2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating | Page 536 | Golden Skate

2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

I agree. He is so annoying when he says Tatiana Nikolaevna when he is referring to Tarasova. Just say her damn last name you pretentious Russian wannabe!

I don't think it's pretentious. It's just something he learned from that culture and then it feels weird to not do it anymore, even if you revert back to your native language.
When Dutch people talked about George W Bush, they would often use 'double u' as well, instead of 'Wee'. It would sound weird to suddenly call him George Wee Bush, after hearing it so many times in the way that it was pronounced in English.
 
Nah, in russian, her last name is "Медведева" which is pronounced Medvedeva. There are no ys in the middle.
If she was "Медведьева", then it would be Medvedyeva.

Yes, yes, I know. I learned Russian. I couldn't explain the "дь" on other way..

This is i say it is a mystery... The "Yevgenia is closer to ogirinal pronunciation" was my first hypothesis too... But then they would call Tuktamysheva Yelizaveta, because that is how its pronounced.

Yes, you are right. Maybe because there is Eliza name ( Eliza Doolittle :biggrin:) in English and they think that is the pronunciation of the Russian name, too. Interesting but I'm also saying Yevgeniya and Elizaveta..Those pronunciations come to my mouth..more easier to say
 
That is a very interesting concept, thank you, i was not familiar with it.
Both in Russia and in Brazil, names attached to a person have no alternative spellings. If your name is spelled in a specific way, any other spelling is considered a mistake. So for example my name is spelled Tatyana, and if they write it as Tatjana or Tatiana, it will be considered wrong. And if they spell Tatjana Flade as Tatiana or Tatyana, that also will be considered wrong. Aljona Savchenko will be Aljona, not Aliona or Alena. And so on.

In the US, there are a variety of accepted transliteration alphabets. You can see how they compare here; speaking personally, as someone of Slavic heritage, my surname has been rendered in a variety of ways, to the point that only two constants and a vowel are constant between the French and more standard Romanization efforts. As for Evgenia/Yevgenia, however, I am not a journalist, but generally you would expect to see a publication (and journalist) stick to one transliteration alphabet, except in the case of a person requesting or otherwise making it clear that they prefer their name be rendered differently. So why NBC uses Yevgenia but not Yelizaveta is something I can’t answer, and looks like a lack of editorial direction, as I would expect a copy-editor to catch that kind of inconsistency. However, it’s also very likely that neither the author nor anyone whose responsible for publication has much familiarity with Russian, so the fact that the transliteration isn’t consistent might not have been noticed. I can’t say much more than that.

The way the names are transliterated is not an error made in disrespect or a spelling error, however — that’s an issue related to Romanization. Now, if you tell me you prefer your name to be Romanized “Tatyana,” even if the transliteration alphabet suggests “Tatiana,” then there’s a question of rudeness, as your preference should be honored. Yuna had issues with this (Yuna Kim, Kim Yuna, Yu-na Kim, etc.), which was recapped here; ultimately, the Associated Press (AP) went with Yuna Kim at her request. So in instances in which there’s no stated preference, a publication will default to its rules regarding transliteration of a given language, but if there’s an expressed preference, that’s prioritized. Absent Medvedeva making it clear how she would like her name Romanized, we don’t actually know — the ISU rendering may not be her preference.

It’s a giant “Who knows?” but I can attest that Cyrillic is nowhere near the migraine that are known as the Semitic languages! (I used to speak and read a bit of Russian, as well as both an Arabic dialect and Modern Standard... and some Hebrew and Yiddish. It can be worse. Trust me, it can definitely be worse.)
 
The Russian oral posture can be very difficult for Americans, so I can see why they thought tacking the 'Y' onto Evgenia in their transliterations might be helpful, but yeah, it is very weird that they don't then do the same for Elizaveta or Elena, which are both supposed to have that "yeh" sound at the beginning.

Not to bring hockey into this, but I live in a part of the US where Russian player Evgeni Malkin is very popular, and he is often styled as Yevgeny. I still hear people calling him Ev-JEN-ee on a regular basis though, so I'm not sure NBC is actually helping [emoji58]
 
Nah, in russian, her last name is "Медведева" which is pronounced Medvedeva. There are no ys in the middle.
If she was "Медведьева", then it would be Medvedyeva.

This is i say it is a mystery... The "Yevgenia is closer to ogirinal pronunciation" was my first hypothesis too... But then they would call Tuktamysheva Yelizaveta, because that is how its pronounced.

As for source, @TGEE: her twitter also states Evgenia, so i'm fairly sure its official.
I suspect your right that Evgenia is what she wants to call herself in Latin letters.

It looks it's using the passport transliteration protocol, as most skaters choose to do.

Like you, I prefer to respect the version the person chooses....

But neither the ISU nor the IIHF do that.

