is preposterous. Has the sport EVER seriously gone after the same demographic as football or NASCAR???

I don't believe Johnny types are Killing the sport per say, but it is not helping, not even in the gay community. It just makes for content that people can make fun of or disapprove of. As silly as that sounds to fans of FS, those statistic seem to be adding up.

I don't think it is preposterous at all. If it is then to suggest that the intention is to go after another sport specifically (opposed to just looking more like a sport and less like cabaret) is equally as preposterous IMO.

IMO

Lund is a shameless self-promoter, IMO. He probably made those remarks about Johnny mainly because he knew it would get him publicity.

Couldn't Johnny be considered the same thing? And to the point that I agree Lund might be - it takes one to know one. Childish saying I know but you get the point. Also the things people hate most in this world are often the things they hate most about themselves.

I think it's ridiculous that, in the year 2007, male skaters are still being told they need to look "masculine" and strong on the ice.

And Ladies need to ware pre approved clothing attire?
To me that is a double standard.

I, for one, am glad that Johnny does not feel the need to dress up in a pseudo-military uniform or a muscle shirt, or parade a girlfriend/wife around at every opportunity, as certain other male skaters have done, just in order to prove something to people.

ITA, but that is the question, how many "you and me" are there out there that like or don't care?

And over exaggerating is not showing that it is understood, there should be a "line." Acceptable to all, not just the extremely open minded but to the narrow too. "If you shut them out from the very start they will never even want in the door."

Would it hurt the sport to have pre approved attire for men just as the Ladies? Did the Kat Witt rule hurt the sport?

 

[Mathman]

FS popularity grew with the introduction of pretty women (one in particular SH) and it would appear that woman were / are the main focus of FS. As men have become more "flamboyant" HAS FS popularity declined?

Sean, I think you would enjoy reading Ellyn Kestnbaum's book, Culture on Ice. She makes the following provocative point.

Figure skating used to be a men only sport. It was quite scandalous when Marge Syers entered the World Championship in 1902. The ISU scoured the rule book in shock that no one had bothered to mention that only men could participate -- that was so obvious they didn't have a rule forbidding it.

(Sort of like in the movie Babe the Pig, where they did not have any rule that said an animal entered in the sheepherding contest had to be a dog.)

So Syers skated and won silver. (Afterward the gold medalist, Ulrich Salchow, took off his medal and gave it to her, believing that Syers should have won first prize.)

Anyway, according to Kestnbaum (this is her PhD thesis in Theater at the University of Wisconsin), what "feminized" skating was the gradual demise of figures and the rise of free skating.

Tracing school figures is "manly" because it is Man conquering Nature by carving patterns of man's devising into the virgin ice. (Figures started in the 19th century when young (male) show-offs, trying to impress their girl friends, would carve their initials into the ice surface with their manly blades.)

Free skating on the other hand -- that's "feminine" because the point is that the pretty skater is displaying her charms for the approval of the (male, rich and powerful) audience -- and by the way, raise that leg a little higher, sweet stuff.

So therefore when male skaters display their charms for the approval of the audience, they are assuming the societal role of the subservient female.

(Hey, don't blame me -- this is the post-neofeminist view.)

Anyway, that is why no matter how macho our guys may strut across the ice, male skating -- like all performance art -- is basically a gay activity.

(Of course if you strut across the ice with a hockey stick and bash the other guy in the mouth, that's a whole 'nother story.) :frown2:

 

[blue dog]

Johnny Weir is 22 years old. He does not deserve this kind of vitriol.

Here is the dispicable Mark Lund's response.

Statement from Mark Lund:

"My credentials in the sport and art of figure skating are well known, as is my orientation as an out gay man. I stand by my statement "overly out without being out" 100%. I say to Mr. Weir, "You enjoy being outspoken and a free spirit. You have said frequently that you have been brought up to speak your mind. However, you refuse to support the very community that paved the way for you." I say to all those that believe my comments about Mr. Weir were phobic to take a step back and realize the beliefs you are actually expressing. Mr. Weir is an individual who enjoys all the rights of the gay community without coming out to support the gay community. Now who is the hypocrite here? Most certainly not me.

."

I really hate it when people speak for me. As a gay man myself, I don't like the fact that Mr Lund (whom, I think, has never been to a world championships himself) is choosing to speak for me by saying that the gay community paved the way for him. Unless the panel of judges judging the nationals that Johnny won were all-gay, then maybe he has a case, but at this point, all members of the gay community did who know about Johnny Weir (yes, there are gays who don't watch figure skating) was watch when he's skating, and decide whether they like him or not.

Mark is just being, as they say, a "hater." Obviously, he wasn't nearly as good in skating as Johnny (and believe me, I'm not even a Johnny fan--I prefer Jeff).

Just as there aren't excuses for homophobes in the straight community, there certainly aren't any for homophobes in the gay community.

But, back on topic--someone get these people away from any broadcast booth in the future. It was bad enough we had KKKristine Brennan (who smiled while she asked Michelle how she felt about Angela's mom's death!).

I also don't see the comparisons to Jesus Christ in his LP. I think both Mark and Nancy should just shut up and mail a check to Tonya Harding (without whom neither would've had a career--ooh time for a new thread!).

 

[isk82]

I am so not for gay rights or anything like that, but there is no one right now who's skating I enjoy watching more than Johnny Weir's. Even without jumps, his lines are beautiful, his carriage exquisite (I feel like Peggy Fleming). I could care less if he is gay or not. I LOVE his SKATING. I think Mark Lund sounds like an insecure jerk - what does he care whether someone else "comes out" or not. I don't care if my straight neighbor holds up a sign saying she is straight. It's all just so dumb. People are people.