2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[monochrom3]

I think if other skaters COULD have done it (backloading), they would have...

Actually now that I think of it, I recall Evgenia’s original LP from the Olympic Season (The Leftovers program) being backloaded 6/1. I think that’s as close as we ever saw to the 0/7. But then I remember she also made some uncharacteristic mistakes at Ondrej Nepala that year — and then we never saw that program again. Anna Karenina was 2/5 in its set up, so I’m wondering if the reason why they didn’t use a 1/6 format for Anna Karenina was because she couldn’t quite manage the 1/6 format. She also got injured I believe at some point that season so maybe it could be injury related that she didn’t do it, but I also wonder now in retrospect if training the original program gave her some grief in the first place and may have caused the injury? All purely speculation, but maybe any fans can enlighten me more on this

 

[el henry]

It really doesn’t matter what Daniil has to say. People will rip things out of context and see what they want to see.
If someone wants to hate someone, they’ll find a way to do that.
What did you guys expect him to say in an interview? “My students have no talent” and “my goal is to make mediocre programs”?
Jeez

When Erokhov gave his interview where he said that all girls eat well and all those memes and jokes about them starving truly bother and infuriate him, no one would pay attention to that interview. Because it doesn’t fit the narrative of the character they have portrayed in their heads and isn’t nearly as juicy or scandalous.
Oh, also, him saying that coaches always prevent them from overtraining, always restrict the number of the jumps they are allowed to jump per training isn’t nearly as fun to pay attention to it

But if there was any chance to trash that team with his interview, people would be discussing it for weeks.

I’m kinda glad that Elizabeth has moved to Eteri after turning 18, and people accepted that she’s naturally petite. Had Elizabeth stayed with her the whole time, oh Eteri would’ve been ripped apart

I am someone who criticized Daniil for one comment in his interview, but I am not sure if these comments are directed to me, since I was not quoted or engaged directly. Therefore, if they are not, this post will be irrelevant, but if they are:

1. Could it please be explained to me how I took the quote out of context *from the actual interview*. Not what Daniil must have meant, or here’s how to interpret it, but how are the words out of context from the actual interview.

I would have had no problem if Daniil actually said “I want to create a program that will be unforgettable, and Alina will be the one to do it”. That’s not what he said

2. I am not trying to find a way to hate Daniil, nor did I see anyone else doing it. Criticizing one statement from an interview cannot be called finding a way to hate someone.

3. I have no narrative in my head one way or another. I barely think about Daniil.

I would recommend the Team Eteri FanFest for posters who want to celebrate any members of the team without fear of contradiction. I visit FanFests for my favs often, whether to post or in the case of my fav Russian lady, more often lurk, but I like them.

Here in the Edge there will be criticism and it can’t be dismissed as “hate”; sometimes it’s a difference of opinion. With so many accomplished Russian ladies, there is almost certain to be such a difference

 

[Bluediamonds09]

Any word from Daria Panenkova? Or Stanislava Konstantinova? I would like to discuss all the Russian ladies, they are all so interesting.

Daria, the former Eteri girl, the one who was never at the very top of the pyramid, was never the favorite, was never rail-thin, tries to make it on her second wave.

Stanislava, a federation favorite, the one who would be handed the world if she could skate 2 clean programs, the one who was always “just a bit older” , tries to make it after a disastrous sp at Europeans.

Such drama! Such....everything! No need to keep the conversation between 2 particular skaters when everyone has a story.

 

[moriel]

Actually now that I think of it, I recall Evgenia’s original LP from the Olympic Season (The Leftovers program) being backloaded 6/1. I think that’s as close as we ever saw to the 0/7. But then I remember she also made some uncharacteristic mistakes at Ondrej Nepala that year — and then we never saw that program again. Anna Karenina was 2/5 in its set up, so I’m wondering if the reason why they didn’t use a 1/6 format for Anna Karenina was because she couldn’t quite manage the 1/6 format. She also got injured I believe at some point that season so maybe it could be injury related that she didn’t do it, but I also wonder now in retrospect if training the original program gave her some grief in the first place and may have caused the injury? All purely speculation, but maybe any fans can enlighten me more on this

In some interviews from the fed, if i am not mistaken, rusfed folks mentioned that Med kept making mistakes, and that led the team to change the program.
They also mentioned that Zhenya was overtraining it, because she kept trying to skate it clean.

Looking at the change, if Zhenya could do the 6/1 they would have kept it, because i mean, why make it easier. They could totally have made AK 6/1 too, but they still reverted to her old layout. There must have been a reason for that, and i am pretty sure that it wasnt "holding Zhenya back on purpose on the Olympic season".

