Men's FS

[iloveaxel]

Even if one takes into account the SP, which Lysacek botched and Buttle did not? I think in these discussions a lot of the time people have the tendancy to forget about the previous phases of the competition and that it's not just about one skate, but a combination.

Buttle certainly does not deserve 146 points with such a quad-less, axel-less program. That's an awfully high score for such jump content. It should be in 130s even taking into account of his high PCS.

It's really not fair to other more talented skaters.

 

[enlight78]

Buttle didn't fall.

OOOOOOPs . My bad. I was thinking he fell on his triple axel. You know it is late when you start remembering things that never happen.

 

[thpme]

Buttle certainly does not deserve 146 points with such a quad-less, axel-less program. That's an awfully high score for such jump content. It should be in 130s even taking into account of his high PCS.

It's really not fair to other more talented skaters.

Do you know there are other technical elements besides jumps? Buttle received all level 4s for his non-jump elements in the short program. It's equally hard if not harder to achieve such high technical content. It is after all, figure skating, not jumping on ice.

 

[Vodka Shot]

Wow, there are some very um interesting comments in this thread. I didn't know that men could skate for the ladies event? Someone suggested Buttle skate for a ladies medal? :scratch:

Buttle's high PCS are totally warranted. He has amazing skating skills, transitions, Choreography, performance & execution, and interpretation. Him winning an event based solely on his PCS is no different from someone winning based purley on jumps. That is just as wrong IMO. It's Evan who rarely deserves his high PCS or GOE marks for his TES imo.

If Buttle's poor jump skills are going to get harped on then Evan and Joubert's crappy choreography should too.

It's PCS + TES. the PCS is or at least should be scored properly and be considered just as important.

 

[temperboy28]

I dont understand why 159 for Evan with a 1 quad clean performance is that much too high a score, even if it is a bit high, it is still reasonable I find. Remember you gain alot of points by changing your jumps to put in 1 quad but not alot to put in 2, so that means the performance with 2 quads would still only be a 160-161. While with 0 quads it would be much lower. If you think Buttle was robbed, then say his scores or PCS should have been higher then, but saying Lysacek's score was much too high does not make sense to me, it seems reasonable, like I said remember you gain alot of points by doing 1 quad to 0, not many points even by adding a 2nd quad.

Evan's 169 at U.S Nationals was the outrageous score, that is the one people should be in arms about, that is the one that should be seen as a scandalous score. His score here was acceptable, I dont understand so many people being so dissaproving with this particular score, it is his U.S Nationals score people should have been really critical of, not the score here.

 

[temperboy28]

Buttle certainly does not deserve 146 points with such a quad-less, axel-less program. That's an awfully high score for such jump content. It should be in 130s even taking into account of his high PCS.

It's really not fair to other more talented skaters.

I agree it is not the ladies event. If Jeff wants to win mens events he should do mens jumps. Ladies do the triple lutz and triple flip as their big jumps. So does "no triple axel and no quad" Jeff. That is not to diss the ladies events, but men should be expected to be doing the harder jumps, if a women did Jeff's jump content tonight and win it would be great, but for a man no way.

Yeah Evan is overscored and overrated like othes say on this thread, he is an oversaturated product who will get a wake up call at Worlds, but he still deserves to win over Jeff Buttle doing a ladies jump program.

 

[Vodka Shot]

I dont understand so many people being so dissaproving with this particular score, it is his U.S Nationals score people should have been really critical of, not the score here.

I was pissed off about it. But, everyone was all, "He did so good, good for him etc." He did good at Nat's yeah but, not that good? But, we all know why they gave him that super duper high score don't we?:scowl:

 

[kittycat26]

Buttle's high PCS are totally warranted. He has amazing skating skills, transitions, Choreography, performance & execution, and interpretation. Him winning an event based solely on his PCS is no different from someone winning based purley on jumps. That is just as wrong IMO. It's Evan who rarely deserves his high PCS or GOE marks for his TES imo.

