2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

[Scott512]

Did anyone translate and bring here Polina Shelepen's interview? If no, should i?

Of course you should.

 

[Watch]

Polina Shelepen gave a great interview about her current work as a coach and her past as a competitor. Hope to see her standing next to some high level skaters one day. She sounds wonderfully passionate about her job and the kids she's teaching. Never lose that passion, Polina!

 

[readernick]

De

Oopsy, i don't know how that came out, sorry for the mistake but the point still stands about how all these top coaches take skaters (at what age depends on the methods) and as soon as they are not competitive, they're out. (either ignoring them, or sometimes directly asking them to leave)

I don't recall Eteri screaming and sexually harassing students, so again all these unverified bold claims.

Brian Orser is listed as Gabrielle's second coach, so technically he's coaching her, he sits with her in the KnC during the most important competitions (Worlds, Nationals) and in the past i recall him taking the merits for bringing her to the podium at Worlds (just sayin')

With Mishin and Moskvina i said something completely different: not just that they teach adult coaches, but they take not very great talents and actually try to make them competitive. Look at Mishin this season: you probably know Samodurova and Tuktamysheva but this season that group actually really tried to make everyone successful, even the boys. And it's worth noting that Samodurova (as talented as she is, one of my favourites) has never been one of their best talents from Russia and now she is European Champion, a title more popular previous talents like Sotnikova, Sotskova or Radionova never won.

Other coaches also take weaker skaters but often as a way to experiment things they then maybe apply to their top students, or they take them to make money but not with the goal of making them successful for real.

About Eteri, at this point we know her way of coaching and i don't believe there is much else we don't know: she created from the start a super competitive environment of very young girls and boys with the goal of making everyone successful, trying new things with them and learning by their mistakes and then correcting these mistakes with the next generations. If you re-read Polina Tsurskaya's interview she did earlier this season, you'd realize that they created a group that is so competitive where the skater doesn't really need someone who screams at him/her, they see the next generations doing things better than them every single day in the rink, so it's either try to close the gap and work more (and risk) or rest and stay behind.

I agree that's not everyone, if you like more mature skaters this is not your cup of tea, but that's her system and the results speak for themselves.

If you look at junior nationals you understand why she is so obsessed with 12-13 years old: everything looks perfect (look at Valieva's SP), it's too early for the skater to actually think about what they're doing so they just do it.

At the end of the day she is pushing the sport forward more than any other coaches before her, it's unprecedented (cause yes the sports evolved in the past but not this fast), and as much as other coaches can bash her, she brought the best results in figure skating in Russia of the past 4-5 years, she earned that position and RusFed knows that group pushes the others to work more, if you start to bring someone else in that position, Russia will lose dominance in ladies figure skating. It's a very cynical pragmatic way to see things, but it is what it is.

Rafael Arturnian also has success with skaters who aren’t naturally gifted. (Ashley Wagner/ Adam Rippon) Orser also coaches many less talented students. So, it is not just the coaches you mentioned who do this. But, I have nothing but admiration for Mishin and especially Moskvina( whose pair teams and skaters I adore).

I don’t disagree with what you say regarding Eteri. The system does work. I think Eteri has a system
that is wonderful for certain skaters. ( regarding the way she treats her students though— look at the video of her in practice with Alina at Euros—- it is not a positive view—— Sergei Dudakov on the other hand appears calm and serious— I like his method more). I was just responding to the inaccuracies in your statements about other coaches, I think Eteri’s school is getting better, each new generation has better technique. The future or longevity of her future students may increase. I love many of the skaters from that school specifically Alena. But,also Trusova who I appreciate because she is fearless and athletic even if I don’t like her programs. Again, I don’t disagree with you. I just disagree with false equivalency.

 

[solani]

Eteri Tutberidze.

For real, i think you'll look at all of this 10-20 years from now and you'll see a lot of russian girls winning everything, they change every 2-3 years but most of them are all from Eteri.

