If it's not already that.
Caroline and Marai have to WAIT!
- Thread starter Tinymavy15
- Start date
If it's not already that.
Skating at the Senior level is a very serious business and the competition is very intense. 13, 14 and barely-15 year olds should be able to enjoy their skating until their bodies are ready and they are emotionally mature enough to handle the pressures and disappointments (and there are bound to be many of the latter along the way). Right now, the media is giving Caroline and Mirai plenty of play, but at the Junior level, they won't face unreasonable expectations followed by the merciless drubbing from the media that will await them as international seniors, if they don't quite measure up to the hype.
I do not disagree with your point. What I do disagree with is what is really happening. To wit: Do you remember that Mao was not old enough to compete at 2006 Olympics or Worlds , but she participated and won the Senior GP events, including the Final--scarcely two months prior to Olympics? Pray tell me what protection she was receiving!
If it is protection that ISU desires, then it should limit the number of triples in a junior program and disallow participation in Senior events until the time they are actually World/Olympics age eligible. That, is reasonable AND fair--if in fact age is to be considered as an eligibility factor.
This I can agree with. No need for juniors to hit the senior Grand Prix circuit until they are age eligible for the big senior events. That's why there's also a Junior Grand Prix Circuit, IMO. Seriously though, I do think Mao Asada was protected from a lot of pressure and expectation by not being allowed to compete in the Olympics and Worlds last season.
Also, the idea of limiting the number of triples allowed in junior programs is a good idea. I know a lot of people won't agree with me, but they already limit the length of junior programs and I think limiting the number of (particularly) triples/ combos would help to limit the stress being placed on immature bones, joints and muscles. It does take a toll, and skating should not be something that one can expect to be virtually incapacitated by come the late teens or early twenties if lucky.
I'm always sad to hear of the girls who are already battling chronic back/hip/knee/groin injuries at the tender age of 15/16. It's a sport, so there's always a risk, but medically it is well known that younger bodies have a tougher time absorbing the constant strain.
At this rate, none of the great skaters of today are going to be anywhere near the ice by the age of 40 +, like so many of our great champions of the past who are still doing show skating.
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2007
both Caroline and Mary will burn out. they are just a little bit too good at the moment.
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
exactly. mao was doing her most difficult jumps and the longer 4 minuite program through the grand prix (senior) and the GPF, which she won. She landed TWO triple axels at her nationals, but then was denied a trip to torino. I am sure that there is little doubt that if she went, she would have won. THe gold medalist, her countryman, shizukia, skated a clean, but conservitove program and Mao could have easily beaten it even without a triple axel. Noe she must wail until 2010, and who knows what that wait will bring. The year before, as a junior, mao landed a triple axel at junior worlds to win... as well as triple triples. Lately, the junior circut has become just as difficult as seniors... maybe even more so. the only diffrence- it's not televised.
Mao did not even win Junior Worlds 2006, she didn't win Skate America, and she didn't win the 2006 GPF, so I don't think it is fair to say she would have won the Olympics if she had been able to go. Pressure affects Mao just as it does anyone else. She has shown that she is not invincible.
I think it would make sense to keep underage skaters out of the Grand Prix, since they can't compete at ISU Championships, but that is not going to happen. However, I am glad that Caroline and Mirai aren't moving up to the GP next season. Just because Mao did it and succeeded doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Yu-Na Kim stayed in the JGP last season, and it didn't hurt her at all. Perhaps if she HAD moved up with Mao, her back would be in even worse condition than it is now.
When Caroline and Mirai they move up to the GP in the 2008-2009 season, they will be age-eligible for Worlds and their reputations won't be any less stellar than they are now.
I think it would make sense to keep underage skaters out of the Grand Prix, since they can't compete at ISU Championships, but that is not going to happen. However, I am glad that Caroline and Mirai aren't moving up to the GP next season. Just because Mao did it and succeeded doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Yu-Na Kim stayed in the JGP last season, and it didn't hurt her at all. Perhaps if she HAD moved up with Mao, her back would be in even worse condition than it is now.
When Caroline and Mirai they move up to the GP in the 2008-2009 season, they will be age-eligible for Worlds and their reputations won't be any less stellar than they are now.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2006
RD, looks like you're finally beginning to see the light of Mao (and Miki)! 
In 2005, Mao's score at Kitchener was only 6 points lower than Cohen's at Moscow. Adding one spin and a triple loop in SP covered the difference easily. That's why she could beat Cohen eight month later in Paris.
But the situation is totally different now. Zhang's score is 20-30 points lower than those of the top ladies. It's better to try out and master harder jumps before entering senior competitions. Same thing applies to Nagasu. Having 3/3 and/or 3A will have big effects on PCS.
But the situation is totally different now. Zhang's score is 20-30 points lower than those of the top ladies. It's better to try out and master harder jumps before entering senior competitions. Same thing applies to Nagasu. Having 3/3 and/or 3A will have big effects on PCS.
RD, looks like you're finally beginning to see the light of Mao (and Miki)!
eh? :scratch:
I always plugged Mao as the favorite for the upcoming worlds. True, but she is a year older and has had to adjust to pressure, which she did NOT have in the 2005-2006 GP since she knew she could not go to the Olympics.
