Jeffrey Buttle out of Skate Canada's favour?

[iloveaxel]

It looks like the new CEO of Skate Canada is starting to lose patient with so-called artistic skaters who can not do jumps. His comments are pretty harsh...

http://www.canada.com/topics/sports/story.html?id=88c78c9d-59f1-4d3a-aeaa-7f0742190a5f&k=91079

But the rest of the message Canada took home from Tokyo Metropolitan Gym was sobering.

“The level just changed, in a year,” Slipchuk said. “People were wondering if the quad would ever become important again. (Czech) Tomas Verner shot from way down to way up, just with two Quads in the long. And it became evident after the (ladies’) short: your best clean skate without a triple-triple is going to put you fifth.”

“And the other message is, things change quickly now,” Thompson said. “You have (Italy’s) Carolina Kostner, nowhere last year, comes out in the short program, lands triple-triple and she’s third. In figure skating, we’ve come to expect people to always be in the same place, and I just don’t think that’s going to happen any more. Four-time world champion? That’s a very challenging thing under the new system.”

Worlds rookie Christopher Mabee of Tillsonburg, Ont., showed enough here to hint at greater things to come. He and Rochette may be our two best Olympic hopes, in singles.

“Chris can do quads. Give him time, he will be a force,” Thompson said. “Jeff (Buttle) had a truncated season, so let’s see how Jeff fares next year. But if you’re not doing quads, you’re not in the game. And I think that’s a good thing for the sport, to be honest.”

On Joannie...

“Sure, they can. I absolutely think that. Joannie certainly can, but it’s going to have to be Joannie who decides. She still has many aspects of her skating that are significantly better than most of the girls ahead of her. She is definitely worthy of that top group at worlds — but you have to deliver,” said Thompson

I feel bad for Joannie. Her confidence seems to be shattered again ias indicated in another post-worlds interview. This girl is still the best female skater Canada has produced for a long time, but she desperately needs a new coach and new training methology.

It looks like Jeffrey Buttle can no longer count on excellent choreography to medal or even get into top 5 on the international stage. The most shameful thing for Canada is that none of their top male skaters has a reliable 3A, let alone a quad.

I feel Canada is becoming an ice dancing country when jumps are basically a hit and miss for most elite single/pairs skaters.

:agree:

 

[temperboy28]

The article is being subtle about it but Buttle does not have the jumps to compete at the top level any longer. His final 3 years as an eligible will see him finish in the lower part of the top 10 regularly. The overall quality of his skating will keep him there but no more then that. He has hit his limit as far as jumps go, and it wont be enough to compete vs any of Joubert, Lambiel, Takahashi, Oda(who will do better then he did at this years worlds in the future), Plushenko(if he returns), and maybe even Lysacek and Verner.

Rochette needed to step it up before now. The judges have already lost respect for her. Every single program, whether her TES are higher or not, Emily Hughes now beats her on the PCS, it has happened multiple programs in a row now, and Hughes is no artisty standard bearer. Her score for only a fall in footwork and a few tight landings in the short program shows how they now perceive her. Her 5th place in the free skate was only because it was a splatfest that night, her PCS was only 12th best I think it was, so she came 5th not because the judges liked her that much, but because she delivered most of what she could on a night that was enough of a mess the judges were willing to allow her to get that high.

I feel very optimistic about our pairs and dance future. Our immediate future in mens not so much, just hope for top 10s from Buttle and/or Mabee that is it. Our womens future, now and in the future I dont hold any real hopes for.

 

[Vodka Shot]

I don't mind male skaters not being able to medal with-out the quad and I don't mind female skaters not being able to medal with-out triple triples but, by the same token a skater that has the jumps but, lacks choreography, flow, and musicality shouldn't be able to medal either. Artistic standards should be held to the same accountability as technical and I don't see that happening. It's more sad to me to see a technical skater that moves like a robot and pays no mind to the music then it is to see a truly beautiful skater that can't land some generic jump. JMHO.

 

[Ladskater]

Come on folks! Give Jeff a break! He was out of the scene for most of the season and did not have much exposure. I thought it was great that he finished his goal to make it to the Worlds and he did finish in the top ten so Canada can still send three male skaters to the Worlds next year. I don't think Jeff's time is over yet. He just needs to regroup and get a new program under his belt. I think if any skater should go from Team Canada it should be Emanuel. He can do the quad yet keeps popping his triple axle. He is also not very consistent.