In a way it was similar with Tarasova but TAT also managed all these skaters to stick out more i think also because she was a better choreographer and more capable at finding programs that can make her skaters unique, Eteri-Daniil tend to use the same formula so many times.

Granted that is something i think Eteri will learn as time goes by.

Yes. Then the next question would be - does Eteri want it to be like that? I don't know wether she has narcissist tendencies or not. If she wants to be the star, then we'll definitely not see a female skater who survives puberty from her group. The next years are going to be interesting in any case, but this question is one of the most interesting ones imo.

 

[Giltedge]

...Speculators gonna speculate, alligators gonna alligate, but if ..IF.. this is true, I demand LV to issue a special little accessories and scarfs for Tina, Masaru, Bonya, Shipa, Iriska and other pets as well (whom am I missing?). They are as important as the coaches! :dev2:

Londa.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bo81UIuAP6T/

 

[Sugar Coated]

Yeah nothing new under the sun concerning Russia's youngsters or Eteri methods or coach-student relationship. Let's count the american girls with 3-4 years old careers in gymnastics. McKayla Maroney competed in seniors only 3 years. Rebecca Bross, Nastia Lukin, Shawn Johnson, etc. all had short senior careers. But when US is dominating the sport the americans are not so virulent in their criticism. Japan has pretty much the same methods Russia has, but only Russians and especially Eteri are evil.

What Russia does in figure skating with the ladies is monstruos, but what US does in gymnastics is not? Want to see more of the russian ladies? Change the 3 per country rule. People act as if youngsters are not as interesting as the seniors, look in this forum who has the most popular boards, the most views on video platforms. Hell, I fall in love again with figure skating during the last 4 years thanks to russian ladies.

There is currently immense criticism of gymnastics in America. The karolyis were huge and now their methods are really being examined as harmful and abusive. Katelyn Ohasi just gained a lot of attention about how the way weight was handled and how the training methods broke her both mentally and physically causing her to leave the elite levels. She was better than Simone Biles and didn’t last due to the training culture, but is achieving huge success and enjoyment competing at the college level. Another example is Dominique Mucciano who literally sought emancipation for her parents and has since spoken out about the harmful culture.

 

[moriel]

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?79021-Polina-Shelepen-Interview
HUGE interview with Polina Shelepen

 

[readernick]

Well, I replied to the following:




I remember myself at the age of 14 when I told my parents who just spent a big chunk of their salary on my kimono that judo is not for me. I cited an example of my friends' daughter who decided to quit figure skating on her own. I could bring many more examples to support that I don't believe that today's teenagers are not capable of making decisions for themselves.

And what could be the less negative light to view your phrase that most of Eteri's students decline her services when they reach the legal age if I don't understand what you are talking about? Zhenya is the only case that I can attach to that. But this is a very specific case of her losing the biggest event to a younger team mate. And it has little to do with the theory of skaters dropping Eteri as soon as they reach legal age because they are not happy about her training methods.

Again you are responding to things you think I said not the words I wrote on the page. So, I will keep this response simple please listen to what I actually write rather than what you assume I mean:

1. Your personal experiences do not change scientific fact. Children’s brains are different. They aren’t fully developed. Their decision making processes are different. This is scientific fact.

2. The above being true ( also children having limited financial and legal freedoms) no child or young teenager is 100% free to make their own decisions which is the previous poster was suggesting. This is all my post was about.

3. I don’t think Eteri is necessarily more harmful for kids than other coaches. Her school provides structure and an environment that is probably perfect for some students and less than ideal for others. ( I don’t like some of her methods: saying rude things about former pupils in the media.. the way she treated Alina during Euros practice... but many coaches do some things which I don’t agree with that doesn’t make them bad coaches. )

4. My point about the skaters who left Eteri ( perhaps badly expressed) was again related to the 100% freedom comment of the previous skater. Some( not all) skaters who reached an age where they are capable of making good long term decisions chose to leave Eteri which suggests they may have been unhappy at a younger age when they did not have the ability or freedom to leave. Again, I am sure the same could be said about young skaters in other coaches’ schools too. It was not meant to insult her methods just to call into question the 100% freedom comment.