My point was that it is not valid to say Mao would have won the Olympics, based on her performances in the 2005 GP series. She may have landed 3As in her Japanese Nationals 2006, but she did not win---Fumie Suguri did. That showed that Mao indeed WAS affected by pressure. After the 2005 GPF, Mao did not win another competition until NHK 2006, and since she was wasn't facing Ando there, she could skate with supreme confidence.
I didn't see her Japan nats performance in 06; did she fall?
If she successfully landed 3A's though I think it might be debatable that she succumbed to pressure (this is without seeing the performance, though- I can't know for sure without seeing it). Maybe so much emphasis on those jumps threw her concentration off on everything else.
Overall, I agree with your general argument though. That Olympics was not Mao's to win at all. The pressure of the O's basically affected everyone in some way- even the winner.
This worlds will be a test of Mao's nerves to the extreme. I've heard the Japanese press is very aggressive and that could just add to it. Also Kimmie's since she has never been the favorite. Kimmie admitted to feeling a lot of pressure at US Nats (I don't blame her because I figured she would) but after she made the first mistake she really pulled it in for a relatively strong performance.
But she (or her coach) has made remarks regarding the Japanese (that they will be under immense pressure)- and while this will likely be true, it worries me that they'd say that in such a way- almost like they may be counting on them to collapse under it.
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
maybe it was not her's to win, but she deffinelty could have won. Assuming she placed in the top five after the short and did a resonably clean long she probably woudl have won, or at least beat sasha and irina. even without the triple axel, her content of the freeskate was much harder than the other ladies... at least one triple triple with a loop instead of a toe.. a difficult triple loop0double loop-double loop, lots of bellimans and got PCS. It also goes without saying that she could have won the worlds as well... beating kimmie, atough that would have been more difficult. kimmie's skate at worlds was much harder than shizukia's at the olympics. Still, mao could have easily done it.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
If you did see it, would you decide to give her gold based on one jump? Just asking, to understand how you critique.
Joe
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2004
Let's have some realistic assessment of junior skaters please.
Asada was and skated like a junior last year and had no toe-loop or loop (or was it a salchow?) at any rate her 3ax came at the expense of about two other triples. Had she gone to Turin I really doubt that she could have won.
Zhang (for all the potential I see there which is a _lot_) flutzes for all she's worth (indication of poor edge control), has childlike head/limb/body proportions (maybe indicating she's not done growing) and she overdoes the contortionist shtick FLEXIBILITY IS NOT A SKATING SKILL!!!!!! (sorry I get the urge to scream that at the top of my lungs every once in a while)
Asada was and skated like a junior last year and had no toe-loop or loop (or was it a salchow?) at any rate her 3ax came at the expense of about two other triples. Had she gone to Turin I really doubt that she could have won.
Zhang (for all the potential I see there which is a _lot_) flutzes for all she's worth (indication of poor edge control), has childlike head/limb/body proportions (maybe indicating she's not done growing) and she overdoes the contortionist shtick FLEXIBILITY IS NOT A SKATING SKILL!!!!!! (sorry I get the urge to scream that at the top of my lungs every once in a while)
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Have to agree, Flexibilty is not a skating thing!!.
Every athlete in whatever Sport has flexibility or he/she would be in trouble. Not every skater can be a contortionist and it doesn't matter. What skaters require are good lines by turning out at the knees and feet. Let the actual skating determine the skater.
Dancers in Cirque du Soleil do need extreme flexibility especially in the back.
Joe
Every athlete in whatever Sport has flexibility or he/she would be in trouble. Not every skater can be a contortionist and it doesn't matter. What skaters require are good lines by turning out at the knees and feet. Let the actual skating determine the skater.
Dancers in Cirque du Soleil do need extreme flexibility especially in the back.
Joe
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2006
The factor of flexibility is "additional" to the elements. The fact that the skaters can perform the quality element AND with MORE difficulty by adding to the difficult "flexablity" move. The straighter the leg in a Beilmann, the more leg "attitude" in a layback, higher extension in the spiral, etc...
Flexy, and the ability to be more than another seems to be a factor in FS for a long time. Look at Sonia's leg in a spiral, Peggy's and Sasha's.
Fact of the matter is, the more contortion that is applied to the move (IMO the proper way to view / analyze) the harder it is to do the "fundamental" move.
"It's evolution." And it make sense to me, it is harder and IMO the human body is always beautiful - except opening a jar of pickles in the nude.
Carolines "pearl" is even more impressive than her beilmann - it is a 90 degree invert and off center of balance. the amount she can compensate and still stay centered is fantastic. I see the POV that some think it is not as pretty, that is just relative to the viewer. But the difficulty is increased as sports do.
Flexy, and the ability to be more than another seems to be a factor in FS for a long time. Look at Sonia's leg in a spiral, Peggy's and Sasha's.
Fact of the matter is, the more contortion that is applied to the move (IMO the proper way to view / analyze) the harder it is to do the "fundamental" move.
"It's evolution." And it make sense to me, it is harder and IMO the human body is always beautiful - except opening a jar of pickles in the nude.
Carolines "pearl" is even more impressive than her beilmann - it is a 90 degree invert and off center of balance. the amount she can compensate and still stay centered is fantastic. I see the POV that some think it is not as pretty, that is just relative to the viewer. But the difficulty is increased as sports do.
Just as much as a fancy dress is. Skating has always required flexibility. It is getting more extreme, sports do that.
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