I actually also feel that the 6/1 program kind of lead to her stress fracture - harder content, more mistakes. We know how competitive and perfectionist Zhenya is, so it is not implausible that she would keep insisting on skating it as many times as possible to skate it clean finally.

 

[moriel]

Recycling a warhorse is not that bad and I could accept the ambition to make the best of it. However, this attitude left me bitter when they gave Kostornaya R&G, just 2 seasons after Gubanova's magnificent interpretation and choreography on the same music. Even their dresses were similar. Yes, R&G is very common in figure skating, but they definitely tried to top Gubanova's program from that time, and in my opinion, they failed. It's too bad when the ambition to overshine someone else gets over the ambition to bring out the best from your own student.

To be honest, I am really not sure why they would even do that.
Gubanova is not Mao or Yuna. Gubanova is just another russian junior from the B team (like it or not, its a fact). Of course one of the best russian teams had nothing better to offer one of their best students than try to copy some other (weaker) junior's program.
Of course they tried to copy Gubanova's costume, and not got inspired by any of those:
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02691/swarovski-embed_2691263a.jpg
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...aX4U3_6J_T_33qJeM5duXrIfS2WBj2td0CgCg5H98HK76
or any renaissance fair dress to be fair?

 

[vesperalvioletta]

Any word from Daria Panenkova? Or Stanislava Konstantinova? I would like to discuss all the Russian ladies, they are all so interesting.

Daria, the former Eteri girl, the one who was never at the very top of the pyramid, was never the favorite, was never rail-thin, tries to make it on her second wave.

Stanislava, a federation favorite, the one who would be handed the world if she could skate 2 clean programs, the one who was always “just a bit older” , tries to make it after a disastrous sp at Europeans.

Such drama! Such....everything! No need to keep the conversation between 2 particular skaters when everyone has a story.

Konstantinova is doing one of her programs to Moulin Rouge, though I don't remember which. As for Panenkova, I think it's safe to say that she may sit this season out. I don't want to say she's going to retire, but after her injury I wouldn't be surprised if she did.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I know this is an old issue that doesn't matter anymore because of the rule change, but does anyone else disagree that backloading itself should've been considered in PCS? In my opinion, this whole "balanced program" issue is nothing more than semantics. If you go watch the ballet, I guarantee they aren't going to have all of the leaps and jumps perfectly balanced throughout the program for balance's sake (thanos much?). So why does it have to be that way in figure skating? In both of Alina's programs, the jumps were where the music dictated them to be. No jumps in the beginning matched the slower, more relaxed section (and I personally thought her choreo and step sequences were wonderful and entertaining), while the rapid jumping perfectly fit the music at the end. I would go so far as to say some other, "more balanced" programs with jumping at the beginning were putting jumps in unnatural spots in the music just so they could have jumps at the beginning. If the judges didn't like the choreography itself, thats a different story, but backloading itself should not affect PCS imo. I also thought it was a bit hypocritcal when people would say that Alina was "all about the jumps" but then would complain when the first part of the program only had (wonderful) spins, choreo, and steps. That being said, I do agree with the rule change, as not all pieces of music are suited towards backloading.

Changes in the rules have nothing to do with 'balanced program' in terms of what other people mostly complained about in this forum. The rules are changed to reward better 'balance of difficulty'. ISU just thought that rewarding all the jumps in the second half as more difficult ones is not apropriate and how jumping in the second half is not that hard (or not deserving to be rewarded that much) if you dont have at least some jumps before that second half. 'Balanced program' has nothing to do with placements of the required elements in time, it was just a myth made by skating fans used to attack Alinas winning skating at that time.

 

[Scott512]

Recycling a warhorse is not that bad and I could accept the ambition to make the best of it. However, this attitude left me bitter when they gave Kostornaya R&G, just 2 seasons after Gubanova's magnificent interpretation and choreography on the same music. Even their dresses were similar. Yes, R&G is very common in figure skating, but they definitely tried to top Gubanova's program from that time, and in my opinion, they failed. It's too bad when the ambition to overshine someone else gets over the ambition to bring out the best from your own student.

I love Nastyas Romeo and Juliet. It was wonderful. I hope she gets more good music to work with this year she needs it. I liked Alenas Romeo and Juliet as well. I like them both about the same and think they're great girls.. They are such beautiful skaters and girls. I can't say who did it better. I may go to Youtube and watch both girls Romeo and Juliet free skates to make a final determination. And I will make a final determination and try not to be influenced by Alena at this point being the more accomplished and better skater. Because she's better at this point doesn't mean Alena skated Romeo and Juliet better. Having better coaching helps too and Alena has it. I wanted to see Nastya with Eteri last season when she was searching for a new coach. But it didnt happen.