5. I just want all coaches and parents to think of the effect their choices have on their kids. Is winning really that important so as to risk all else? The decision would have to be based on the personality , mental, and physical strength of each child. Figure skating in all schools( not just Eteris) is potentially dangerous.

 

[Tolstoj]

Yes. Then the next question would be - does Eteri want it to be like that? I don't know wether she has narcissist tendencies or not. If she wants to be the star, then we'll definitely not see a female skater who survives puberty from her group. The next years are going to be interesting in any case, but this question is one of the most interesting ones imo.

Well she said in the interview for ISU that she very much enjoys the Kiss and Cry moments, but that's not the reason why her skaters don't last years and years, that's more Eteri-Sergei-Daniil willing to move on and bring always something new and better everytime, and you do it quicker with new juniors instead of keep working with the same one for 10 years.

I think Eteri wants all her skaters to be successful and win as much as possible while they are in the best shape which for her it is those 2-3 years when you are no longer a kid but puberty also hasn't come yet. So you can either see it as "they are all stars" or "nobody is a star".

If Samsonov becomes as successful as the girls, she will keep him for longer considering boys usually don't struggle with puberty as much as the girls.

 

[madison]

Rafael Arturnian also has success with skaters who aren’t naturally gifted. (Ashley Wagner/ Adam Rippon) Orser also coaches many less talented students. So, it is not just the coaches you mentioned who do this. But, I have nothing but admiration for Mishin and especially Moskvina( whose pair teams and skaters I adore).

I don’t disagree with what you say regarding Eteri. The system does work. I think Eteri has a system
that is wonderful for certain skaters. ( regarding the way she treats her students though— look at the video of her in practice with Alina at Euros—- it is not a positive view—— Sergei Dudakov on the other hand appears calm and serious— I like his method more). I was just responding to the inaccuracies in your statements about other coaches, I think Eteri’s school is getting better, each new generation has better technique. The future or longevity of her future students may increase. I love many of the skaters from that school specifically Alena. But,also Trusova who I appreciate because she is fearless and athletic even if I don’t like her programs. Again, I don’t disagree with you. I just disagree with false equivalency.

Sergey seems indeed demanding, strict, but very calm and serious, without impacting the emotional state of the skaters in a negative way.
On the other hand, Eteri, when in bad moods, seems like a bully for the skaters. I dont think skaters leave Team Tutberidze because necessarily want that, but because they can not bear the pressure put on them once they become weaker or less competitive or have injuries or personal issues.
Another fact that I dont like is that Eteri pushes her skaters to compete even if they have significant injuries.
But it is true that Eteri makes stars and probably neither Alina, Evgenia or Julia would have achieved in sport and beyond sport what they achieved without her.

 

[[email protected]]

Again you are responding to things you think I said not the words I wrote on the page. So, I will keep this response simple please listen to what I actually write rather than what you assume I mean:

1. Your personal experiences do not change scientific fact. Children’s brains are different. They aren’t fully developed. Their decision making processes are different. This is scientific fact.

2. The above being true ( also children having limited financial and legal freedoms) no child or young teenager is 100% free to make their own decisions which is the previous poster was suggesting. This is all my post was about.

3. I don’t think Eteri is necessarily more harmful for kids than other coaches. Her school provides structure and an environment that is probably perfect for some students and less than ideal for others. ( I don’t like some of her methods: saying rude things about former pupils in the media.. the way she treated Alina during Euros practice... but many coaches do some things which I don’t agree with that doesn’t make them bad coaches. )

4. My point about the skaters who left Eteri ( perhaps badly expressed) was again related to the 100% freedom comment of the previous skater. Some( not all) skaters who reached an age where they are capable of making good long term decisions chose to leave Eteri which suggests they may have been unhappy at a younger age when they did not have the ability or freedom to leave. Again, I am sure the same could be said about young skaters in other coaches’ schools too. It was not meant to insult her methods just to call into question the 100% freedom comment.

