Jeffrey Buttle out of Skate Canada's favour?

[chuckm]

And is the fact that the best skaters in Canada can't win medals the fault of those individuals? Who else IS there?

And I would say at this point, less than 3 years from Vancouver IT IS TOO LATE! Canada can't manufacture skaters who can do quads, 3As and 3/3s as easily as breathing. So what is the point of bashing the skaters they do have?

It comes over like a parent tsk-tsking because Johnny and Janie came home with Bs on their report card instead of As and letting them know in uncertain terms that they are not good enough.

 

[millie]

And is the fact that the best skaters in Canada can't win medals the fault of those individuals? Who else IS there?

And I would say at this point, less than 3 years from Vancouver IT IS TOO LATE! Canada can't manufacture skaters who can do quads, 3As and 3/3s as easily as breathing. So what is the point of bashing the skaters they do have?

It comes over like a parent tsk-tsking because Johnny and Janie came home with Bs on their report card instead of As and letting them know in uncertain terms that they are not good enough.

I think that it is the fault of the individuals alone that they are not winning medals and not doing the quads and the triple-triples. Who else can you blame? These skaters have everything at their fingertips and they are not using it to their advantage. Skaters from other countries are coming to Canada to train and most of them are at their best. Why can't Canadian skaters do the same!

I am a Canadian and I am not bashing Canadian skaters. It makes me mad when they get on the ice and can't do these jumps and all they have to say is that I know that I can do better. If they can do better, why don't they do better.

In no uncertain terms they are not good enough to compete internationally.

 

[slutskayafan21]

And is the fact that the best skaters in Canada can't win medals the fault of those individuals? Who else IS there?

And I would say at this point, less than 3 years from Vancouver IT IS TOO LATE! Canada can't manufacture skaters who can do quads, 3As and 3/3s as easily as breathing. So what is the point of bashing the skaters they do have?

It comes over like a parent tsk-tsking because Johnny and Janie came home with Bs on their report card instead of As and letting them know in uncertain terms that they are not good enough.

As you probably know Buttle is my 2nd favorite skater but I have conservative hopes for him at this point, and cautious expectations. I fear he has hit his technical peak, or atleast his jumping peak. He is not even close to mastering a quad, and his triple axel is still a roll of the dice. He is now 24 years old and has made almost no progress in getting closer to having a quad he even has a shot of landing successfully, or a fairly secure triple axel. For a number of years to make no inroads to acquiring those things, I just dont see it happening at this point. Without them he will remain a lower half top 10 skater the rest of his amateur career probably.

Rochette needs to skate with alot more attack, project much more confidence and self-belief in herself out there. In addition to landing the jumps in competition, and mastering a couple of triple-triples. A big ask, her window is not totallly closed yet perhaps, but is closing fast. I do think her lack of attack, and the fact she doesnt give the impression of believing she is a top tier skater is reflected in her PCS which seemed to be decreasing as the season went.

I agree though that those 2 are our best singles skaters. The singles fields today are brutal. They are trying their best. They need the support of fans and the federation, not to kicked in the shins because they didnt produce what the optimists hoped for from them at this meet. They are all Canada can pin their hopes for the best possible showing on, there is nobody else who comes close to either in Canada right now.

 

[Mathman]

I think that it is the fault of the individuals alone that they are not winning medals and not doing the quads and the triple-triples. Who else can you blame?

Millie, I think what ChuckM is saying is that you can't blame Jeff Buttle for not being Evgeny Plushenko, any more than you can blame, say, Joey Russel for not being Stephane Lambiel, or me for not being the Queen of England.

They're just not, and no amount of "taking advantage of excellent training facilities" is going to change that.

Let Jeff Buttle be the best Jeff Buttle he can be. If someone else comes along who can do a quad, great -- but that's no reason to pick on Buttle.

JMO.

 

[Spun Silver]

What about Mira?

I adore Jeff's skating. He keeps managing to be in the top flight that gets shown on TV, so I'm happy. His footwork this year was incredible. Personally, I'll take him over Joubert. I was happy Joubert won Worlds because of his great season, but he's not the complete package for me.

I'm waiting for someone to say Jeff should retire and do show skating. Oops, I forgot RD doesn't care about the men. But I don't want to see Jeff loping around the stage in silly numbers doing a jump or two when he feels like it. I want to see him stretched to his limit. If his limit is a tiny bit below the top, that's perfectly fine with me. I'll take it.