I know Alena will do a triple axel within a year and I hope Anastasia can add one at some point. She will need.it to climb the Russan ranks.

I have no problem with Danil talking confidently. He has that right. Maybe he knows Alina won't talk big about her programs but DG will and thats okay.

I like many others dont want another war horse for Alina next sesson. She needs a war horse break.

 

[lopsilceci]

ISU just thought that rewarding all the jumps in the second half as more difficult ones is not apropriate and how jumping in the second half is not that hard (or not deserving to be rewarded that much) if you dont have at least some jumps before that second half. 'Balanced program' has nothing to do with placements of the required elements in time, it was just a myth made by skating fans used to attack Alinas winning skating at that time.

Doing all jumps in the second half IS hard... other elements also require stamina and power but jumps are the most taxing on the legs and if you do all jumps on the second half, you've already used up some of your energy and you almost have no time in between jumps to recover.

One reason I admire Alina as an athlete is because she has so much stamina, endurance and power in her skating that she has been able to succesfully do a fully backloaded program with difficult transitions, jump entries/exits and some of the hardest jump combinations, and even now that backloading is not allowed, she still had programs with some of the most difficult technical content that we've seen so far.

Even when she struggles, she doesn't just settle for programs that could be easier for her. That deserves some respect.

 

[andromache]

As for Zhenya’s Olympic season layout - I think she could have done it had she not been injured. But she lost a lot of training time due to injury. And she was still injured during the Olympics. It’s not like she was 100% healthy. Which meant that it made more sense to do what she could do without further overtraining or the mental stress of a new layout.

 

[Scott512]

Recycling a warhorse is not that bad and I could accept the ambition to make the best of it. However, this attitude left me bitter when they gave Kostornaya R&G, just 2 seasons after Gubanova's magnificent interpretation and choreography on the same music. Even their dresses were similar. Yes, R&G is very common in figure skating, but they definitely tried to top Gubanova's program from that time, and in my opinion, they failed. It's too bad when the ambition to overshine someone else gets over the ambition to bring out the best from your own student.

To be fair Romeo and Juliet is a warhorse that will stand the test of time and has. I hope another Russian girl skates to it this year. I have enjoyed many Romeo and Juliet programs through the years and will continue to do so no doubt.

I went and watched Gubanovas R & G from JPG final in 2016 and Kostornia's R & G from JPG final in 2018. Ted Barton commented on both and raved about Nastyas program and grace and jumps and how great it was. He did pretty much the same with Alena's program although he didn't talk as much during her LP. To me both R & G's were wonderful and great choices for the skaters. I can't choose between them. I will go the Ted Barton route and say both R & G's were great.

 

[Mathman]

Changes in the rules have nothing to do with 'balanced program' in terms of what other people mostly complained about in this forum. The rules are changed to reward better 'balance of difficulty'. ISU just thought that rewarding all the jumps in the second half as more difficult ones is not apropriate and how jumping in the second half is not that hard (or not deserving to be rewarded that much) if you dont have at least some jumps before that second half. 'Balanced program' has nothing to do with placements of the required elements in time,] it was just a myth made by skating fans used to attack Alina's winning skating at that time.

I think you will have a hard time in finding any support from ISU communications to support that claim.

The second half bonus was instituted basically from the beginning of the IJS. (At 2005 Worlds, irina Slutskaya got the bonus for three jumps. Alina was two years old.)

Miki Ando backloaded 5 jumps in 2009.

The official ISU name for the second half bonus has always been "Credit for highlight distribution." A program was considered superior if the highlight elements (hard jumps) were distributed throughout the program, instead of bunched all together at the beginning.

You are quite right in saying that this has nothing to do with the ISU's use of the term "balanced program." The balanced program rules refer to the requirements that skaters must do so many jumps, so many spins, a footwork sequence, etc. This is unrelated to the question of back-loading, front-loading, or, for that matter, placement of jumps on the ice surface. (Utilizing the full ice surface is a plus, but it is not what is referred to in the ISU term "balanced program.")

The gripe against doing all 7 jumps in the second half was that some fans thought that this violated the intent and purpose of the rule -- to encourage programs with highlight elements distributed esthetically throughout. Frankly, I don't think the ISU ever considered, back in 2005, the possibility that skaters would ever try to back-load everything, bonus on no.

That said, Alina's Don Quixote was masterful, never mind the ISU rules. She could do it again in the 2019-20 season if she wanted to -- that is, if back-loading all the jumps served a choreographic or artistic purpose. (She just would not get quite as many bonus points for doing so s she did in 2017-18).