5. I just want all coaches and parents to think of the effect their choices have on their kids. Is winning really that important so as to risk all else? The decision would have to be based on the personality , mental, and physical strength of each child. Figure skating in all schools( not just Eteris) is potentially dangerous.

It is very easy. Either you want to have an open discussion on debatable topics including how the brain develops or you just put a lot of different words to mask the true purpose - for a millionth time here (not yours million specifically) express the dislike of Eteri. I don't know for sure but the phrase that most of Eteri's students decline her services as soon as they reach the legal age for me is the manifestation of a hater. Because the only skater who left her after reaching 18 is Medvedeva, her leave is a big drama to all parties, not a case for building simple theories. And when you write "most" you should be responsible for your words especially now that everything around Eteri is so heated.

 

[Edwin]

Trainers are task masters with an important job at hand: to bring the best out of their charges. Athletes demand this from their trainers, they depend on their guidance, knowledge, wisdom, tact and accept any decision without question or doubt.
Trainers need to be tough and strict at times, they need to be authoritative. They always need to have their complete focus, their full attention on the athletes, their capital, their pride, the reason why they apply themselves to the job 24/7. No 8 hour working days for any trainer that loves the job.
Trainers need to be emphatic, caring, comforting when need be, a substitute parent at times even to young athletes. Every emotion, gesture, lowering or raise of voice, glance has a purpose, and should be applied with measure, otherwise they lose their effect.

Training is an intense and demanding occupation, you cannot let yourself be emotionally drained after every session, you need to be fresh and ready the next day.
There is no place for favouritism or false emotions, you'd immediately fall through, for your charges see, hear and instinctively feel everything, they have a developed a sixth sense and will hold you accountable.

Just put yourself in the place of a trainer in charge of such talents as Zagitova, Kostornaya, Trusova, Shcherbakova: what and how would you do differently and why? A trainers' job is much harder than you imagine.

Of course some combinations of characters don't work out, the clashes become too frequent and turn into aversion of each other. This is the moment to split and leave for another trainer.

 

[flanker]

I would like to add to the conversation about "former Eteri students" that recently there was an interview with Polina Shelepen where she (among other things) have said this (I hope translator won't be offended):

-Eteri Georgievna is a strict trainer. How did this affect the motivation of skaters to train?
-For some reason, when people say that Eteri Georgievna is a strict trainer, they represent her as a monster. I still hear it from those parents of my students, who know that I trained with Tutberidze. They look at me like I’ve been to hell and come back alive. But any trainer at a high level will not always stroke the athlete on the head and ask him not to get upset. There are no such trainers in Russia...

- What is the wisest thing you heard from Eteri Georgievna?
- Oh, it is difficult (laughs). Here you can write a whole book. I will not quote literal quotes right now, just the most important things that I learned. She taught me to be a maximalist, critical of myself. There is a phrase which is still in my head: "You can always be better." Now I am already broadcasting this to my athletes. And I still treat myself this way.

And last but not least:

So weird: for some reason, many people think that I hate her, that our relations are bad, but this is not true. Yes, we broke up not as vanilla as in the movies. But this is life.

Edit: I see moriel has translated the whole interview, for which I'm very grateful. So I highly recommend everuybody to read it, esp. to those who think they "know" Eteri is evil. It is very, very different story from how they depict it.

 

[Fluture]

Can‘t we just talk about these jumps?

https://www.instagram.com/p/BtitE6wBt1u/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1im5ny6trycu8

It‘s such a shame that her JGP event wasn‘t so good, seeing her skate two clean programs at Nationals really showed her incredible talent. High, fully rotated and soft on the landing. And her spins are beautiful as well. She‘s fairly young but still very artistic for her age. I wish we could see her again this season. Since 3A is likely going to Worlds, maybe she could do the EYOF... But I don‘t think she‘s on the alternates list.

