Ted Barton interviews Eteri Tutberidze

[esteticlove]

Wow I will try to answer to some of you at once.

Don't you see a contradiction praising Eteri's methods first and naming them questionable some lines after.

Buyanova is not an obviously negative case for me..

Well, the common thing between Buyanova and Tutberidze would be that they both restrict their students in terms of diet. (I am sure almost every coach in fs has to do this, but just those 2 have been vocal about it recently) Other than that, Buyanova's ladies tend to have major UR problems, whereas Eteri's girls pretty much always rotate their jumps and they almost never pop a jump. Also, the whole packaging of team Tutberidze is always there and they impress not just with jumps but with artistry. So, yes, Buyanova's method is questionable in terms of whether it is successful because I don't see how she could have improved Evgenia's technique.

I am not an Brian uber, I also think that he shows a lot of flaws in terms of Evgenia's trainings and strategy for the season. Honestly, I don't believe that he could change her jumping technique, however, I see that despite the throwbacks he improved some aspects of her skating. If we compare him to Bouyanova as an option, I can't agree that he's worse than her. :noshake:

It is not obvious. Eteri has the more powerful federation behind her, and what is obvious is that Russian ladies get a huge Russian bonus, getting better scores. But those scores do not make Eteri's training method better compared to Japanese, Canadian, etc. coaches. She's better in some things, and worse in others.

I am sorry but I personally don't agree with this. Eteri might get some support from the federation, but honestly this support appears to come too late (maybe from last season?) for the success, she has already brought out. Her potential showed back in 2014-2015 with Lipnitskaya at the Olympics, and Sachanovich and Medvedeva on the junior circuit. Ever since, with each season towards 2018 her girls were on the top because they had the most difficult layouts. And they were artistic. I think that skaters like Konstantinova and her coach have much more federation support than team Tutberidze Brian Orser said himself that he has no clue how Eteri's students manage to always win. She must be doing something different and more efficient than other coaches.

As for jumps quality, I find it ludicrous that a multi-year World Champion and Olympic Silver Medalist has to re-learn her jumps to finally improve her technique - that doesn't speak too high of Eteri prior training, especially for an older (post-pub) body, IMHO.

The thing is - Eteri's method is better for winning but as you say - it doesn't mean good technique. Still, those skaters get the scores for their jumps. This is a flaw of the judging system, not of the coaching team.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Actually, I titled this thread "Ted interviews Eteri, it's emotional", but the Mods seem to have changed it...?!

Just to introduce some further whataboutery, if fans of varying Sports actually knew the sacrifices made by successful competitors, would they be just as enthusiastic?

Yeah, i think that general activity of being an elite athlete in today's society is asking for a lot of sacrifices including your own mental health. Sometimes i fell that those elite athletes and sports competitions are not that different than gladiators games from the past, except they don't literally kill eachothers at the end

 

[yume]

The thing about diet, eating disorders, etc. Maybe some are slim because of their metabolism and not extreme diet? Some can eat everything they want and not gain weight while others eat small portions daily and don't lose anything, or even gain weight. Satoko said that she have to eat a lot to gain some weight. She said that she lose weight too easily and it's not healthy for her.

And i think that people talk more about Eteri's students because not only her students are more famous (are winning everything) but also because most of them are underage. Nobody opened threads and threads crucyfying Gracie's coach for her eating disorders or Orser for Daleman's mental health.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Take note I was refering to Eteri's 2014 comments. Eteri, not Yulia. The praising Yulia for Yulia's ability not to eat, etc.

In my country, in this day & age, a coach making such comments publically, would have been hauled up by the Sports Ministry & questioned & reprimanded. If lucky demoted, if not lucky, bye bye. Seriously.
In other words, the coach blabbing away is her own self incriminating evidence.

Or are you implying Eteri did not utter those words & use the misquoted defense?

Action has been taken for lesser infractions than that. Winter sports need to catch up with Summer sports.

I’m Familiar with the comments and remember it was in the context of how hard of a worker she was and how hard she would prepare for events. First one on the ice and last one off. Eteri said she was an example she would use for other students and also added in addition the remark about the powder diet to prepare for events if she had gained unexpected weight. You’re free to infer from it what you like but Yulia has spoke on the matter and never indicated it was a coaching induced problem.

