Yes, I could care less about the awarding of two gold medals. I was absolutely sickened and outraged, however, by the total lack of anything resembling a complete or rigorous investigation. They swept all the corruption under the rug and continued business as usual. It is nauseating that La Gougne will ever be allowed to judge international figure skating again. It is nauseating that the head of her federation was not banned for life. It is equally nauseating that the other side of the "deal", the Russians, were never even investigated at all. It was a golden (no pun intended) opportunity for figure skating to clean out the bad apples, and they CHOSE, freely, not to do it. THAT is what killed credibility of the sport. Judges who cheat should NEVER be allowed to judge again. The federations they are representing should be disgraced.
Open letter to Ottavio Cinquanta
- Thread starter sk8rpatty
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Yes, I could care less about the awarding of two gold medals. I was absolutely sickened and outraged, however, by the total lack of anything resembling a complete or rigorous investigation. They swept all the corruption under the rug and continued business as usual. It is nauseating that La Gougne will ever be allowed to judge international figure skating again. It is nauseating that the head of her federation was not banned for life. It is equally nauseating that the other side of the "deal", the Russians, were never even investigated at all. It was a golden (no pun intended) opportunity for figure skating to clean out the bad apples, and they CHOSE, freely, not to do it. THAT is what killed credibility of the sport. Judges who cheat should NEVER be allowed to judge again. The federations they are representing should be disgraced.
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- Mar 14, 2006
I agree that awarding 2 gold medals was a factor. All of a sudden skating looked like a children's birthday party. Everybody has to get a present! Good grief.
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- Mar 19, 2006
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- Jun 21, 2003
I think there are four main questions in play, with regard to evaluating the effect that the new judging system has had on the sport.
1. Are the performances that we are seeing better or worse than before.
(My opinion -- the jury is still out. Time will tell.)
2. Do the fans like the old or the new system better.
(My answer -- not really an issue. In both systems the fans sit there patiently until the judges' scores go up. They see either 5.7 or 101.32 -- yay, she won!)
3. Does one system or the other produce better judging?
(My opinion -- the same. For either system, in most contests the person who skates the best wins; once in a while there is a close contest and a controversial outcome.)
4. What about cheating, either in fact or in the public perception?
(My opinion -- both, indeed all, judging systems have the same problem.)
1. Are the performances that we are seeing better or worse than before.
(My opinion -- the jury is still out. Time will tell.)
2. Do the fans like the old or the new system better.
(My answer -- not really an issue. In both systems the fans sit there patiently until the judges' scores go up. They see either 5.7 or 101.32 -- yay, she won!)
3. Does one system or the other produce better judging?
(My opinion -- the same. For either system, in most contests the person who skates the best wins; once in a while there is a close contest and a controversial outcome.)
4. What about cheating, either in fact or in the public perception?
(My opinion -- both, indeed all, judging systems have the same problem.)
Thoughts
I think the performances are worse. For one thing the value of a completely clean program was downgraded in favor of trying for quads and triple-triples. They give partial credit for attempting these jumps whether they are completed cleanly or not. Consequently, skaters attempt them with varying degrees of success, and the result is a messy looking program. The new judging rewards athleticisim at the expense of a beautifully designed and skated program. So spins have become exercises in contortion instead of things of beauty. The same for some of the spirals being executed. When I compare Kwan's Lyra Angelica with Shizuka's skate at the Olympics, it's a no contest for me. One program was more beautiful than the other. Lyrica was a complete work from start to finish, whereas Shiz was just packing in the combinations one after the other. Don't misunderstand me, she deserved the gold and she skated beautifully but I think the program was crammed. Also, another problem is that the stress on the skater's body is phenomenal with the new guidelines. Skater's are going to be in rough shape 5-10 years after they retire. If I had a child who wanted to skate competitively I would throw myself in front of the skating rink door before I would let her/him do it.
The scoring is complex and leaves the average viewer out of the equation. People want to be able to judge right along with the judges. They can't do that with this system. The one positive is that it is usually pretty clear who the winner is. The bad news is that it is not transparent. There is LESS transparency with this system, which is a distinct negative.