And also congrats to Team Panova, they‘ve brought up a few really promising skaters with great technique. (those lutzes are: :luv17: ) Kanysheva and Sinitsyna are really talented and I hope they‘ll continue to stay with her and improve further over the next few years.

Edit: Let’s talk about something else, maybe? Especially since our opinion on Eteri and her methods won‘t change. It‘s like beating a dead horse, no one can convince the other one, so what‘s the point even trying? Sometimes it‘s better not to talk about a topic too much or it‘ll be discussed to death. I certainly know what I‘m thinking about Eteri and I‘ve made it clear here before. That‘s it for me, unless new things are brought up, I‘ll stay out of this discussion. I don‘t want to try and restrict anyone‘s speaking but it‘s so tiring. There are so many Russian ladies... and so many events coming up. I feel like there certainly would be something else to spend our time on discussing.

 

[sweetice]

Since 3A is likely going to Worlds, maybe she could do the EYOF... But I don‘t think she‘s on the alternates list.

No chances, Anna is already confirmed.

I think there's still the possibility to see Sinitsyna again at the Elder Age.

 

[moriel]

Sergey seems indeed demanding, strict, but very calm and serious, without impacting the emotional state of the skaters in a negative way.
On the other hand, Eteri, when in bad moods, seems like a bully for the skaters. I dont think skaters leave Team Tutberidze because necessarily want that, but because they can not bear the pressure put on them once they become weaker or less competitive or have injuries or personal issues.
Another fact that I dont like is that Eteri pushes her skaters to compete even if they have significant injuries.
But it is true that Eteri makes stars and probably neither Alina, Evgenia or Julia would have achieved in sport and beyond sport what they achieved without her.

Some quotes from a recent interview with Polina Shelepen, Eteri's student. You may want to check it out, it has some insights on Eteri's "bully" personality.

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?79021-Polina-Shelepen-Interview
"As far as I remember Eteri Georgievna - no matter how tired she was, what problems she had and how she felt when she came to the rink, she was always fine on the ice. It was giving me a charge. I want my athletes at work to see me the same - full of strength and desire to coach."

"For some reason, when people say that Eteri Georgievna is a strict coach, they picture her as a monster. I still hear it from those parents of my students, who know that I trained with Tutberidze. They look at me like I’ve been to hell and come back alive. But any coach at high level will not always stroke the athlete's head and ask him not to get upset. There are no such coaches in Russia. This did not discourage us, because we all understood perfectly - the coach wants us to be better. Nobody shouted at us simply because of bad mood. If we scolded, there was a reason. When you love your coach, there is no thought that you can get angry or upset at him because of criticism and rigor. He scolded - you went and corrected, did well, and now you have already been praised."

"I will not bring literal quotes right now, just the most important things that I learned. She taught me to be a maximalist, critical of myself. In my head I hear her [Eteri] saying: "You can always be better." Now I am already broadcasting this to my athletes. And I still treat myself this way."

"In general, I always was reading a lot. Eteri Georgievna got me used to it. It is important that you are always busy with something. You can not come home and laze around - this is what makes you relax. You need to be in good shape. The head should work even when the muscles are relaxed. There was a story, I am a bit ashamed to even remember it now. We went to compete, got stuck in traffic. And Eteri Georgievna asked me to tell a certain poem. I did not know it, excused myself somehow, but Eteri Georgievna told me so many verses from memory! I thought - wow, how she even manages to have time for everything."

 

[Georgya]

I would not lump gymnastics and figure skating together as if they were interchangeable. Nowadays it is very common for female gymnasts from any country, not just US, to be in it for one quad and then look for something else after the olympics. Especially when they are from big federation with lots of depth and they are plagued by injuries (Johnson, Maroney and Bross) . Biles, Mustafina or Murakami are exceptions. And that trend IS being criticised. But it is another sport. Why would the success of the US gymnastics program keep the Figure skating community from criticising Eteri's method.
I personally am neutral to her methods, but I dont think your comparison to gymnastics makes sense. Especially when they are being criticised for it, and even more now with that huge Nassar abuse scandal.