It’s not that your concern is unmerited or worthy of discussion but I think you’ve gone a bit beyond the scope of the situation and chartered into murky waters. Ymmv.

 

[[email protected]]

In the 1st place, Tolstoj's post which you replied to was refering to longevity of the skater's careers. Which later in his reply to you ALSO mentioned Mao, Akiko Suzuki. He/she even added the relatively lesser known Kanako Murakami(who retired at 23).

In the 2nd place, your sentences only stated "Who lasts long in Japan outside Satoko?Who lasts long elsewhere(dont give me Kostner)" Tolstoj and me only gave you the names of the Japanese ladies who retired 2014 to 2017, same time Yulia Lipnitskaya retired & Adelina Sotnikova went inactive mode.

You didnt specify properly, you dont get to complain abt our answers. You also cannot say we misinterpreted your question cos a 3rd person also replied the same way.

We are talking about Eteri here. Eteri was a young coach training kids with Polina Shelepen as an exception at the time when all the mentioned ladies had their long careers. What are long career examples in our current times when Eteri is a "monster coach"? Satoko - that's what I said. Yes, those that you mentioned retired when Eteri's girls and the new crops of the Japanese girls have become relevant. That's the whole point.

We don't know if Osmond is going to be back or not. If yes, it will prove nothing because she has currently zero or very low competition. Mai-Berenice-Meite? You must be kidding. She goes to GP, she goes to Europeans, even to the Olympics. She might not even get a place to compete at the Russian Nationals like Sima Sakhanovich who I would argue is not worse a skater. What long career would she have in Russia? I am sure there are ladies who keep competing at some low profile Russian local competions at the age past 20. She would be among them. I don't see it as a relevant example in the thread about Eteri and her girls' careers. Get rid of the 3 maximum rule in favor of individual ranking - then it will make more sense to speculate about long careers in the current environment. In the ISU 3 year standings among top-24 there are 8 Japanese, 5 Russians, and 11 for the rest of the world. In this year standings there are 7 Japanese, 7 Russians, and 10 for the rest of the world. The numbers would be even more startling if it were not for 3 only rule Europeans/Worlds and 9 only rule for GP. Some good Russian girls like Tarusina have the access only to B level competitions, same with Gubanova and others.

I looked at SB list. Among top-20 Russia -10, Japan - 5, the rest of the world -5.

And this will only get further with 3A coming of age. Let the best compete - then it will make sense to talk about long careers in Russia and Japan nowadays.

 

[[email protected]]

But as for critiques of skaters, this is nothing. At least no one is threatening Evgenia with dismemberment and death, as has happened in the past to other skaters.

Yes, the spit in the face was the toughest threat. But are we talking GS? I remember those threats against Adelina but not here.
If we are talking about Eteri and Alina little can compare with comments in Russian boards. Here people at least try to stay "analytical".

 

[yume]

I looked at SB list. Among top-20 Russia -10, Japan - 5, the rest of the world -5.

And this will only get further with 3A coming of age. Let the best compete - then it will make sense to talk about long careers in Russia and Japan nowadays.

:thumbsup:

 

[Mathman]

Excuse me! My attention was pricked by this statement, as a British skating fan!
The Fassis coached 2 British Olympians, Curry and Cousins, are you suggesting it was "wheeling and dealing" that got them victories rather than talent?

I don't know about John Curry, but there was a considerable dust-up in 1980 surrounding the charge that Fassi orchestrated the deal that gave the men's title to free skater Robin Cousins over East German figures guy Jan Hofmann, in exchange for giving East German Annett Poetsch the gold over Linda Fratianne. Probably nothing to it, but the supposed scheme was that the Austian judge would help to insert West German Dagmar Lurz between Potsch and Fratianne in figures, to make sure that the spread between Poetsch and Fratianne put Frantianne out of the running before the free skate began. Something like that.