 

[Scott512]

To be honest, I am really not sure why they would even do that.
Gubanova is not Mao or Yuna. Gubanova is just another russian junior from the B team (like it or not, its a fact). Of course one of the best russian teams had nothing better to offer one of their best students than try to copy some other (weaker) junior's program.
Of course they tried to copy Gubanova's costume, and not got inspired by any of those:
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02691/swarovski-embed_2691263a.jpg
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...aX4U3_6J_T_33qJeM5duXrIfS2WBj2td0CgCg5H98HK76
or any renaissance fair dress to be fair?

A bit harsh. Yes Alena at her best is on a different level than Nastya but the R & G program worked for both and I think both mastered it. Maybe Gubanova should use it again in a season or 2 as a senior if they can't fin the right LP for her. The same for Alena. Can you imagine her using R & G as a senior in the olympic season with a triple axel and or a quad? She would light up the podiums! :thumbsup:

I think Romeo and Juliet was a great choice for Alena because they knew she would do it beautifully and they were right. It works great for balletic type figure skaters and will continue to do so. Because Eteri saw Nastya skate R & G at JGP final in 2016 where Nastya took silver to Alina's gold doesn't mean it played a role in her choosing it for Alena. R & G was a natural for The Natural Alena Kostornia. Hey that nickname is perfect for her. The Natural. :cool14:

 

[Scott512]

Konstantinova is doing one of her programs to Moulin Rouge, though I don't remember which. As for Panenkova, I think it's safe to say that she may sit this season out. I don't want to say she's going to retire, but after her injury I wouldn't be surprised if she did.

How bad is the injury? Dasha can still skate juniors if she gets fit. Who has her now? CSKA?

 

[madison]

I can't fault Daniil for speaking from his heart no matter how it may look in print or be perceived when taken out of context of the interview as a whole. He tried to give Alina the best of what he is capable of. He hoped his best would be beyond memorable. Whether he succeeded or not is for other people to say.

Alina chose Carmen. Daniil had the difficult task of making a very overused piece of music look unique and fresh. Whatever anyone's opinion of his vision of Carmen, the routine did its job this season when it counted the most. As did POTO.

He had to follow Black Swan and DQ. He created two programs that were memorable, talked about, critiqued, praised, broke scoring records, and ultimately made her World Champion. 'To be the best you have to beat the best' is a cliche for a reason. Before you can beat the best you have to bring the absolute best version of yourself to the game. Daniil managed to give her that. If you have to top yourself every season, the only way to do that is set your goals impossibly high.

He put into words what that looks like to him in his mind. He had to create a program like no other. Again, everyone gets to decide for themselves whether or not the program worked for them personally. It certainly worked for Alina.

People are really naive if they think that Alina chose anything. No, she didnt choose Carmen.
Carmen was Daniil's idea for her (either he was inspired by posters on Instagram is a matter of discuss).
Eteri confimed that. In an interview, she said that it was Daniil's dream that Alina skated on Carmen. And she said to Alina if she doesnt like what she sees she wont let her to skate on Carmen.
Like it or not, Daniil knows what publicity and ''working'' for fans mean. Like for example, stating that Alina tried 4lo and 4lz.

And now I see Daniil's quote:
"About Alina and her two programs, here we went from the fact that she is able to skate to these hits better than anyone else, who already has skated to 'Phantom of the Opera' and 'Carmen'. That (choice) was my wish, because I have never choreographed to these pieces before.''
So, it is clear that those choices werent Alina's. Probably they let people think that Alina chose Carmen because at that moment Orser commented that in Eteri's camp skaters dont have a word to say in choosintg the programs

 

[madison]

I think one problem is that Wilson and Dickson (and other choreographers) are indipendent contractors, so they are free to pick work wherever it is...I don't know who exactly pays Daniil (I guess Sambo school? or state funds?) but I can totally see why he would prefer to just stick to the skaters from his country.

Probably he doesnt receive any request from foreign big names either.

 

[seimei]

Polina has anounced retirement..

https://mobile.twitter.com/InTheLoPodcast/status/1134325773362270209
So sad. Such a promising skater.

 

[Autumn Leaves]

People are really naive if they think that Alina chose anything. No, she didnt choose Carmen.
Carmen was Daniil's idea for her (either he was inspired by posters on Instagram is a matter of discuss).
Eteri confimed that. In an interview, she said that it was Daniil's dream that Alina skated on Carmen. And she said to Alina if she doesnt like what she sees she wont let her to skate on Carmen.
Like it or not, Daniil knows what publicity and ''working'' for fans mean. Like for example, stating that Alina tried 4lo and 4lz.