Don't forget Jeff was first in the short program. So I am not counting him out. Go Jeff!!! I am looking forward to seeing Jeff in the Stars On Ice tour in a couple of weeks. He is still one of the most artistic skaters on the planet.

 

[Tigger]

Actually Ladskater, Jeff finished second in the SP and we can only send two to Sweden next year. At least that was my understanding.

Other than that...Thank you for saying what you did. I can't believe people have forgotten about the fact Jeff has been playing catch up ever since the doctors gave him the all clear to start training again in December. A lower spine fracture is nothing to sneeze about and I honestly thought Jeff would not be competiting at all this year.

Considering all Jeff's been through this season, his top ten finish is on par w/a medal in my books.

 

[Jaana]

I don't mind male skaters not being able to medal with-out the quad and I don't mind female skaters not being able to medal with-out triple triples but, by the same token a skater that has the jumps but, lacks choreography, flow, and musicality shouldn't be able to medal either. Artistic standards should be held to the same accountability as technical and I don't see that happening. It's more sad to me to see a technical skater that moves like a robot and pays no mind to the music then it is to see a truly beautiful skater that can't land some generic jump. JMHO.

I think that although Buttle is an artistic skater with a great CoP+artistic choreography, he needs to have the jumps to succeed in future Worlds. With the exception of Joubert I find that among Buttle´s competitors are many artistic top skaters (each of them very different artistically, but still artistic) who have the big jumps also: Takahashi, Lambiel, Verner, Lysacek, etc. Perhaps also Oda should be included to that group.

 

[Mafke]

Artistic standards should be held to the same accountability as technical and I don't see that happening. It's more sad to me to see a technical skater that moves like a robot and pays no mind to the music then it is to see a truly beautiful skater that can't land some generic jump. JMHO.

I agree. My theory is that the judges use quads and triple-triples the way they used to use figures. Both are ways to narrow the field of medalists down to a manageable number.
12 clean short programs with no quads or triple-triples are _hard_ to judge. 2 programs with quads and a bunch of non-quad or non-clean programs are much easier.

 

[iluvtodd]

Come on folks! Give Jeff a break! He was out of the scene for most of the season and did not have much exposure. I thought it was great that he finished his goal to make it to the Worlds and he did finish in the top ten so Canada can still send three male skaters to the Worlds next year. I don't think Jeff's time is over yet. He just needs to regroup and get a new program under his belt. I think if any skater should go from Team Canada it should be Emanuel. He can do the quad yet keeps popping his triple axle. He is also not very consistent.

Don't forget Jeff was first in the short program. So I am not counting him out. Go Jeff!!! I am looking forward to seeing Jeff in the Stars On Ice tour in a couple of weeks. He is still one of the most artistic skaters on the planet.

I'll take Jeff's skating any day! I'm thankful he was able to skate at Canadian Nationals and Worlds considering his injury early in the season. Looking forward to seeing Chris Mabee continue to blossom (we loved his free skate at 2005 Skate America, and were disappointed that ESPN didn't show him at all during worlds. ).

 

[chuckm]

I think it's harsh and counterproductive when the head of a skating federation makes derogatory remarks about skating skills that can only be interpreted as a swipe at specific skaters.

Poor Joannie! She's always had confidence problems, and remarks like this are not a confidence builder. When you consider that the next best is Mira Leung, it makes no sense to openly criticize your best female skater.

Jeff will most likely never have a quad or a reliable 3A, even in a good season when he is not injured. He has already done well for Canada, winning a World and an Olympic medal. Why beat him up publicly when he is your best male skater?

The only skaters who need a good kick in the butt are Sandhu and Leung. The first needs to do the work to get back the jumps he has always had, the second needs an attitude correction.

Everyone is aghast at Piseev's public humiliation of Russian skaters. Thompson couches his remarks in more polite terms, but they are just as devastating to the skaters.

 

[Spun Silver]

Well said!

 

[Mathman]

"And it became evident after the (ladies’) short: your best clean skate without a triple-triple is going to put you fifth.”

It will be interesting to see if this is really the future of the sport, or if we just happen to have a couple of prodigies (Asada and Kim) coming along at the same time, like Michelle and Tara a decade ago.

True, four ladies landed triple-triples in both the short program and the long program (although Meissner's 3F+3T in the LP was downgraded). This is unprecedented -- but is 4 out of hundreds of competitors and wannabes the wave of the future, or just an anomaly?

Some people think that in the future a lady will need a triple Axel to be competitive. Maybe so. But so far this projection is based on a sample of size 1 (Asada).