Skating viewership is declining in the U.S.. This is a serious problem. The U.S. has historically been crucial to support for skating as a sport. It is all well and good that it is thriving in Europe, but without U.S. and to a degree, Canadian support, it's headed for a nose dive. Skating is not the equivalent of soccer in Europe. That's why it still needs U.S. support.
O.k. enough of my complaining but I am worried about the one sport I truly love.
I think the performances are worse. For one thing the value of a completely clean program was downgraded in favor of trying for quads and triple-triples. They give partial credit for attempting these jumps whether they are completed cleanly or not. Consequently, skaters attempt them with varying degrees of success, and the result is a messy looking program. The new judging rewards athleticisim at the expense of a beautifully designed and skated program. So spins have become exercises in contortion instead of things of beauty. The same for some of the spirals being executed. When I compare Kwan's Lyra Angelica with Shizuka's skate at the Olympics, it's a no contest for me. One program was more beautiful than the other. Lyrica was a complete work from start to finish, whereas Shiz was just packing in the combinations one after the other. Don't misunderstand me, she deserved the gold and she skated beautifully but I think the program was crammed. Also, another problem is that the stress on the skater's body is phenomenal with the new guidelines. Skater's are going to be in rough shape 5-10 years after they retire. If I had a child who wanted to skate competitively I would throw myself in front of the skating rink door before I would let her/him do it.
The scoring is complex and leaves the average viewer out of the equation. People want to be able to judge right along with the judges. They can't do that with this system. The one positive is that it is usually pretty clear who the winner is. The bad news is that it is not transparent. There is LESS transparency with this system, which is a distinct negative.
Skating viewership is declining in the U.S.. This is a serious problem. The U.S. has historically been crucial to support for skating as a sport. It is all well and good that it is thriving in Europe, but without U.S. and to a degree, Canadian support, it's headed for a nose dive. Skating is not the equivalent of soccer in Europe. That's why it still needs U.S. support.
O.k. enough of my complaining but I am worried about the one sport I truly love.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
And what happens when on a few occasions the wrong ones win. If you were a skater you would feel the pain. You don't seem to care if a skater is wronged as long as someone, anyone wins.
Joe
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- Dec 16, 2006
Wasn't there also a mobster involved in this who was never heard from again after being arrested?
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- Mar 19, 2006
I don't see that, it is not difficult IMO and others (mostly non fans) that I have been explaining it to, seem to think it is not as hard as they once thought. Here again the realtime scoreboard would (has) help this understanding 2 fold. Most do not want a lecture on how it works at the beginning of the "show" they want to follow along and learn as they go. Also this way they can pretend to know what is going on as the routine is going along.
It really is not distracting and get the feeling everyone will be able to see and judge it in the future. I think it is going to help.The rest of the post I do agree with to a an extent.
amber68:thumbsup: ITA
I remember something, because this mobster (of the Russian mafia) was arrested in Italy. The United States asked for the extradition, but I think it's all in a stalemate. Italy doesn't want to extradite him, but I don't know why? Maybe because he knows something more (maybe about Speedy?, the Russian fed?, the French fed?).
He was wiretapped by the Italian police, when he called Marina Anissina's mother reassuring her that her daughter will certainly win the gold medal. Also his conversations with Gailhaughet were intercepted. The French fed promised him a visum in exchange of his help (he had to deal with the Russian fed).
If someone knows more about that story and can explain better, because my memories are shady about that happening.
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- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
How wonderful that would be. To read their justification of their scoring. What a blast!!! You know there are thousands of viewers who have skated and know skating, that would put fear into the eyes of the judges.
Joe
I must respectfully disagree with the assertion that fans don't care one way or the other regarding CoP vs. 6.0. I have been noticing even while watching events on television, that the response to "for a total score of 138.58" is a lot less muted and subdued than the reaction that used to ensue with "5.7, 5.7, 5.6", etc. It's like the spectators are sitting there thinking, "Well, I don't know, is that a fair score,etc, etc," as opposed to the old system where any relatively knowledgeable spectator could pretty much figure out, if someone has gone out there and skated a lovely program and can't pull any higher than a 5.0, that something is rotten. I'm sorry, but -- and I'm only HALF joking when I say this -- booing bad marks was part of the fun of watching the sport. (And I'll get to the flip side of that in a minute.) Now, you just have no clue. It's not as -- interactive, if you will. And quite frankly, I think what $peedy (and others of his ilk in the ISU) LOVE about this system is there's NO MORE BOOING. Coddle those judges, after all, no matter how corrupt.
