2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

[Seruleane]

There is a lot to unpack. I decided to step away for a day from the Zhenya topic to give a bit of thought on it.

Part of me thinks the biggest disadvantage Zhenya has put herself in is distancing herself from the local Russian competitions. We just can’t offer the level of competitions and events here in North America. I’ve long said that these events are a huge advantage that our skaters just don’t have. It would have been nice to see her in some Cup of Russia events. In that regard I think it would have been a huge benefit to have chosen a local coach like Plushenko or Mishin or even Turenko. Angelina Turenko has great programs year after year and would have Really helped Zhenya spread her wings. Coaching style and preferences aside I think the proximity and advantage of so many smaller events in Europe could have helped her to regain or maintain her competitive strength. Then again who would have expected her to regress to the point where it was actually so necessary. Her biggest strength had always been her performance execution.

There really have been some decisions made that are up for debate. Regardless of anything we say though the results do and will speak for themselves so there is no point in taking these discussions too seriously. Sometimes I think some folks here are just feuding regardless of the topic which is making it seem even more dramatic than it actually is. As a fan of the sport I’ve always respected and supported Zhenya. She’s great for it and she brought in a bunch of great fans too. It says a lot about her!

Serious question...has Brian ever completely changed a skater so much? Part of me wishes his team had embraced a bit more of what made her a two time World Champion instead of throwing seemingly everything that made her so great out the window. I’ve said it before but I miss her light and fast complex footwork and am less than impressed by the leg kicks and shoulder shimmies. It’s not just her though but that is in general for all skaters I just hope there is enough time to see this thing thru. I have no doubt she has the ability but if she falls too far behind her funding may be reduced and I’m not sure she has the money to afford the training on her own or if it is even a financially viable option to make.

One more question: Has Brian commented yet? Is he owning this and deflecting the criticism from his student? I haven’t seen anything from him but I’ve been intentionally dealing with this in moderation.

Guilty Wish: I’d love to see her and Sima training together again

Probably one of the most reasonable critiques I've seen of the whole situation. Thank you Sam :agree:

 

[Scott512]

My personal oppinion on the "tyranny" is that sometimes people mistake care for opression, and freedom for indifference.
Zhenya spent 11 years with Eteri, and was her darling. This is almost undebatable - we have all seen it in K&C, we all remember people bashing Eteri for showing blatant favoritism towards Zhenya, even when Alina was winning. Eteri clearly cared.

So when Zhenya mentions how now she can make decisions about programs, music and everything 50-50 with BOrser himself, it reminds me of many teenagers and young adults I know and their parents. Zhenya complains she was not listened enough, but should she? So far, at least her program choices seem to be very debatable, and a worse vehicle for her than what Eteri's team was chosing for her. I feel that sometimes people forget that figure skaters are made by a team, and not necessarely great artists with amazing taste and deep understanding of beauty by themselves. Some are, but that is not a rule. The fact that one can skate beautifully, for instance, does not mean the same person can pick a tasty outfit. Keep in mind that those kids spend literally all of their time skating, and not developing other skills. And that figure skaters are people, and people are weird - take Kostner who, according to a costume designer who working with her, wears leotards because she believes that her body shape is a complicated one for dresses.

Brilliant post. On point too.

 

[NAOTMAA]

Her Olympic programs were a wonderful progression into more mature and adult like skating. The transition artistically from previous seasons was very smooth. It's too bad they couldn't have stuck with that since she really seem to excel at the lyrical and light drama stuff. And there was definitely still room to grow with that as she was only just beginning.

I think retooling jumps and shifting her style so much at once was a bad move. Way too much at once combined with a new coach and training atmosphere.

 

[Lunalovesskating]

Her Olympic programs were a wonderful progression into more mature and adult like skating. The transition artistically from previous seasons was very smooth. It's too bad they couldn't have stuck with that since she really seem to excel at the lyrical and light drama stuff. And there was definitely still room to grow with that as she was only just beginning.

I think retooling jumps and shifting her style so much at once was a bad move. Way too much at once combined with a new coach and training atmosphere.

