Caroline and Marai have to WAIT!

[Cal Girl]

The age rules should not be changed. And I do not think there should ever be an age cap, especially because we would have no decent men, pairs or dancers.
On the Puberty info. It is normal for runners, gymnasts, skaters and any athlete who has a low body fat content not go through puberty until 15, 16 some even older. Once a girl reaches 17 or so they may have to start hormones to cycle because the body needs to develop bone density. No one wants weak bones after years of pounding your body on the ice.
Mirai, Caroline and the rest of the 13 and 14 old crew who are at the top ranks have a tremendous change coming on. Even if they have grown a few inches their body has yet to change. Some girls get their periods very early and grow for many years. Some have the onset of puberty and grow immediately in every direction.
Either way it will affect how they jump and how they spin. That is physics. That is why good technique helps. If you have to re-learn everything it takes a lot of time and is very frustrating.
I worry for 2010 because all the girls everyone is so keen on right now will be going through their final growth issues and adjusting to their bodies. I think it will be a different group who is at the top then. Likely someone who has already started dealing with these issues right or is just over them and coming into their prime with their new found strength that their now developed body has given them.

 

[antmanb]

I do agree with the age rules but i think it makes no sense to have the two different age rules - either make the senior GP circuit age rules the same as the ISU championships or lower the ISU championships age rule to the same as the GP otherwise it makes no sense.

Ant

 

[Tinymavy15]

I do agree with the age rules but i think it makes no sense to have the two different age rules - either make the senior GP circuit age rules the same as the ISU championships or lower the ISU championships age rule to the same as the GP otherwise it makes no sense.

Ant

right. if you can't do worlds or the olympics until 15, then the skaters should not be allowed to do natioanls or the grand prix either. it dosen't make any sense. all or nothing.

 

[chuckm]

right. if you can't do worlds or the olympics until 15, then the skaters should not be allowed to do natioanls or the grand prix either. it dosen't make any sense. all or nothing.

Nationals has nothing to do with international skating. In the US, the level of the skate is based strictly on skill. A skater becomes a Senior when he/she passes the Senior skills test. US Nationals Seniors often skate in Junior international events (Megan Oster, this year). Each federation has its own rules for its own skaters, and the ISU has no authority to interfere with National requirements.

International skating is based strictly on age, and there is some overlap. Skaters 15-18 (15-20 for Male Pairs and Ice Dancers) may skate in both Senior and Junior ISU Championships.

 

[Tinymavy15]

okay. but that still leaves the grand prix events, esp the grand prix final. Some years the best in the world met there. I assume that europeans is also consisdered a internationl event. I know that these events do not carry the pressure of worlds or the olympics... but the skaters are still expected to skate very competivly with the same difficult elements. We all know that these skater are practciing these hard elements. Forbiding them from showing them at worlds is just silly. If the ISU really wanted to help these young skaters, coaches would not push them so hard to learn these difficult elements at such as young age, often before some basic skills and tecinque is learned properly.

 

[mskater93]

The rule is for ISU championships:
Euros
4CC
Worlds Olys

It should include International A events (Sr GP) but allow International B events for one year younger than championships/A event

 

[jsteam4501s]

At this point in time, if I were to ask all of you a poll question: Agree or disagree - the Ladies Champion of the 2010 Vancouver Olympics will be a skater who as of right now has not yet skated in any Senior event? - how many of you would say "disagree"?

Actually, my first guess would be that you'd split 50-50 between the two answers.

 

[satorare]

Today, for a newbie skater to compete with the top, big jumps are almost indispensable. Kwan didn't have the same problem against Lu Chen. It's too early to tell.

 

[antmanb]

right. if you can't do worlds or the olympics until 15, then the skaters should not be allowed to do natioanls or the grand prix either. it dosen't make any sense. all or nothing.

I don't totally agree with this - the international senio circuit is one thing but the national circuit is a complete other thing - if the national federations don't have age limits (or have lower ones) i don't really mind that its just the international circuit that i think should be the same.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Today, for a newbie skater to compete with the top, big jumps are almost indispensable. Kwan didn't have the same problem against Lu Chen. It's too early to tell.

What?? Kwan did a 7 triple program that included two triple Lutzes and a triple toe-triple toe combination to beat Lulu in 1996....in what way is that not the big jumps? Especially at the time? Its all relative.

None of the potential challengers at worlds this season except Kimmie and Miki even have a full set of triples (up to lutz) so they need another big ticket jump the others don't do if they're even vaguely going to challenge (and the two full a full set of triples also have their big ticket jumps they might attempt as well).

Skating moves on year after year - this worlds will be the eleventh since Kwan beat Lulu so their no surprises that we will likely see harder jumps at this worlds than we saw 11 years ago.