The ISU creates it's own Latin spellings for Russians who represent other countries, and doesn't care if they don't match identity documents. So skaters get invitations with names that don't match their passports.

And the International Ice Hockey Federation actually enforces spelling and public pronunciation its way, regardless of what its athletes want or their identity documents say. (Yevgeni Malkin was actually one of those who protested the old Evgeny spelling.)

Which is why I suspected NBC has adopted the IIHF protocol.

But you are correct that they should use Yelizaveta too...but unlike Yevgeni and Medvedev, it's not an example provided in the IIHF transcription table. So, the copy editor may not have applied the protocol correctly.

Here's the IIHF news release on new rules for Russian names from 2011, with the pdf table attached.

http://webarchive.iihf.com/home-of-...]=5334&cHash=f7f47fb38db438e58476027d108193e4

(As an aside, I'd also like to point out that politeness notwithstanding, Russians in Russia aren't always consistent or sensitive to the Latin spellings: we've been in a situation in Russia where authorities insisted on a bizarre Cyrillic version of one family member's name -- which was a latinized legal version of a Cyrillic baptismal name in the first place, while another family member got into difficulty because some authorities decided the Cyrillic version of a name was declinable and others said it was not. 🤦)
 
So in instances in which there’s no stated preference, a publication will default to its rules regarding transliteration of a given language, but if there’s an expressed preference, that’s prioritized. Absent Medvedeva making it clear how she would like her name Romanized, we don’t actually know — the ISU rendering may not be her preference.
You make a good point, but based on the fact that Zhenya always seems to spell it Evgenia, I think we can pretty safely assume she prefers her name without the y.

That being said, as annoying as it is to many of us, it’s not really that big of deal. As far as I know she’s never spoken out against it and I think that NBC is probably just trying to helpful to American viewers.
 
I agree. He is so annoying when he says Tatiana Nikolaevna when he is referring to Tarasova. Just say her damn last name you pretentious Russian wannabe!

Actually, she is Tatyana Anatolyevna Tarasova. Not "Nikolaevna".

Let me stand up for Johnny. In Russia, a teacher, coach (or just an older person) is called by name and patronymic. It is almost like a reflex, call using only name is impossible for yourself (or you are super-rude and marginal). Russian Wikipedia says: "In addition, from 2003 to 2005, Weir took consultations every summer from Russian coach Tatyana Tarasova, visiting her at the Center for Figure Skating (Eng. International Skating Center of Connecticut) in Simsbury, Connecticut.". So, Johnny, perhaps, perceives her as his former coach (at some point) and therefore calls her Tatyana Anatolyevna.

To be honest, I am alarmed by such a negative reaction to the respectful attitude of Johnny towards Russian culture. For example, I would be fine if someone russian commentator called some Japanese coach using the prefix "-san" to show him respect. Especially if he had a special relationship with this coach.
 
By the way, this thread never disappoints when it comes to providing the most random off topic information.

This is true but at least this time it’s educational.

To get the thread back on track, we have interesting events coming up. Alina in Helsinki and the junior girls + Anna P competing. I wonder if Alena will try the triple axel.
 
Actually, she is Tatyana Anatolyevna Tarasova. Not "Nikolaevna".

Let me stand up for Johnny. In Russia, a teacher, coach (or just an older person) is called by name and patronymic. It is almost like a reflex, call using only name is impossible for yourself (or you are super-rude and marginal). Russian Wikipedia says: "In addition, from 2003 to 2005, Weir took consultations every summer from Russian coach Tatyana Tarasova, visiting her at the Center for Figure Skating (Eng. International Skating Center of Connecticut) in Simsbury, Connecticut.". So, Johnny, perhaps, perceives her as his former coach (at some point) and therefore calls her Tatyana Anatolyevna.

To be honest, I am alarmed by such a negative reaction to the respectful attitude of Johnny towards Russian culture. For example, I would be fine if someone russian commentator called some Japanese coach using the prefix "-san" to show him respect. Especially if he had a special relationship with this coach.

I believe Mr. Nicks is referred to as "Mr. Nicks" by anyone he ever has coached (even in the distant past) and by others too, because he is so respected. Same idea. :agree:

I have some problems with Weir's commentary, but his usage of the patronymic is not one of them.
 
I can see both sides with Johnny Weir’s pronunciation:

1. The positive side: he is being respectful, or he is saying what comes naturally to him.:)

2. The negative side: he is being pretentious and “showing off”:no:

The “showing off” part has little to do with respecting another culture. For example, almost all English speakers mispronounce Cicero. The word is pronounced in Latin with hard c’s (trust me;)). Yet the accepted pronunciation in English is with soft c’s, and for me to go around, other than in select linguistic circles, saying “Ki-kah-ro” would be pretentious.

Unfortunately no figure skater is well known enough in America to have an accepted pronunciation. Or spelling for that matter:biggrin:. So is it pretentious or is it respect?