 

[antmanb]

It will be interesting to see if this is really the future of the sport, or if we just happen to have a couple of prodigies (Asada and Kim) coming along at the same time, like Michelle and Tara a decade ago.

True, four ladies landed triple-triples in both the short program and the long program (although Meissner's 3F+3T in the LP was downgraded). This is unprecedented -- but is 4 out of hundreds of competitors and wannabes the wave of the future, or just an anomaly?

Some people think that in the future a lady will need a triple Axel to be competitive. Maybe so. But so far this projection is based on a sample of size 1 (Asada).

I agree with you complete MM. When Ito and Harding were in their hey day the talk was about how Yamaguchi didn't have a triple axel and needed a 3/3 to survive. After those 3 left so did the triple axels and higher tier 3/3s. That was more than 10 years ago. Just because this worlds had ladies landing 3/3s and triple axels, doesn't necessarily mean they will next year or the year after. Look at the technical content in Torino...anomalies are just that and cannot form teh basis of "rules".

Ant

 

[temperboy28]

I agree with you complete MM. When Ito and Harding were in their hey day the talk was about how Yamaguchi didn't have a triple axel and needed a 3/3 to survive. After those 3 left so did the triple axels and higher tier 3/3s. That was more than 10 years ago. Just because this worlds had ladies landing 3/3s and triple axels, doesn't necessarily mean they will next year or the year after. Look at the technical content in Torino...anomalies are just that and cannot form teh basis of "rules".

Ant

Ito and Harding were obviously ahead of their time since it took until 14 years after Ito cleanly landed her first in competition, and 12 years after Harding landed her first cleanly in competition, for any other skaters to land them cleanly in competition. The 2 who did were not even contending skaters at the time. So obviously Ito and Harding were far ahead of their time. Given how much time has surpassed from them to anyone landing triple axels again it should now be the start of it becoming more of a neccesity for top women.

 

[gkelly]

I don't think there are even unwritten rules that skaters won't be considered for medals without cutting-edge jump content.

To win medals, a skater needs to be able to rack up a lot of points. To
compete against other skaters who have the jumps, a skater either has to match those jumps or come close enough in jump content (and quality, if they can earn enough points in GOE) *and* significantly outdo the rest of the field in other areas, e.g., spins or PCS.

Or just keep trying to skate their best and hope that the skaters who have more advanced skills will not, but in that case any win would be by default.

So each skater needs to maximize what she or he can do best. If your body *can* learn harder jumps or Biellmanns or whatever, by all means, add those skills and earn those points. But if it proves impossible to add a specific skill that is highly rewarded and therefore popular among your competitors, don't injure yourself trying to force it or forget to spend time on improving the areas where you're naturally already good even further to maximize your own potential greatness.

 

[blue dog]

Ito and Harding were obviously ahead of their time since it took until 14 years after Ito cleanly landed her first in competition, and 12 years after Harding landed her first cleanly in competition, for any other skaters to land them cleanly in competition. The 2 who did were not even contending skaters at the time. So obviously Ito and Harding were far ahead of their time. Given how much time has surpassed from them to anyone landing triple axels again it should now be the start of it becoming more of a neccesity for top women.

Women thought it would be a necessity back then, but what happened? Those technical wizards started to fall apart in performance. Midori Ito was and still is considered the best ever female jumper--while she was more consistent than Tonya, she eventually succumbed to the pressure. Before we start jumping on the bandwagon (whether we are armchair fans or skating bigwigs) for quads and triple/triples, we must realize that skating trends come and go--after 1992, when many thought that skating will get more technically demanding, Oksana Baiul won the Olympics with a DOUBLE/DOUBLE combination.

I've said this again and again--these girls have not faced their toughest competition--time. Time is the deciding factor on how skating will continue. While Mao, Kimmie, and Yukari push the world in jumps, the rest of the girls will follow and attempt the same things. Then, it'll be a matter of time before we are faced with a multitude of injuries, and burnouts.

There's also the matter of everything else within a program. While Miki's win was exciting, her posture still leaves a lot to be desired. There was almost a look of dread on her face as she entered her spiral sequence.

 

[flying camel]

Well I too feel the story was harsh. But there are two sides to every story. Since the next Olympics are going to be in Canada, they want to win medals. You just aren't going to win if you don't have some of these elements. I don't think a skater should sacrafice their body for a jump , but it seems that they want to see the skaters taking some risk.