She wanted to do these new programs especially a tango, to try something new and to experiment to maybe find a new style for her. Maybe next season they will go back to her previous type of programs or try to transition slower into this new type of style e e.g. do one program in her old style and one in a new style. I mean even Yuna Kim eased herself into new type programs, she always skated to slow classical type of music as a junior and then e.g. they tried El Tango de Roxanne as she turned to senior, which was new to her and a preparation for Danse Macabre which she skated to two years later, to first try out if the style fits her before she callenges herself with something as unique as DM.

 

[Scott512]

There is a lot to unpack. I decided to step away for a day from the Zhenya topic to give a bit of thought on it.

Part of me thinks the biggest disadvantage Zhenya has put herself in is distancing herself from the local Russian competitions. We just can’t offer the level of competitions and events here in North America. I’ve long said that these events are a huge advantage that our skaters just don’t have. It would have been nice to see her in some Cup of Russia events. In that regard I think it would have been a huge benefit to have chosen a local coach like Plushenko or Mishin or even Turenko. Angelina Turenko has great programs year after year and would have Really helped Zhenya spread her wings. Coaching style and preferences aside I think the proximity and advantage of so many smaller events in Europe could have helped her to regain or maintain her competitive strength. Then again who would have expected her to regress to the point where it was actually so necessary. Her biggest strength had always been her performance execution.

There really have been some decisions made that are up for debate. Regardless of anything we say though the results do and will speak for themselves so there is no point in taking these discussions too seriously. Sometimes I think some folks here are just feuding regardless of the topic which is making it seem even more dramatic than it actually is. As a fan of the sport I’ve always respected and supported Zhenya. She’s great for it and she brought in a bunch of great fans too. It says a lot about her!

Serious question...has Brian ever completely changed a skater so much? Part of me wishes his team had embraced a bit more of what made her a two time World Champion instead of throwing seemingly everything that made her so great out the window. I’ve said it before but I miss her light and fast complex footwork and am less than impressed by the leg kicks and shoulder shimmies. It’s not just her though but that is in general for all skaters I just hope there is enough time to see this thing thru. I have no doubt she has the ability but if she falls too far behind her funding may be reduced and I’m not sure she has the money to afford the training on her own or if it is even a financially viable option to make.

One more question: Has Brian commented yet? Is he owning this and deflecting the criticism from his student? I haven’t seen anything from him but I’ve been intentionally dealing with this in moderation.

Guilty Wish: I’d love to see her and Sima training together again

You made tremendous points and it was probably a good decision for you to stay away for a day. It was kind of crazy yesterday.

 

[DenissVFan]

Any updates on Daria Panenkova's health? She's still scheduled to compete in Tallin Trophy.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

Could someone tell me why Nastya Kostyuk's last spin in this skate was invalidated? it was originally a level 1 - I saw her mistake but why does that make it invalidated? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsFG-4CtAJU

Also seeing her upset is so sad
poor Nastya :sad4:

 

[bobbob]

Yes.

Disagreed. Her basics are better, for instance. I agree on spins, though.

What do people mean when they say Evgenia's "basics" are better? I feel like that is a term used when nothing concrete can be stated. Basic skating skills? She definitely does not have as good control of her glide, most evidenced by her step sequence. Transitions...no much less complex ones she does now. Basic jump technique? No, she still does wrong edge and prerotates as before, using toe pick assistance, etc. Except she is far less consistent and has no control over the landing and size of her jumps. The only thing I can think of is some of the jumps are bigger but that is not necessarily better technique if she has no control over the landing. Perhaps Brian has a long term plan, but as of now, no big aspect of Evgenia's skating is better than before, I think that is quite obvious.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

What do people mean when they say Evgenia's "basics" are better? I feel like that is a term used when nothing concrete can be stated. Basic skating skills? She definitely does not have as good control of her glide, most evidenced by her step sequence. Transitions...no much less complex ones she does now. Basic jump technique? No, she still does wrong edge and prerotates as before, using toe pick assistance, etc. Except she is far less consistent and has no control over the landing and size of her jumps. The only thing I can think of is some of the jumps are bigger but that is not necessarily better technique if she has no control over the landing. Perhaps Brian has a long term plan, but as of now, no big aspect of Evgenia's skating is better than before, I think that is quite obvious.