If Buttle's poor jump skills are going to get harped on then Evan and Joubert's crappy choreography should too.

It's PCS + TES. the PCS is or at least should be scored properly and be considered just as important.

That was excellently put. I completely agree with all you said.

Buttle's programs and his performances to them are works of art. Intricate and detailed movements, attention to the nuances of the music, beautiful flow and edge quality, superb posture and line at all times. People seem to think it is just a jumping competition, although with skaters like Evan Lysacek scoring as well as they do in all areas who can blame some for having that perception.

You are so right that it seems unfair to harp on Buttle's flaws in jumps and be dismissive of the bare bones choreography, flawed basic skating, and complete lack of polish or sophistication in both Joubert and Lysacek. You are also completely right in saying it is Evan who receives sometimes offensively high TE scores and PC scores. His score here, while alot lower then his U.S Nationals score, was still much too high for what he has shown he is capable of, the PC score is downright offensive for what his program and skating has shown it can present at this present time, and to attain his TE score the GOE surely was out of line once again as well. Joubert also benefits from inexplicable scoring of his PC and GOE on the TE standards, not to the same extent as Evan Lysacek, but still to the point of being distressing to a skating fan who wants to believe in the system.

 

[krenseby]

Re:

Not entirely true. Evan Lysacek won the overall event by less then two and a half points. Evan undeservedly, unless was half a point ahead on PC scores. Had Evan lost to Buttle on the PC scores by even a mere 2 points, or an average of .2 per component, which even if performed his Carmen program the best I had ever seen it, he still should have lost the PC scores by more then that with Buttle not having a flow-disrupting fall, that would have made the difference in the final outcome of the event due to Evan's deficit after his poor short program.

So contrary to what you are saying the unwarranted PC scores bestowed on Evan Lysacek did in fact make a difference in the final outcome of the event. Truly a shame for the sport, but not the first time the ignorance of skating judges and the integrity of their scoring comes into play and innocent skaters are both the beneficiaries and victims of their ignorance.

Sounds to me that judges are subverting the system. They have basically made PCS conditional on jump content. The judges' not-so-secret principle that they are clearly following is that superior PCS skills should never be able to allow a skater to overtake an opponent who has a much higher TES score.

I think the message to skaters is clear: take care of your jumps and spins because the rest is just a formality.

 

[krenseby]

I dont understand why 159 for Evan with a 1 quad clean performance is that much too high a score, even if it is a bit high, it is still reasonable I find. Remember you gain alot of points by changing your jumps to put in 1 quad but not alot to put in 2, so that means the performance with 2 quads would still only be a 160-161. While with 0 quads it would be much lower. If you think Buttle was robbed, then say his scores or PCS should have been higher then, but saying Lysacek's score was much too high does not make sense to me, it seems reasonable, like I said remember you gain alot of points by doing 1 quad to 0, not many points even by adding a 2nd quad.

Evan's 169 at U.S Nationals was the outrageous score, that is the one people should be in arms about, that is the one that should be seen as a scandalous score. His score here was acceptable, I dont understand so many people being so dissaproving with this particular score, it is his U.S Nationals score people should have been really critical of, not the score here.

Temperboy, you don't realize that the PCS score tinkering at this event that was well-intended to raise Evan Lysacek above Jeff Buttle is actually a disservice to Evan. The score doesn't represent Evan's skating skills but really an inflated score. So, once Evan has a jump mistake or two or is outshined by quite a few opponents, the judges will reduce both his TES + PCS scores. If his PCS scores weren't inflated, he would learn to put extra content in his programs to bring up them higher. As it stands, once his jumps leave him or he is outshined by several other opponents, his PCS scores will sink quite low. All because he had false confidence in them!

 

[mylastduchess]

Sounds to me that judges are subverting the system. They have basically made PCS conditional on jump content. The judges' not-so-secret principle that they are clearly following is that superior PCS skills should never be able to allow a skater to overtake an opponent who has a much higher TES score.