Certainly Fassi had the reputation of being an influential figure in ISU circles. The USFSA arranged for Dorothy Hamill to switch coaches to Fassi in order to give her a leg up on the world stage. He had the reputation, whatever the truth of the matter, of being able to deliver the judges. And it was also the reputation of figure skating, that this was the way in which international titles were decided.

Of course there was no Internet in those days for fans to post their rants and wuzrobbeds. Who knows the real truth?

 

[Mathman]

Actually, I titled this thread "Ted interviews Eteri, it's emotional", but the Mods seem to have changed it...?!

I guess poor old beleaguered GS Forum Staff didn't want posters to let their emotions run away with them.

 

[moriel]

Just a little bit on longevity:
Scores at rusnats
2019 lowest: 167, 15th: 181, 10th: 202
2018 lowest: 160, 15th: 176, 10th: 196
2017 lowest: 137, 15th: 164, 10th: 189
2016 lowest: 143, 15th: 154, 10th: 178
2015 lowest: 141, 15th: 148, 10th: 160

Now, for comparison, 20th best total score of each season internationally, and number of russian ladies (between junior and senior) in top 20:
2018-2019*: 198, 10 russians in top 20, 5 japanese, 3 americans, 0 canadians
2017-2018: 196, 9 russians in top 20, 5 japanese, 1 american, 2 canadians
2016-2017: 192, 8 russians in top 20, 6 japanese, 3 americans, 2 canadians
2015-2016: 183, 8 russians in top 20, 7 japanese, 3 americans, 1 canadian
2014-2015: 172, 8 russians in top 20, 5 japanese, 5 americans, 0 canadians

And this is why the only longevity you can afford in russian ladies is skating for fun like Leonova, and getting one GP assignment because tons of people WD.
Because you stumble at rusnats, and you will not make worlds and euros that year. and so on and so forth.

 

[La Rhumba]

I don't know about John Curry, but there was a considerable dust-up in 1980 surrounding the charge that Fassi orchestrated the deal that gave the men's title to free skater Robin Cousins over East German figures guy Jan Hofmann, in exchange for giving East German Annett Poetsch the gold over Linda Fratianne. Probably nothing to it, but the supposed scheme was that the Austian judge would help to insert West German Dagmar Lurz between Potsch and Fratianne in figures, to make sure that the spread between Poetsch and Fratianne put Frantianne out of the running before the free skate began. Something like that.

Certainly Fassi had the reputation of being an influential figure in ISU circles. The USFSA arranged for Dorothy Hamill to switch coaches to Fassi in order to give her a leg up on the world stage. He had the reputation, whatever the truth of the matter, of being able to deliver the judges. And it was also the reputation of figure skating, that this was the way in which international titles were decided.

Of course there was no Internet in those days for fans to post their rants and wuzrobbeds. Who knows the real truth?

Ah, thanks for the explanation. Now I understand why Jan Hoffmann said in the recent Jutta Muller documentary "some say I should've won Olympic gold", which made me raise my eyebrows, as I always found he skated with such wooden arms, or like an aeroplane, as my sister said. But it obviously will rankle with him for life.

I had heard that the Curry decision in 76 took one Eastern block judge to put him 1st to make the 5/4 split, and that was the Czech judge, who apparently never judged again. I don't remember ever seeing Vladimir Kovalev, who came 2nd, skate, so don't know his abilities. But John Curry was a uniquely beautiful gem who thoroughly deserved an Olympic gold.

To bring it back on topic, it's great the Skating coverage we get nowadays, the access, the livestreaming, the press conferences, the naming of Panels, and interviews with important people. It's all out there, online. :clapper:

 

[yume]

That's why it's also unfair to define longevity as skating in international competitions or big international competitions during many seasons. Because someone like Mai Mihara who scores 200+ at each competition can't be compared to someone who can't score 160 and is always selected for big events.

 

[Casual]

I am sorry but I personally don't agree with this. Eteri might get some support from the federation, but honestly this support appears to come too late (maybe from last season?) for the success, she has already brought out. Her potential showed back in 2014-2015 with Lipnitskaya at the Olympics, and Sachanovich and Medvedeva on the junior circuit. Ever since, with each season towards 2018 her girls were on the top because they had the most difficult layouts. And they were artistic. I think that skaters like Konstantinova and her coach have much more federation support than team Tutberidze Brian Orser said himself that he has no clue how Eteri's students manage to always win. She must be doing something different and more efficient than other coaches.