Her basics are more simple now and some people prefer that. Think of the little steps in between movements and spins. She’s going for less difficulty and much more focus on gliding. Better is subjective in this instance. IMO her programs have shifted from using figure skating steps and an athletic difficulty of her programs to a more theatrical based approach. She has a way to go to stand out going this route IMO.

Think Mariah Bell. Look at how Anastasiia Gubanova uses her SS to control her speed in relation to the music. Deep edges with a purpose to express as opposed to excite. Both are great and I won’t say either are a “better” use of basics.

Also...go watch Anastasia Tarakanova’s latest FS in her Fan Thread ...the way she transition out of her jumps. She is a master of using basic skating as a way to transition from element back into her interpretation.

 

[moriel]

Her basics are more simple now and some people prefer that. Think of the little steps in between movements and spins. She’s going far less difficulty and mich more focus more gliding. Better is subjective in this instance. IMO her programs have shifted from using figure skating steps and athletic difficulty of her programs to a more theatrical based approach. She has a way to go to stand out going this route IMO.

Think Mariah Bell. Look at how Anastasiia Gubanova uses her SS to control her speed in relation to the music. Deep edges with a purpose to express as opposed to excite. Both are great and I won’t say either are a “better” use of basics.

Also...go watch Anastasia Tarakanova’s latest FS in her Fan Thread ...the way she transition out of her jumps. She is a master of using basic skating as a way to transition from element back into her interpretation.

That is not an improvement, imho, that is just "simple choreography with less transitions".

 

[bobbob]

Her basics are more simple now and some people prefer that. Think of the little steps in between movements and spins. She’s going far less difficulty and mich more focus more gliding. Better is subjective in this instance. IMO her programs have shifted from using figure skating steps and athletic difficulty of her programs to a more theatrical based approach. She has a way to go to stand out going this route IMO.

Think Mariah Bell. Look at how Anastasiia Gubanova uses her SS to control her speed in relation to the music. Deep edges with a purpose to express as opposed to excite. Both are great and I won’t say either are a “better” use of basics.

Also...go watch Anastasia Tarakanova’s latest FS in her Fan Thread ...the way she transition out of her jumps. She is a master of using basic skating as a way to transition from element back into her interpretation.

I definitely agree her new style is more simple and less difficult. Not a good thing in general, unless I guess you have amazing basic skating skills and gliding ability. But the fact of the matter is Evgenia does not have the best gliding and skating skills, so her overall technique just appears worse since she does not do what she is strong at. And isn't the whole purpose of programs to use figure skating steps and athletically difficult movements? This is not theater.

You talk about the way Tarankanova transitions out of jumps...that was what Evgenia used to do before the change...transition out of elements seamlessly into the choreo. Not so much now.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Disagreed. Her basics are better, for instance. I agree on spins, though.

But this is not a competition of a basic skating but of figures. You can have the best basics in the world but if you don't do figures on ice you can't be the best in a figure skating

 

[LRK]

Since "everyone" else's comments have been posted, may as well add Plushy's post as well:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BqmntudjmAV/

He wrote:
Dear Zhenya, your admirers and friends will always support you! Sportsmen are not robots, they are human beings. You have been a winner for 20 times in a row and nothing terrible happened yesterday! The Grand Prix Final is not the World Championship and not Olympic Games! You have a lot of starts ahead of you where, I am sure, you will show your spirit and express your talent! There are people that can support you today, but when the sportsman stumbles or makes a mistake, they destroy you! I’ve been through this and many times! I rose to my feet and was ready for a new battle! With new strength and new motivation! You’re definitely no coward! You’re a strong girl! Onwards and upwards! We believe in you and we are always by your side!����

 

[[email protected]]

She wanted to do these new programs especially a tango, to try something new and to experiment to maybe find a new style for her. Maybe next season they will go back to her previous type of programs or try to transition slower into this new type of style e e.g. do one program in her old style and one in a new style. I mean even Yuna Kim eased herself into new type programs, she always skated to slow classical type of music as a junior and then e.g. they tried El Tango de Roxanne as she turned to senior, which was new to her and a preparation for Danse Macabre which she skated to two years later, to first try out if the style fits her before she callenges herself with something as unique as DM.

