With respect to the layback.....I find that too many skaters these days are substituting back flexibility for proper hip position/leg turnout. And the judges do not seem to be noticing (not that they apparently notice much of anything in the way of proper positions in spins these days anyway, but that's another rant.) Skaters with less of a back bend but better hip position are actually more impressive overall IMO — for example, Angela Nikodinov had a stunning classic layback.
Caroline and Marai have to WAIT!
- Thread starter Tinymavy15
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With respect to the layback.....I find that too many skaters these days are substituting back flexibility for proper hip position/leg turnout. And the judges do not seem to be noticing (not that they apparently notice much of anything in the way of proper positions in spins these days anyway, but that's another rant.) Skaters with less of a back bend but better hip position are actually more impressive overall IMO — for example, Angela Nikodinov had a stunning classic layback.
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- Jul 11, 2003
ITA. The classic attitude position in ballet is to bend at the upper back. In figure skating it seems to be at the lower back. The former does indeed make for a better hip and free leg position than the latter which resorts to acrobatics, and a dragging free leg.
However, for scoring I believe one just has to layback.
Joe
Let's put things in proper sequence. 2006 Junior World's was in the 2005-6 season. Mao had just won the Senior GP Final, edging out Irina Slutskaya who headed into Olympics 2006 Olympics as the clear favorite! Mao had won nearly everything, junior and senior during this 2005-6 season, with the exception of said 2006 Jr. World's. In fact the motto of every media expert pointed out that the eventual 2006 Olympic gold medalist would not have faced the best skater in the World because she (Mao) was age ineligible. That 2005-6 season was indeed, some season for Mao, and many think that year was her best shot to win the Olympic title. The following 2006-7 season (the current one) ,which she experienced all the other losses cited in the quote above, has been a bit less stellar for the young Japanese wonder. I think most agree that the age eligibility rules are not quite as consistent and even handed as the could be. And that one forbidding eligibility clause re World's and Olympics only, perhaps cost Mao the gold. We will never know. I am sure the topic will be revisited ad infinitum as the 2010 Olympics approach!
But, WHAT senior GP or international events have Mirai and Caroline competed in this year? That is who THIS thread is about, not Mao last year.
Well, yes and no. If landing that jump in effect flattened her performance, if Suguri and/or Ando were perfect and executed well I would put them above her. If, OTOH she attacked her program without mistakes and THEN threw in the 3A as a bonus, no one could have touched her.
I believe that it's more important how you EXECUTE the program as a whole rather than just focusing on one jump and letting that "flatten" the rest of everything. A balance has to be achieved- go for the reasonably difficult jumps (like 3-3's) and work on attacking the program. To me, attack is the difference between a flat, boring program and an inspiring, out-of-this-world performance. You can do all the jumps and hopping around you want and crank out mechanical, technically perfect programs but I am relatively unmoved unless you ALSO show joy and excitement out there. I also am unmoved by what I call "fake emoting"- when you deliberately make faces of pain to try to convey "emotion" that doesn't really exist. For example, Cohen was VERY guilty of this shortly before she quit.
Indeed the thread is about Mirai and Caroline having to wait until they are age eligible for Senior events--primarily Worlds's and Olympics. Certainly discussion about the pros and cons of their having to wait are relevant in such a thread.
P.S. You might wish to take a look at the opening post in this thread where Mao's situation is also mentioned! Check it out!
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- Jun 21, 2003
But...she could have. :yes:
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- Feb 5, 2004
Anyone could easily have done it given their content. Don't forget that Shizuka could have landed a 3lz/3lp - she'd done it in the past and could have done it in Torino if Mao was there. Shizuka had also been landing 3/3/3s in practice in practice in Torino.
Its futile and irrelevant to argue that Mao would or could have won in Torino because of the fact she didn't go, she couldn't go and we've never seen her perform under the pressure of a senior international championship. She didn't fair too well in the junior world championships in the Olympic year with nerves getting the better of her. We'll see what her nervs are like come worlds.
Ant
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- Feb 5, 2004
I would agree except the all important caveat that flexibilty has to be in addition to the skating skill and not instead of it. Sasha'a incredible free leg postiion in her spirals did not wow me until she had control of the edges. While she had shallow wobbling edges i was not impressed at all because she showed tons of flexibilty and little skating skill. Once she got the edges under control i was more impressed but didn't rate it as "the best" because there were other skaters who had deeper edges, more speed and less cross overs/speed building footwork in between the spirals with an excellent free leg position even though it wasn't quite as good as Sasha's.
Equally a Biellmann spin that that hits an amazing position but crawls around slowly and travels 10 metres across the rink should not be viewed as being as good as a Biellmann spin where the position is not quite there but rotates at the speed of a lambiel spin and is nailed to the centre.
For me, its skating skill first and foremost, demonstrated to at least an acceptable level before flexibilty can he considered an "enhancer" in the difficulty of a move.
Ant
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ITA:agree:
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- Jul 11, 2003
Flexibility is an overstated talent in figure skating because ALL sports have flexible players Where would Venus be jumping from one side of the Tennis court to the other without flexibility?
What we are talking about here is the ability to contort the body into an abnormal position which will produce a wow in the minds of spectators. Of course the contorted body must be able to keep on a skating edge (check out Alissa's body in her spins).