I think the message to skaters is clear: take care of your jumps and spins because the rest is just a formality.

Hasn't that been obvious when Plushenko got 8's for his choreography and transition at the olympics when his didn't even look like it had any content other than jumps.

 

[Tonichelle]

SOOOOOOOOOO Excited for team USA! Yeay for Evan the comeback kid... and Ryan, even with the fall, being in 4th just warms my heart... and Jeremy - can't wait to see his skate!

W00T!

 

[krenseby]

Re:

Hasn't that been obvious when Plushenko got 8's for his choreography and transition at the olympics when his didn't even look like it had any content other than jumps.

Yes, but that seemed to me just special case of favoritism that affected only Plushenko. I thought that the judges just raised PCS scores for skaters they especially liked.

 

[mylastduchess]

Yes, but that seemed to me just special case of favoritism that affected only Plushenko. I thought that the judges just raised PCS scores for skaters they especially liked.

remember back in the days when judges gave 5.6 to this skater and 4.11 to this skater just because. I actually don't think the judges have any clue what PCS means they gave a random number, notice how the marks is pretty much the same for T, C,I etc. I mean Jeff's choreo is a masterpiece if that doesn't desreve a 9 I don't know what program will? - and Davis Wilson is the best choreographer you can get

 

[rinkmaster]

Hasn't that been obvious when Plushenko got 8's for his choreography and transition at the olympics when his didn't even look like it had any content other than jumps.

There it is, finally! I wasn't watching the board during the olys but htis really ticked me off. I watched that program tonight on youtube and it was pathetic. Technically it was great, but the artistic was comparable to that of a novice or junior man! How those marks were rewarded like that is far beyond me. That is one of the greatest crimes in skating in my opinion!

 

[Engwaciriel]

He can always do show, or he can medal in ladies' event, but please please don't let this guy shamelessly occupy world podium without a simple 3A!!!!

A simple 3A? I'd like to know how many of us on this board that's capable of doing that simple 3A

 

[Kasey]

I love the 'wuzrobbing' that can take place on an event that no one (or the rare few rinkside) has actually SEEN yet.

 

[ae9177]

GREAT JOB EVAN! His victory is well deserved. There's nothing wrong with the score, I think it's fair. Even without a quad, his Carmen can always easily get 150+. And now with a solid 4-3 under his belt, he has a good shot at the podium at Worlds. I actually think his PCS is a little underscored comparing to Joubert who can consistently obtain 77+ PCS.

Nothing against Jeff, he's an exquisite skater, but without extradinary jumping ability, hiss chance at Worlds will be slim. IMO, it's a shame to have a quad-less and 3A-less competitor win Men's competition.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Nothing against Jeff, he's an exquisite skater, but without extradinary jumping ability, hiss chance at Worlds will be slim. IMO, it's a shame to have a quad-less and 3A-less competitor win Men's competition.

Sad, but TRUE. The Men's Division will need these jumps: quad, quad combo and 3A. And an additional quad non-toe, will decide the winner. Forget about PCS.

Joe

 

[yelyoh]

I am happy for Evan. I like Jeff more (along with Johnny and Takahashi [and Lambiel if he ever returns]) but if you have the jumps, and decent spins and PC scores, you will medal most likely. The only problem I have with Evan's PC scores are for perf, inter and choreo. The program is not that well choreographed and it is recycled. The scores should reflect that. That skater always has it easier than others with new programs. I think recycled programs should get an automatic deduction of one point for each of those elements to even the playing field. In that light, I think Evan was overscored. But I still think he deserved the win. And at least there was choreography unlike Plush's Olympic LP which had none. I actually like the concept of the new scoring system but until there is honesty in the sport on the part of the judges and some improvements made (two separate panels?) the frustration for us (passionionate fans) will continue and spawn angry threads such as this one. Now for the Ladies LP.