 

[hockeyfan228]

I think these comments are as agregious as Piseev's comments, and about as gracious as Gretzsky's when he managed the Olympic team.

 

[jennylovskt]

I think the CEO of Skate Canada is simply saying the fact. Even no one says it, Buttle knows, and Rochette knows. It is the task which Canada is facing. It is actually not good to try to cover it up or avoid it. It gave its top skaters an extra push and pressure. Whether this push and pressure would work for Canada or not is another story. Every skater has his/her limit. I don't know where Buttle or Rochette's limit is. If they have reached their body's limit, then there is nothing anyone can do to push them to get better technically or artistically. Figure skating is a sport. Like any other sports, it is cruel. If you can't, then you don't. JMO

 

[iloveaxel]

I think these comments are as agregious as Piseev's comments, and about as gracious as Gretzsky's when he managed the Olympic team.

I don't think it's constructive for the CEO of Skate Canada to publicly rebuke its elite skaters. But on the other hand, I'm so tired of hearing how much Jeffrey Buttle and/or Joannie has improved their jumps this year. In reality, there's no sign their jumps have improved at all.

If you tuned in to CBC's coverage of Nationals and 4cc, they talked a lot about how much better Jeffrey Buttle's 3A is now this year. Jeffrey himself also bragged about how much bigger his 3A is, even compared to one year ago. But in reality, he still can't land 3A on a regular basis in competitions.

The elite Canadian skaters have a tendency to talk big before competitions, but the results at big events rarely pan out. Remember everybody was so pumped up in the Summer/Fall of 2006 when there were lots of rumors that Joannie was able to land her 3+3 consistently in practice.

I think it's better for these skaters to talk less. It will only raise the false hope of their fans. Better to under promise, and over deliver.

 

[bekalc]

Personally, I think perhaps Skate Canada needs to take some responsibilty themselves. Why are our skaters so inconsistent? And what have we been teaching them in regards to jumps?

This being said I think in Joannie's case, well, she can't blame her lack of success on just the rise of the triple/triple. Why? Because remember last year at worlds, the judges gave Joannie huge scores at the qualifying, and they were more than likely going to perhaps give her world gold if she skated well. But Joannie blew it herself. A clean skate in the short from Joannie, and it wouldn't have matter how many triple/triples Meissner landed.

As for the triple/triples going away, I don't think so. The new crop of ladies have very consistent 3/3's Yu-na Kim is something like 8/8. And here's another fact the last ladies champion 2/3 hit triple/triples in their programs and the last one was more than capable of doing so.

But what I don't understand is why people are so shocked by this change. Or why Joannie's so shocked. Didn't she see Mao last year? And hadn't she heard about Yu-na Kim?

 

[blue dog]

My biggest fear is that we will see more Taras: skaters who leave the sport highly decorated but who cannot make a living in the sport because theire bodies are worn out... or even worse, skaters who never live up to their potential because they work so hard on the jumps that they never develop other aspects of their skating.

I think what is helping cause this is the credit skaters get for falling on fully-rotated jumps. No credit should be given for a fall. NONE. Quads and triple axels getting partial credit--is like getting into Harvard with a D. Skaters should get no credit (and then the -1.00 mandatory deduction) to discourage skaters from trying these elements that they're not comfortable with.

The same with these slow, painful spins, where you could see all facial expression replaced by an expression of pain.

 

[Spun Silver]

:agree: :yes:

 

[bems]

I still believe Canadian Men and Women are great skaters but not great competitors. They constantly choke at events outside of Canada where they are not protected based on last years results. The pairs and dancers did deliver but we still have a ways to go before 2010.

We have the ability to use scores from summer competitions, sectionals and international competitions to build a skater profile. If you have trouble competiting (i.e. if your previous past four competitions do not place you at the top of the Canadian game, you do not get to go.)

Prior to World's the compteitors should be judged fit to go by doctors and perform their short programs. If it appears they are not fit, the alternates should get to compete We need to develop our alternates before they peak. Being good at 16 does not mean better at 19. Move them up and onward. Move them in and out!

If this is truly a sport, use performance as the key. Use yearly competitive averages and do not hold back our hopefuls let them rise!