The thing is - Eteri's method is better for winning but as you say - it doesn't mean good technique. Still, those skaters get the scores for their jumps. This is a flaw of the judging system, not of the coaching team.

My point was not that Rusfed prefers Eteri, and showers her with support, over other Russian coaches.

My point was that there is an obvious "Russian bonus" (read "highly inflated scores") for Russians, due to the strength wielded by Rusfed.

Eliminate that bonus (aka preferential judging), and the gap between Russian girls and other girls suddenly stops being so huge.

And once it does, the defects of Eteri's girls skating become more obvious; and instead of gushing "she must be doing something right 'cause look - huge scores! winning! means she's perfect!", the conversation turns to: "yes, little jumping beans can jump, and the programs are structured very cleverly to maximize points, and she should be applauded for new ways to develop the sport; however, there are also some serious issues with her coaching style that should not be overlooked".

This is a flaw of the judging system, absolutely. It's not the fault of the coaching team to use it to their advantage. However, the flaws in Eteri's coaching model are real, and can be discussed.

 

[yume]

", the conversation turns to: "yes, little jumping beans can jump, and the programs are structured very cleverly to maximize points, and she should be applauded for new ways to develop the sport; however, there are also some serious issues with her coaching style that should not be overlooked".
.

This is basically what most most of people is saying since forever.

 

[sx98423]

My point was not that Rusfed prefers Eteri, and showers her with support, over other Russian coaches.

My point was that there is an obvious "Russian bonus" (read "highly inflated scores") for Russians, due to the strength wielded by Rusfed.

Eliminate that bonus (aka preferential judging), and the gap between Russian girls and other girls suddenly stops being so huge.

And once it does, the defects of Eteri's girls skating become more obvious; and instead of gushing "she must be doing something right 'cause look - huge scores! winning! means she's perfect!", the conversation turns to: "yes, little jumping beans can jump, and the programs are structured very cleverly to maximize points, and she should be applauded for new ways to develop the sport; however, there are also some serious issues with her coaching style that should not be overlooked".

This is a flaw of the judging system, absolutely. It's not the fault of the coaching team to use it to their advantage. However, the flaws in Eteri's coaching model are real, and can be discussed.

the conversation right now is the former and not the latter (although some people have been trying very hard spread this conversation) simply because her results have been amazing. if another coach was getting similar results the conversation would 100% be about how amazing they are.

all this talk of "jumping beans" and "serious issues" are imo things that critics say either because they are willfully blind to whats really going on or because they haven't done enough research. idk how many times eteri's team needs to explicitly say that they focus on the overall package, clean jumps, etc before some people get that idea into their brains lol. literally everything the team have said in recent years shows that they in fact do not want to develop little jumping beans that disappear after a 2-3 seasons. at the same time they seem to understand that it's competitive in russia, and it can't be certain that all their skaters will make it. i can see how their realistic/blunt comments could turn some people off but at the end of the day there's a lot of truth to those comments.

 

[Alexz]

The thing about diet, eating disorders, etc. Maybe some are slim because of their metabolism and not extreme diet? Some can eat everything they want and not gain weight while others eat small portions daily and don't lose anything, or even gain weight. Satoko said that she have to eat a lot to gain some weight. She said that she lose weight too easily and it's not healthy for her.

And i think that people talk more about Eteri's students because not only her students are more famous (are winning everything) but also because most of them are underage. Nobody opened threads and threads crucyfying Gracie's coach for her eating disorders or Orser for Daleman's mental health.

Daleman developed eating disorder under Orser too. Her recent Instagram post was troubling.

 

[Alexz]

I'll just say this: if you are NOT watching your athlete's weight = you are a BAD coach. In any sport: track and field, gymnastics, diving, synchro swimming, boxing, wrestling, tennis and etc.