Who knows:confused2:
 
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I can see both sides with Johnny Weir’s pronunciation:

1. The positive side: he is being respectful, or he is saying what comes naturally to him.:)

2. The negative side: he is being pretentious and “showing off”:no:

The “showing off” part has little to do with respecting another culture. For example, almost all English speakers mispronounce Cicero. The word is pronounced in Latin with hard c’s (trust me;)). Yet the accepted pronunciation in English is with soft c’s, and for me to go around, other than in select linguistic circles, saying “Ki-kah-ro” would be pretentious.

Unfortunately no figure skater is well known enough in America to have an accepted pronunciation. Or spelling for that matter:biggrin:. So is it pretentious or is it respect?

Who knows:confused2:

Latin is a dead language, though, so people have generally not gotten used to speaking it in normal conversation. With a language like Russian this is possible, so it becomes normal to say something a certain way. It then becomes weird to not say it in that way, even if you go back to your own language.
 
(As an aside, I'd also like to point out that politeness notwithstanding, Russians in Russia aren't always consistent or sensitive to the Latin spellings: we've been in a situation in Russia where authorities insisted on a bizarre Cyrillic version of one family member's name -- which was a latinized legal version of a Cyrillic baptismal name in the first place, while another family member got into difficulty because some authorities decided the Cyrillic version of a name was declinable and others said it was not. ��)

There are several translation systems, and the official ones change over the years.
For example, there was a time when your names would be transliterated in a french (???) fashion, so you would get a lot of letters in your name that you didnt need.
When I got my passport, my name was latinized as Tatyana (as the rules then required them to), but under current rules, it is Tatiana, so every time i get a passport, I need to bring documents (for example my previous passport) confirming my name should be spelled Tatyana. Also, as far as i know, doing this is my responsibility - the russian embassy openly writes on their website that if i want some transliteration which is not the official one, i need to bring documents.
This works both ways. For example, there was a period of time, when my name would be transliterated back to russian as "Татиана" and I had to keep an eye and show them my passport every time so there is no spelling conflict later.

Overall, I kind of wish people would come up with some UNIQUE transliteration system and stick to it =D
Would make our life so much easier if Aljona, Aliona, Alyona and Alena would be spelled the same =D
 
Latin is a dead language, though, so people have generally not gotten used to speaking it in normal conversation. With a language like Russian this is possible, so it becomes normal to say something a certain way. It then becomes weird to not say it in that way, even if you go back to your own language.

As a Latin scholar, graduation season is a special kind of torture, as cum laude is butchered. I think the better example is “common Latin phrases,” such as cum laude, ad hoc, etc., which are frequently mispronounced. Or the occasional French idiom ( je ne sais quoi). You know, something where correcting someone else’s bad pronunciation could come off as snobbish and rude, while the proper pronunciation is a bit ostentatious and showy.
 
Latin is a dead language, though, so people have generally not gotten used to speaking it in normal conversation. With a language like Russian this is possible, so it becomes normal to say something a certain way. It then becomes weird to not say it in that way, even if you go back to your own language.

Then let me use a living language. I am an Anglophone, but my French today remains pretty good (I hope:pray: I was semi fluent at one point, but alas, no more). I do not say Brétagne among English speakers, no matter how natural that name feels to me rather than Brittany. It would seem pretentious to me, even if I have know French for almost 50 years now.

But that is me, and I do not import my feelings onto Johnny. That is why I said “who knows”;)
 
Actually, she is Tatyana Anatolyevna Tarasova. Not "Nikolaevna".

Let me stand up for Johnny. In Russia, a teacher, coach (or just an older person) is called by name and patronymic. It is almost like a reflex, call using only name is impossible for yourself (or you are super-rude and marginal). Russian Wikipedia says: "In addition, from 2003 to 2005, Weir took consultations every summer from Russian coach Tatyana Tarasova, visiting her at the Center for Figure Skating (Eng. International Skating Center of Connecticut) in Simsbury, Connecticut.". So, Johnny, perhaps, perceives her as his former coach (at some point) and therefore calls her Tatyana Anatolyevna.

To be honest, I am alarmed by such a negative reaction to the respectful attitude of Johnny towards Russian culture. For example, I would be fine if someone russian commentator called some Japanese coach using the prefix "-san" to show him respect. Especially if he had a special relationship with this coach.

I think that has more to do with the way Johnny comes off as a commentator/representative of the sport in the US as pretentious and catty; I think if it were someone other than Johnny or his counterpart Tara reactions would be different.


I have to say reading this board tonight has been fascinating.
 
I see no issues with using patronymic when talking about russian people. It is nice and respectful.
There are just 1 potential problem: it may be confusing for people unfamiliar with Russian culture and language. This is a common issue for people who are reading russian literature, for example, because of the used name combos. It could make things hard to understand and follow. Only because of this i would advise a commentator not to, people may get confused.
 
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