Know the competition, do not fragment our our skaters by income and elite skating schoools, grow them with a true national program.

Thompson and Slipchuk have their work cut out. Let's hope they can keep us in the game!

 

[nadster]

The same with these slow, painful spins, where you could see all facial expression replaced by an expression of pain.

Not only slow but often not maintaining a correct body position either. So many forward edge spinning sit spins don't really sit. But many skaters do it for the extra levels.

Unfortunately the GOE of a spin goes up with the level no matter how badly the high level spin is being done.

 

[nadster]

We have the ability to use scores from summer competitions, sectionals and international competitions to build a skater profile. If you have trouble competiting (i.e. if your previous past four competitions do not place you at the top of the Canadian game, you do not get to go.)

Senior skaters do not have sectionals ( where they have to compete and fight for their spot) available to them for the most part. The top 12 from Canadians last year are exempt from sectionals and only those sections with more than 4 non-exempted competitors ( 8 in Quebec ) have a legitimate sectional qualifying competition. Unfortunately most sections do not have enough skaters to have a real competition.

There are additional exemptions for just about anyone who gets an international assignment. ( JGP , senior B , or GP)

The result. You get senior ladies at nationals that struggle to do even one clean triple jump. Some of the senior ladies at nationals get lower scores than our top pre-novices. They know they have a free ticket to nationals on absolutely nothing. This is what has to change. The skaters should have to truly work to make it to nationals.

 

[trains]

I thought that this would be changing next year. I heard the seniors have to do sectionals and Challenge next year. There is supposed to be no more free ride. In EOS the section is not even going to pay the accomodation costs for Challenge and Canadians any more. I don't know abou the other sections. They will give a discretionary bonus after the competition in lieu of the accomodation payment. So no more recreational seniors that drain the association's resources.

 

[layman]

Fair Weather Fans

I really don't know what Canadians are complaining about. After all, you have great skaters...fantastic skaters with the kind of talent that comes along once or twice in a generation, if that often. One bad competition in an off year does not justify all the moaning and groaning and hand-wringing.

I am so, so tired of Canadians dumping on Emanuel Sandhu. Do you know how many countries would kill to have a skater of his talent represent them? If you don't want him, send him to the States...please.

No skater is perfect...not Brian Joubert, the current World Champion, who has had many ups and many downs in his career, not Alexei Yagudin, Olympic Champion, who consulted with a sports psychologists to overcome his problems, not Emanuel Sandhu, not anyone. Why kick a skater (or skaters in the case of the entire Canadian team) just because they are down. Everything and everyone who is down is going to be back up. Just give them time.

I just don't get the constant Canadian bashing of Emanuel Sandhu. After all, he was the highest placing Canadian man at the 2006 World Championships and was responsible for Canada having three entries in the 2007 World Championships. During the 2006 GP season, Sandhu skated two perfect free-skates (complete with quads and 3-axels) that won him two Grand Prix titles. Yes, he peaked during that GP season and was not as spectacular for the Olympics and World Championships, but no one can be perfect every single time. This guy deserves some credit.

I'm in complete agreement with Dick Button when it comes to Emanuel Sandhu. Even when he makes mistakes I like watching him. His skating transcends the technical elements. Sandhu has more talent in his pinky finger than most skaters will ever have in their entire careers. On his worst night/day, he's vastly more interesting and impressive (in my opinion) than some skater's perfect skates (Plushenko's technically perfect but boring and uninspired Olympic winning performance comes to mind).

For all the Canadian arm-chair quarterbacks and couch potatoes, who are constantly bashing Emanuel Sandhu , I say put up or shut up. If you feel you can do a better job than Sandhu and represent Canada better than he has, then lace up your skates, get out on the ice, face the pressure and do so.

Like I said, if Canada does not want Emanuel Sandhu (or Jeff Buttle or Joannie Rochette...), there are plenty of countries who would line up to take them. Canadians need to recognize and support the treasures in their midst.
You have the best, most talented skaters in the World, so stop whining and griping and support them and recognize that any skating career has as many downs as it has ups.

 

[SailorGalaxia518]

I really don't know what Canadians are complaining about. After all, you have great skaters...fantastic skaters with the kind of talent that comes along once or twice in a generation, if that often. One bad competition in an off year does not justify all the moaning and groaning and hand-wringing.