When the Olympics come around and there are no medals in figureskating for Canada every one will be complaining. So, I guess he is nipping it in the bud now. I feel for the skaters, but this is the way it is.

Buttle is a beautiful skater, but I feel he could tone down the artistry a little. As much as I love watching him, its all about the points now. If some of that artistry is gettig no points what is the point. I think the artistry is more fatiguing then the jumps for him.

Poor Joannie I think she was just forgotton by the judges at Worlds. You know how some judges have their favorites and will find a way for them to not be too low eventhough they had mistakes, Not the case for Joannie. I think she needs to make some changes. She is one of my favorites, but I did not like her SP or LP this year. I liked her better last year.

We can see that skating has become serious business, and winning medals is important. JMO!

 

[temperboy28]

Women thought it would be a necessity back then, but what happened? Those technical wizards started to fall apart in performance. Midori Ito was and still is considered the best ever female jumper--while she was more consistent than Tonya, she eventually succumbed to the pressure. Before we start jumping on the bandwagon (whether we are armchair fans or skating bigwigs) for quads and triple/triples, we must realize that skating trends come and go--after 1992, when many thought that skating will get more technically demanding, Oksana Baiul won the Olympics with a DOUBLE/DOUBLE combination.

I've said this again and again--these girls have not faced their toughest competition--time. Time is the deciding factor on how skating will continue. While Mao, Kimmie, and Yukari push the world in jumps, the rest of the girls will follow and attempt the same things. Then, it'll be a matter of time before we are faced with a multitude of injuries, and burnouts.

There's also the matter of everything else within a program. While Miki's win was exciting, her posture still leaves a lot to be desired. There was almost a look of dread on her face as she entered her spiral sequence.

Those are all good points.

The triple axel looked like it had become a major trend in the early 90s when Ito and Harding started it. Yet even though could not substain doing the triple axel with any regularity, and began to suffer in their performances and competions in general after only 1 or 2 years doing them with success. Then like you said at the 94 Olympics Kerrigan's triple toe-triple toe was considered a "stunning" technical maneuver, and Biaul won the Olympics with that wobbly double axel-
double toe to finish you referred to.

The quad phenomenan for men is an another example. After 10 clean quads over both programs among the medal winners at the 2002 Olympics, only 3 clean quads over both programs among the medal winners at the 2006 Olympics(Lambiel's quad in the short was not clean).

It will be interest to see how the women fare in their battle vs time as they push the technical envelope like hasnt been seen in years, and their bodies are put through that rigor and stress from such an early age repeatedly.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

Those are all good points.

It will be interest to see how the women fare in their battle vs time as they push the technical envelope like hasnt been seen in years, and their bodies are put through that rigor and stress from such an early age repeatedly.

My biggest fear is that we will see more Taras: skaters who leave the sport highly decorated but who cannot make a living in the sport because theire bodies are worn out... or even worse, skaters who never live up to their potential because they work so hard on the jumps that they never develop other aspects of their skating.

 

[euterpe]

I don't buy the theory that it's OK to browbeat the Canadian skaters because Skate Canada wants medals in Vancouver. Piseev publicly dissed the Russian singles skaters, and now Russia for 2008 will have one place for ladies and men and two places for pairs and dance.

It's not as if there are younger skaters doing quads and 3As left and right, ready to displace the current Canadian men and ladies. Not even considering quads, it seems as if many of the up and coming men don't have a truly reliable 3A. The junior ladies are simply dismal.

You don't get medals in Vancouver by insulting the current group of skaters. These skaters got to perform in Tokyo because they were the best Canada has, based on Canadian Nationals. Does Thompson think the results would have been any better if the next rank of skaters went instead?

I am sure Jeff Buttle and Joannie Rochette were upset that they didn't place well at Worlds, without having Thompson publicly whip them. Joannie did very well in the FS and managed to hold onto the two places for Ladies for 2008.

Skaters are not puppets on strings. They work hard all year long and endure painful injuries for their sport. They do not deserve to receive a public tongue-lashing from the head of their federation. The Skate Canada mentality won't help to build a strong team for Vancouver.

 

[millie]

I agree with what he said. It is not much good if you are the best skater in your country if for the men-you can't do the quad or for the ladies if you can't do a triple-triple that is consistant. The Canadian skaters have a lot to their advantage here in Canada with regards to good coaches and facilities, I think that it's about time they took advantage of this and trained harder instead of whining all the time and making excuses why they can't do these jumps.