Ant

 

[axelheart]

I don't think Kwan outjumped Lulu to win the title. The USA should be stronger than China in this sport, the judges were well aware about that. Kwan was just lucky to be born in that country at that time. Mirai and Caroline must face far tougher competitions ahead.

 

[mskater93]

What?? Kwan did a 7 triple program that included two triple Lutzes and a triple toe-triple toe combination to beat Lulu in 1996....in what way is that not the big jumps? Especially at the time? Its all relative.

Ant

Sorry, Ant, but Kwan did NOT do the 3T-3T at that Worlds. She shoehorned an extra 3T at the end of her performance right before the stop because she only did a 2T on the first one. I think the first Worlds she did the 3T-3T was 2000.

 

[Tinymavy15]

Sorry, Ant, but Kwan did NOT do the 3T-3T at that Worlds. She shoehorned an extra 3T at the end of her performance right before the stop because she only did a 2T on the first one. I think the first Worlds she did the 3T-3T was 2000.

yes. you are right. also, her chreogrphy and interpration of the music was very good- almoat as good as Lu's. It was close, but kwan edged her out.

At this point in time, if I were to ask all of you a poll question: Agree or disagree - the Ladies Champion of the 2010 Vancouver Olympics will be a skater who as of right now has not yet skated in any Senior event? - how many of you would say "disagree"?

exatly my point!!! who knows what will happen to these girls in three years? If they were given the chance to skate sooner, I owuld deffinetly place them as a threat to internatioal skaters. Look what happened to Naomi Nari Nam. She skated the performnace of a lifetime in 2000 nationals, was too young to go to worlds. Whe she was old enough the combonation of injury and growth had taken thier toll and she did not get her chance. Who could diagree that Naomi had a good chance of mealing if she skated like she did at natioanls at worlds!

 

[antmanb]

Sorry, Ant, but Kwan did NOT do the 3T-3T at that Worlds. She shoehorned an extra 3T at the end of her performance right before the stop because she only did a 2T on the first one. I think the first Worlds she did the 3T-3T was 2000.

My mistake! You are right - Worlds 1996 was the only competition that season that Kwan didn't hit the 3t/3t and she did the plan B triple toe at the end of the program instead of a double axel.

Still she did 7 triples which was the benchmark at the time.

Ant

 

[Tinymavy15]

My mistake! You are right - Worlds 1996 was the only competition that season that Kwan didn't hit the 3t/3t and she did the plan B triple toe at the end of the program instead of a double axel.

Still she did 7 triples which was the benchmark at the time.

Ant

the only time? I only remember michelle landing it a few times.... i think the 1999 worlds... but i am not sure.

 

[Mafke]

who knows what will happen to these girls in three years? If they were given the chance to skate sooner, I owuld deffinetly place them as a threat to internatioal skaters.

You're not paying attention, the powers-that-be in the sport have decided they don't want very young champions in the ladies division for several reasons, one of which being that very young champions do not deal well with being champion (being a reigning champion is probably harder than becoming champion). And champions that don't deal with media or who decide they can't have or don't want professional skating careers are bad box office (and bad box office is bad for the sport).

Had Baiul, Lipinski and Hughes done better jobs as reigning (and skating!) olympic champions (like Hammil, Witt and Yamaguchi) I assume age restrictions would not be what they are at present, but they all had poor professional skating careers (for different reasons) and we're got age limits (on balance a good thing).

And note that Nari Nam did not deal well with her early fame either (sidetracking training in favor of commercials and the like).

The little girls can compete with the ladies, but when they win they do much worse off the ice and on professional ice (on average) and that has to be a concern,

 

[Spun Silver]

Interesting - is this fact or theory? While it makes a certain sense, on the whole my reaction is: yet another factor diminishing the credibility of skating results.

How can competitions be rigged to produce durable stars and still be credible as sports?

Sports (or any other competitions, really) always have to be based on the victory of the best - however best is defined.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I don't think Mafke was saying a competition was rigged.

He's saying, from what I read, that little girls if they win do not make for grande dames of the Sport.

I'm not so sure that was the reason for the Rule but it could have been a factor.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

I only remember Michelle landing it a few times.... I think the 1999 worlds... but I am not sure.

According to Heather's jump statistics

http://heatherw.com/mk/jumps.htm

in the 1995/96 season Michelle did a triple toe/triple toe at Skate America, at the Champions Series Final (forerunner of the Grand Prix), and at U.S. Nationals (double-footed).

At World championships she did a triple-triple in 1997, 2000, 2001 (both qualifying round and LP) and 2002 qualifying round.

She also did it in the 1997 Championship Series Final and the 2001 Grand Prix Final.

It will be interesting to see what the current crop of young ladies will accomplish.

 

[Spun Silver]

OK, I was fuzzy. Rules are designed to produce desirable champions in a way that obscures who is actually the best skater - if Mafke is right about this being a key factor.