I am so, so tired of Canadians dumping on Emanuel Sandhu. Do you know how many countries would kill to have a skater of his talent represent them? If you don't want him, send him to the States...please.

No skater is perfect...not Brian Joubert, the current World Champion, who has had many ups and many downs in his career, not Alexei Yagudin, Olympic Champion, who consulted with a sports psychologists to overcome his problems, not Emanuel Sandhu, not anyone. Why kick a skater (or skaters in the case of the entire Canadian team) just because they are down. Everything and everyone who is down is going to be back up. Just give them time.

I just don't get the constant Canadian bashing of Emanuel Sandhu. After all, he was the highest placing Canadian man at the 2006 World Championships and was responsible for Canada having three entries in the 2007 World Championships. During the 2006 GP season, Sandhu skated two perfect free-skates (complete with quads and 3-axels) that won him two Grand Prix titles. Yes, he peaked during that GP season and was not as spectacular for the Olympics and World Championships, but no one can be perfect every single time. This guy deserves some credit.

I'm in complete agreement with Dick Button when it comes to Emanuel Sandhu. Even when he makes mistakes I like watching him. His skating transcends the technical elements. Sandhu has more talent in his pinky finger than most skaters will ever have in their entire careers. On his worst night/day, he's vastly more interesting and impressive (in my opinion) than some skater's perfect skates (Plushenko's technically perfect but boring and uninspired Olympic winning performance comes to mind).

For all the Canadian arm-chair quaterbacks and couch potatoes, who are constantly bashing Emanuel Sandhu , I say put up or shut up. If you feel you can do a better job than Sandhu and represent Canada better than he has, then lace up your skates, get out on the ice, face the pressure and do so.

Like I said, if Canada does not want Emanuel Sandhu (or Jeff Buttle or Joannie Rochette...), there are plenty of countries who would line up to take them. Canadians need to recognize and support the treasures in their midst.
You have the best, most talented skaters in the World, so stop whining and griping and support them and recognize that any skating career has as many downs as it has ups.

I am in total agreement with you, Layman

 

[Zuranthium]

The quad phenomenan for men is an another example. After 10 clean quads over both programs among the medal winners at the 2002 Olympics, only 3 clean quads over both programs among the medal winners at the 2006 Olympics(Lambiel's quad in the short was not clean).

Eh? Lambiel's Quad was definitely clean in the Short. It was the 3Toe that came after it which had a slight wobble on the landing.

~Z

 

[millie]

We know that we have some of the best, most talented skaters in the world. We know that they can do the jumps just as well as their competitors. Emanuel does the quad in practice: Joannie and Mira does their triple-triple's: I think that Jeff's nerves and injuries are holding him back. When you see such talented skaters in practice and what they can do and see the same skaters on international ice, they are like chauk and cheese. We are not the ones whining and complaining, the skaters are. After every competition, when they are talking to the media, they themselves say that "I know I can do better" or "I do these jumps in practice" Or "I have to go back home and work harder".

I am a hug fan of Emanuel, Jeff, Mira and Joannie and I know they can be the best. Sometimes a little "tough love" is all they need to give them the extra push and sometimes a push is useless if they are skating their best and can't do better. For example: if a child in school is bring home B's or C's, if that is the best the child can do, than you praise them and say that's excellent. But, if a child is bringing home B's and C's and you know that they can get A's and A+'s, than that's a different story. You say you can do better. This same example applies to the skaters.

 

[antmanb]

Ito and Harding were obviously ahead of their time since it took until 14 years after Ito cleanly landed her first in competition, and 12 years after Harding landed her first cleanly in competition, for any other skaters to land them cleanly in competition. The 2 who did were not even contending skaters at the time. So obviously Ito and Harding were far ahead of their time. Given how much time has surpassed from them to anyone landing triple axels again it should now be the start of it becoming more of a neccesity for top women.

You mean like it became a necessity for female skaters to land triple axels in 1993 or 1994.

The point many people have made is - maybe this is it - we've hit the peak and are reaching the limits of what the human body can do with the current equipment and ice surface.

Maybe Mao is an exception to the rule like Ito and Harding before her, or Nelidina and Nakano. Mao is the only one to have some consistency with the jump and its hardly like that is 80% or more.

It may be she and the other's are the anomalies.

Ant