That being said, I wouldn't lump all those gymnasts together and say their careers were short. Nastia Liukin competed senior nonstop from 2005 - 2009 and had a (failed) comeback in 2012. That's pretty long to me.

1. The system was criticised because a lot of "big people" closed their eyes to Nassar and failed to protect the girls from sexual abuse. I didn't read about parents revolted against their girls being replaced so soon by juniors like is suggested on this forum in russia case.

2. Nastia Liukin didn't return to big competion after 2008. Her 2012 thing was a trial she failed. Actually all her big medals were won during 3 years 2005-2008. That IS all her senior career. And I can give you another 10 examples like that from US gymnastics.

3.Why is so wrong for figure skaters to have an olympic cycle career and then chose something else? Studies? Shows? etc.. Just because US have collegiate gymnastics, doesn't mean the rest of the world is out of options.

4. Figure skating and Gymnastics are very similar, you have to start trainning young like 6-7 yo. What you may like as a child you may not like as a teen or young adult. I was so disturbed when a read a sergei grinkov confession that he actually disliked skating, he probably did it because of pressure, not to dissapoint his partner, his familly, his coach, country, fans. This is why I actually support shorter senior career for certain sports. Also the risks of injury in figure skating or gymnastics are incomparable higher than other sports. It's "normal" to run after a ball and to kick it, it's not normal for the human body to do 4 revolutions jumping on the ice or a tsukahara.

 

[[email protected]]

Edit: Let’s talk about something else, maybe? Especially since our opinion on Eteri and her methods won‘t change. It‘s like beating a dead horse, no one can convince the other one, so what‘s the point even trying? Sometimes it‘s better not to talk about a topic too much or it‘ll be discussed to death. I certainly know what I‘m thinking about Eteri and I‘ve made it clear here before. That‘s it for me, unless new things are brought up, I‘ll stay out of this discussion.

New things or false claims which I will keep refuting.

 

[Fluture]

New things or false claims which I will keep refuting.

Then you‘ll have to have much time and patience on your hands if you want to keep refuting everything you personally see as a false claim. But good luck, I guess.

 

[Nocturne]

1. The system was criticised because a lot of "big people" closed their eyes to Nassar and failed to protect the girls from sexual abuse. I didn't read about parents revolted against their girls being replaced so soon by juniors like is suggested on this forum in russia case.

2. Nastia Liukin didn't return to big competion after 2008. Her 2012 thing was a trial she failed. Actually all her big medals were won during 3 years 2005-2008. That IS all her senior career. And I can give you another 10 examples like that from US gymnastics.

3.Why is so wrong for figure skaters to have an olympic cycle career and then chose something else? Studies? Shows? etc.. Just because US have collegiate gymnastics, doesn't mean the rest of the world is out of options.

4. Figure skating and Gymnastics are very similar, you have to start trainning young like 6-7 yo. What you may like as a child you may not like as a teen or young adult. I was so disturbed when a read a sergei grinkov confession that he actually disliked skating, he probably did it because of pressure, not to dissapoint his partner, his familly, his coach, country, fans. This is why I actually support shorter senior career for certain sports. Also the risks of injury in figure skating or gymnastics are incomparable higher than other sports. It's "normal" to run after a ball and to kick it, it's not normal for the human body to do 4 revolutions jumping on the ice or a tsukahara.

It is similar but still a different sport. And not everyone follows both only because they are interested in one of them. That's why I dont understand how you imply that people of the figure skating community should feel wrong in criticising something about figure skating just because something seemingly similar is being done in another sport?
Besides, just because you think competing only at national competitions in 2009 and 2012 does not count, it wont delete those years from Nastia's career, which still included 3 worlds and one olympics which is fine. Someone like Laurie Hernandez lasted one season only, that's what I would call a short career. But let's agree to disagree.