Now the flip side of this -- and I don't think any longtime fan here would disagree with me on this -- NOTHING beats the THRILL, for either the spectator or the skater, of seeing an absolutely BRILLIANT WOW!!! of a free skate, and then seeing and hearing "6.0, 6.0, 5.9". Arenas went nuts! What a thrill to watch!! (My only complaint about the one event I've ever attended in person, the 2001 Worlds, was that it was the first Worlds in 20 years where NO ONE got 6s; I would have loved to have been in the building for a 6!). And I think it's going to make MUCH more of a statement, years down the road, when discussing classic programs, to mention the 6s Michelle got at 98 Nationals, then it would be to talk about, oh, I don't know, let's say Mao Asada pulls 165 points at Worlds this year or something. Doesn't quite have the same resonance, does it?
(And I don't even know if 165 would be way too high, or not high enough, for a really fine program on par with Kwan's classics. For that fact alone, I find the whole system really irritating.....) [And yes, I could learn more about CoP, all about CoP, yada yada yada, but the fact that they've put in a system that REQUIRES such extensive learning to be understandable -- I rather resent that.]
Now the flip side of this -- and I don't think any longtime fan here would disagree with me on this -- NOTHING beats the THRILL, for either the spectator or the skater, of seeing an absolutely BRILLIANT WOW!!! of a free skate, and then seeing and hearing "6.0, 6.0, 5.9". Arenas went nuts! What a thrill to watch!! (My only complaint about the one event I've ever attended in person, the 2001 Worlds, was that it was the first Worlds in 20 years where NO ONE got 6s; I would have loved to have been in the building for a 6!). And I think it's going to make MUCH more of a statement, years down the road, when discussing classic programs, to mention the 6s Michelle got at 98 Nationals, then it would be to talk about, oh, I don't know, let's say Mao Asada pulls 165 points at Worlds this year or something. Doesn't quite have the same resonance, does it?
(And I don't even know if 165 would be way too high, or not high enough, for a really fine program on par with Kwan's classics. For that fact alone, I find the whole system really irritating.....) [And yes, I could learn more about CoP, all about CoP, yada yada yada, but the fact that they've put in a system that REQUIRES such extensive learning to be understandable -- I rather resent that.]
ITA Jonny!!! The public doesn't understand the scoring and never will. It's true that the rules of COP are written, but the general fans (80% of the public) aren't interested in reading those rules. The public doesn't understand if 160 points is good or bad. With the 6.0 system it was all more transparent and accesible to the general public.
I somewhat disagree about the audience not knowing whether a certain score is appropriate. I went to Canadian Nationals a few weeks back and the audience clearly figured out when a good score was posted; there was usually a reaction as soon as the TES was announced.
However, I must say I'm sick of the contortionist spinning. Something in the rules has to be changed about this, much the same way something was done about excessive Biellman and catchfoot spins and spirals.
However, I must say I'm sick of the contortionist spinning. Something in the rules has to be changed about this, much the same way something was done about excessive Biellman and catchfoot spins and spirals.
I think it's not the same reaction as when the public saw a 6.0. We can't deny that, because 6.0 represented the perfect score. On the other hand a certain amount of points doesn't mean that.
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- Jun 21, 2003
My first thought about fans' preference was, 6.0 of one and half a dozen of the other.
But I do agree with Jonnycoop and Gio about the fun of scoring along with the judges (and booing the marks that you don't like) in the case of the live audience. As figure skating, at least in the United States, continues to lose television exposure, I believe the future of the sport will depend on attracting fans to actually come to the arena for competitions and shows.
We need to do everything we can to give them their money's worth.
But I do agree with Jonnycoop and Gio about the fun of scoring along with the judges (and booing the marks that you don't like) in the case of the live audience. As figure skating, at least in the United States, continues to lose television exposure, I believe the future of the sport will depend on attracting fans to actually come to the arena for competitions and shows.
We need to do everything we can to give them their money's worth.
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