Sasha has flexibility as does Jenny Kirk. Does the height of the free leg in the spiral prove only one person has flexibility? Nonsense. I don't think flexibility should be judged. I don't think any skater should skate without it. It is the most basic need in ANY sport.
Joe
What we are talking about here is the ability to contort the body into an abnormal position which will produce a wow in the minds of spectators. Of course the contorted body must be able to keep on a skating edge (check out Alissa's body in her spins).
Sasha has flexibility as does Jenny Kirk. Does the height of the free leg in the spiral prove only one person has flexibility? Nonsense. I don't think flexibility should be judged. I don't think any skater should skate without it. It is the most basic need in ANY sport.
Joe
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- Mar 19, 2006
If they are judging just the flexibility - which I don't think they are - I see the complaint. But I don't believe they are. They are judging the skating and the difficulty that increases with the "abnormal positions." I see why they are doing it, and I see the issue in a few minds concerning the beauty, but here again we have the relativity issue, and most don't find it anything but impressive to "go a step further then" the same way as done before them.
"Wowing" the judges and spectators is a part of sports, the more flexible - as Joe points to Venus who IF she didn't have the flexibility would not be as good as she is. Others have the flexibility too, but if she is more flexible she will have an advantage. Same holds true of skating it appears in most minds.
More flexible = advantage.
More flexible while skating = harder.
This brings to mind that if the variations of, say the spread eagle, being the Bessy Squat and Cantilever, then it is a good argument that Sasha and Shizuka's Ina Baur is done in a way that could classify it as a different name?
"Wowing" the judges and spectators is a part of sports, the more flexible - as Joe points to Venus who IF she didn't have the flexibility would not be as good as she is. Others have the flexibility too, but if she is more flexible she will have an advantage. Same holds true of skating it appears in most minds.
More flexible = advantage.
More flexible while skating = harder.
This brings to mind that if the variations of, say the spread eagle, being the Bessy Squat and Cantilever, then it is a good argument that Sasha and Shizuka's Ina Baur is done in a way that could classify it as a different name?
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- Jul 11, 2003
I reiterate ALL SPORTS PEOPLE HAVE FLEXIBILITY. which must be used to attain their goal. Yes, soccer players too.
What I am reading in this thread is that only Sasha has flexibility or she has the most flexibility because it is perceived that she lifts her leg higher than others. Am I correct?
Is flexibility scoreable if the contestant did not reach her goal??
Should flexibility be scored at all whether learned from gymnastics or from ballet class?
And so what if one skater can contort her body better than Amber Corwin?
Should skaters stop competing if they can not do a verticle Charlotte spiral?
With enough flexibility one can become a contortionist. WOW.
Joe
What I am reading in this thread is that only Sasha has flexibility or she has the most flexibility because it is perceived that she lifts her leg higher than others. Am I correct?
Is flexibility scoreable if the contestant did not reach her goal??
Should flexibility be scored at all whether learned from gymnastics or from ballet class?
And so what if one skater can contort her body better than Amber Corwin?
Should skaters stop competing if they can not do a verticle Charlotte spiral?
With enough flexibility one can become a contortionist. WOW.
Joe
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- Mar 14, 2006
Are you kidding? When you're built like Venus all you have to do is stretch out your arm and flick your wrist.
http://www.astrologyforthesoul.com/vp/images/venus5.jpg
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- Jul 11, 2003
Kimmie has sufficient flexibility as does Sarah Hughes as does Michelle Kwan as does Bebe Liang and so on and so forth. When we get to Sasha, Alissa, Shizuka, etc., we can also talk about contortionism which they have in addition to the requisite flexibility. Acrobatics is a recognized dance form. If you put a high value on that, so be it. I don't.
Joe
They're still skating so much anyway that adding Worlds or Olympics would not be a big deal or make a significant difference. They still enter so many competitions!
To be honest, young boys and girls make the decision when they're young and started to train to go ahead with it, and injury is simply a natural consequence of professional sport. Any professional sport.
I'd like to see this rule change because it's a shame we won't get to see Caroline and Marai contend at senior Worlds until 2009!
To be honest, young boys and girls make the decision when they're young and started to train to go ahead with it, and injury is simply a natural consequence of professional sport. Any professional sport.
I'd like to see this rule change because it's a shame we won't get to see Caroline and Marai contend at senior Worlds until 2009!
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- Jan 22, 2004
I'd like to see this rule change because it's a shame we won't get to see Caroline and Marai contend at senior Worlds until 2009!
That's IF they make the team in 2009. They may seem like a sure bet right now but at their age, 2 years is a long time. Puberty, injuries, pressure, one or both could be completely out of the sport by then. Or they might just be beat by another little pipsqueak waiting in the wings. How many times have we seen kids have success at the Junior level, only to fizzle out as seniors? I'm certainly not saying that neither will be on the 2009 team, but I'm also not betting on them being there, it is just too soon to tell. It is possible that they will have peaked before then.
All that aside, I think the rule should stay as it is.
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- Jul 11, 2003
I'm not against the Rule but not for the reason that it prevents injuries. From what I read a few years ago, that hundreds of kids get injured while training to become Senior champions.
The Rule is good for me because it eliminates the childish style of skating from all those ohs and ahs, how cute and so young.
Joe