I don't see the contradiction. They have also said that Alina had wanted this program, or a more mature program, since last season. Eteri agreed, but said she would change it if it didn't work. It is perfectly possible that Alina wanted a more mature program and Daniil suggested Carmen since he wanted to make it. Being in sync is always necessary to achieve a good result. The important part is that Alina was happy about Carmen; she had said that herself.

Honestly, I don't know any other team that is so scrutinised about which idea came from where. It is quite absurd, especially when talking about warhorses like Carmen or extremely popular teenage songs like Bad Guy. There is always the notion that they are forcing programs on the skaters, which I don't believe, because they are smart enough to know that a skater will interpret better and succeed more with programs she relates to.

In contrast, Rika announced SP with very unusual, original, grown up music and I would be very surprised if Rika knew and chose this piece. But I don't see any discussion about where the idea came from and if Mia Hamada is forcing jazz on her young students. The example is just to illustrate the insane amount of scrutiny on Eteri's team; I am not being critical at all towards Rika or Mie Hamada. I love their choice for the SP.

Of course, kids don't make all the decisions, not in any team. Let's not forget that the girls are (were) really young, with less knowledge about music and art. Their coaches undoubtedly influence their taste because they spend so much time together. When they are children, they gladly accept the decisions of coaches because they respect them. As they grow up, especially during the teenage rebellious phase, disagreement may appear, which have to be resolved. But it doesn't mean that every program is the result of a disagreement or "forcing" it on someone.

Again, Yulia is a case in point; she was a very opinionated and mature teenager. She insisted on music (Schindler's List), refused Averbuh's programs, went to Marina Zueva for choreography, declined DG's idea about Swan Lake and Eteri went along with it. So it depends a lot on the personality of the skater. I am sure that some kids would be terrified of making a choice and would rather their coaches do it, while others would have their own ideas and strong preferences.

 

[madison]

I don't see the contradiction. They have also said that Alina had wanted this program, or a more mature program, since last season. Eteri agreed, but said she would change it if it didn't work. It is perfectly possible that Alina wanted a more mature program and Daniil suggested Carmen since he wanted to make it. Being in sync is always necessary to achieve a good result. The important part is that Alina was happy about Carmen; she had said that herself.

Honestly, I don't know any other team that is so scrutinised about which idea came from where. It is quite absurd, especially when talking about warhorses like Carmen or extremely popular teenage songs like Bad Guy. There is always the notion that they are forcing programs on the skaters, which I don't believe, because they are smart enough to know that a skater will interpret better and succeed more with programs she relates to.

In contrast, Rika announced SP with very unusual, original, grown up music and I would be very surprised if Rika knew and chose this piece. But I don't see any discussion about where the idea came from and if Mia Hamada is forcing jazz on her young students. The example is just to illustrate the insane amount of scrutiny on Eteri's team; I am not being critical at all towards Rika or Mie Hamada. I love their choice for the SP.

Of course, kids don't make all the decisions, not in any team. Let's not forget that the girls are (were) really young, with less knowledge about music and art. Their coaches undoubtedly influence their taste because they spend so much time together. When they are children, they gladly accept the decisions of coaches because they respect them. As they grow up, especially during the teenage rebellious phase, disagreement may appear, which have to be resolved. But it doesn't mean that every program is the result of a disagreement or "forcing" it on someone.

Again, Yulia is a case in point; she was a very opinionated and mature teenager. She insisted on music (Schindler's List), refused Averbuh's programs, went to Marina Zueva for choreography, declined DG's idea about Swan Lake and Eteri went along with it. So it depends a lot on the personality of the skater. I am sure that some kids would be terrified of making a choice and would rather their coaches do it, while others would have their own ideas and strong preferences.

It is clear that Carmen was Daniil s choice for Alina. Alina of course was ''happy' to skate on it. She is doing and saying what her team tells her to do/say.
I dont say that it is wrong, but things were presented different, disorted by this camp. That it is all.
I personally havent seen/read that Rika or her team said that she chose her music. So i dont understand why she is brought to the discussion.

 

[vnana]

It is clear that Carmen was Daniil s choice for Alina. Alina of course was ''happy' to skate on it. She is doing and saying what her team tells her to do/say.
I dont say that it is wrong, but things were presented different, disorted by this camp. That it is all.
I personally havent seen/read that Rika or her team said that she chose her music. So i dont understand why she is brought to the discussion.

Actually, at the beginning of the season, Alina had already said she always wanted to skate Carmen long before this season. You can view her interview during Nebelhorn Trophy. No need to demonize her team. I don’t like Denil’s choreography either. He definitely need improve his skills. But I have to say, Alina is an independent person, not a doll.