Good coaches always look after their athlete and his/her weight. Better coaches hire in-house nutritionist or send parents to proper "sport nutritioning" lectures, so they can learn how important is special diet for young athlete. But the best coaches control every single meal intake and have nutritionist to teach their athlete what and how to eat properly. So the athletes can be aware themselves what is good for their bodies and how their weight/performance ratio is important for their careers.

 

[Tolstoj]

My point was not that Rusfed prefers Eteri, and showers her with support, over other Russian coaches.

My point was that there is an obvious "Russian bonus" (read "highly inflated scores") for Russians, due to the strength wielded by Rusfed.

Eliminate that bonus (aka preferential judging), and the gap between Russian girls and other girls suddenly stops being so huge.

And once it does, the defects of Eteri's girls skating become more obvious; and instead of gushing "she must be doing something right 'cause look - huge scores! winning! means she's perfect!", the conversation turns to: "yes, little jumping beans can jump, and the programs are structured very cleverly to maximize points, and she should be applauded for new ways to develop the sport; however, there are also some serious issues with her coaching style that should not be overlooked".

This is a flaw of the judging system, absolutely. It's not the fault of the coaching team to use it to their advantage. However, the flaws in Eteri's coaching model are real, and can be discussed.

Eh i'm not so sure if i agree. Certainly RusFed is betting hard on Eteri because without her they wouldn't be that dominant, but it's not that they are overscoring them only: Konstantinova is clearly pushed, CSKA skaters are all still pushed,... and if you look at the others they are often hit and miss, so is it really worth to push someone else more than Eteri's skaters?

This season Mishin's group rised once again in a big way, but the rest are all inconsistent, and even those who are good like Gubanova, Tarusina, Gulyakova, are comparable with the top japanese skaters if not worse, while Eteri's skaters are clearly better than the rest of the field, that's the catch. When you put a quad + 3 triple-triple combos, from a technical standpoint, you're already competing on a different league.

it's not that Eteri's skaters are getting big scores out of nowhere: on top of the incredibly ambitious programs, they all have incredible spins, they all get level 4 on the steps sequence most of the time and they tend to add transitions for every single element, and Eteri also pushes good skaters objectively, especially with the girls: besides Trusova which is rough around the edges, Kostornaia, Shcherbakova, Valieva,... are clearly the most artistic skaters in Russia.

Whether you like their programs or not, that team worked the system in a way judges have to give them big scores because everything is a plus.

The real flaw of the judging system is the absolute lack of penalties for prerotation and full blade assist but that is something you should count for every single skater and trust me Eteri's skaters would still be near the top because most of the others are far worse.

Mie Hamada for instance, which is often praised for pushing polished skaters, she teaches one of the worst jumping technique i've ever seen: Miyahara, Shiraiwa, Honda and Kihira all have big rotation issues, full blade assist on the lutz, prerotation on most of the jumps,...

 

[lichi]

I'll just say this: if you are NOT watching your athlete's weight = you are a BAD coach. In any sport: track and field, gymnastics, diving, synchro swimming, boxing, wrestling, tennis and etc. Good coaches always look after athlete and his/her weight. Better coaches hire in-house nutritionist or send parents to nutrition lectures, so they can learn how important is special diet for young athlete. Best coaches control every meal intake and have nutritionist to teach their athlete what and how to eat properly.

Completely agree.

Out of curiosity though, does Eteri's team have a nutritionist? I'd imagine they do, as a training facility with top athletes, but never heard about it.

 

[el henry]

If you as a coach need to weigh your athletes, particularly young teen girls, you are a BAD coach. In any field.

If you as a coach praise teen skaters for subsisting on a powdered diet, you are a BAD coach. In any field.

ETA: and I surely hope that any talk of coaches doing that, today, in 2019, is misreported and incorrect. I make no assumptions about what has actually happened.

If you excuse that talk and conduct by talking about the effect of extra weight on jumps, or medals won, or any nonsense that has anything to do with other than the long term health of the athlete, then :confused2: BAD. Because long term health of the athlete. That’s GOOD

If you as a coach find nutrionists and psychologists and other professionals to help your skaters achieve their optimal performance

GOOD coach.