In 2014 I remember new threads every week about what an outstanding skater Yuna Kim was. Even when they were not directly named after Yuna they still implied that. For example, "the skaters who never missed the podium". Of course, the OP was about Yuna. Now, Evgenya had an uninterrupted streak of 18 wins followed by 2 silvers. This is one big result. And Yuna coming to Borser and "easing herself into new type programs" did not stop to get podiums. Evgenija did already and not in a big competition. That's why all this fuzz is around. Also I don't like "even" in the quote. I believed just a while ago that if "even" were used it would refer to Medvedeva.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

But this is not a competition of a basic skating but of figures. You can have the best basics in the world but if you don't do figures on ice you can't be the best in a figure skating

It’s importamt to show a strong mastery of basics. Whether they are long and drawn out or blistering fast and complex is up to the user. Both have a place in figure skating and can score very well.

As for figures...I see a few local skaters doing figures regularly and IMO

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

In 2014 I remember new threads every week about what an outstanding skater Yuna Kim was. Even when they were not directly named after Yuna they still implied that. For example, "the skaters who never missed the podium". Of course, the OP was about Yuna. Now, Evgenya had an uninterrupted streak of 18 wins followed by 2 silvers. This is one big result. And Yuna coming to Borser and "easing herself into new type programs" did not stop to get podiums. Evgenija did already and not in a big competition. That's why all this fuzz is around. Also I don't like "even" in the quote. I believed just a while ago that if "even" were used it would refer to Medvedeva.

When Yuna was competing, her style was the preferred style. Mao always had more complexity but, for whatever reason, got noticeably lower PCS marks. Around Sochi things changed and now the preferred style is more transitions over pleasing choreography. Even Carolina adapted by shortening her lutz entrance and doing other difficult jump entrances, including her 3S. Evgenia is going from the preferred style to one that isn't the trend now, so I don't know if her marks are going to rise to where they were before.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

It’s importamt to show a strong mastery of basics. Whether they are long and drawn out or blistering fast and complex is up to the user. Both have s place in figure skating and cam score very well.

As for figures...I see a few local skaters doing figures regularly and IMO

I agree. It is important but it is not the only important thing, nor it is more important than other things. We can look at the definition of skating skills for figure skating by ISU for example. Glide and flow ('basics') are not the only category of good SS, but also steps and turns and skating on one foot.

 

[Scott512]

Since "everyone" else's comments have been posted, may as well add Plushy's post as well:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BqmntudjmAV/

He wrote:
Dear Zhenya, your admirers and friends will always support you! Sportsmen are not robots, they are human beings. You have been a winner for 20 times in a row and nothing terrible happened yesterday! The Grand Prix Final is not the World Championship and not Olympic Games! You have a lot of starts ahead of you where, I am sure, you will show your spirit and express your talent! There are people that can support you today, but when the sportsman stumbles or makes a mistake, they destroy you! I’ve been through this and many times! I rose to my feet and was ready for a new battle! With new strength and new motivation! You’re definitely no coward! You’re a strong girl! Onwards and upwards! We believe in you and we are always by your side!����

Amazing words from the king of Russian figure skating. It could only make Evgenia Medvedeva feel like a million bucks.

 

[crazydreamer]

I don’t understand Medvedeva’s performance of her SP. The choreography is so fun and playful but I don’t think I’ve seen her crack a smile once in her various performances so far this season. Why so serious?

 

[[email protected]]

When Yuna was competing, her style was the preferred style. Mao always had more complexity but, for whatever reason, got noticeably lower PCS marks. Around Sochi things changed and now the preferred style is more transitions over pleasing choreography. Even Carolina adapted by shortening her lutz entrance and doing other difficult jump entrances, including her 3S. Evgenia is going from the preferred style to one that isn't the trend now, so I don't know if her marks are going to rise to where they were before.

And why would they do that?