Alina Zagitova, the Greatest?

[Tere19]

At 17, she already has the Grand Slam: Olympics, Worlds, Europeans and GPF. I have respect for past greats but the competition is much tougher these days and the skaters are pushing the boundaries with quads, so it's amazing that she's achieved all that with this level of competition. She still has many years left in her career including a possible second Olympic gold but even with what she has I'm ready to call it for now. What do you guys think?

If she wins again in 2022 yesss no question

 

[Mathman]

One thing about Kristi Yamaguchi's amateur career. In 1988 she won the junior world championship twice, once in singles and once in pairs (with the incomparable Rudy Galindo).

As for the events of the Grand Prix, we should all be rooting for Alina to take NHK this year. That will give the tag-team of Kristi and Alina a sweep. Kristi won Skate America, Skate Canada, and Nations Cup (before there was a Grand Prix per se). Alina has Russia, France and China, as well as the GP Final.

We might have one duplicate here, though. Nation's Cup turned into Cup of China in 2003.

 

[Mawwerg]

One thing about Kristi Yamaguchi's amateur career. In 1988 she won the junior world championship twice, once in singles and once in pairs (with the incomparable Rudy Galindo).

As for the events of the Grand Prix, we should all be rooting for Alina to take NHK this year. That will give the tag-team of Kristi and Alina a sweep. Kristi won Skate America, Skate Canada, and Nations Cup (before there was a Grand Prix per se). Alina has Russia, France and China, as well as the GP Final.

We might have one duplicate here, though. Nation's Cup turned into Cup of China in 2003.

Also Alina won such a unique thing as Grand Prix Helsinki.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

How was Kristi better than Alina as an amateur when Alina won everything as an amateur? At best Kristi could only be Alinas equal as an amateur if she won everything.

You're saying that winning Euros and the GPF (neither of which Kristi could have competed at) is as legacy building as winning a second world title, and I don't agree with that. It would be like saying Gracie's career is on par with Alina's because the former won more US Nationals.

 

[flanker]

As a commentator Scott Hamilton always took on the role role of cheerleader rather than critic. "Look at that! -- a TRIPLE TOE LOOP!!!!!"

It just wasn't in him to say anything negative about anybody.

So Ted Barton is not alone

 

[theharleyquinn]

As a commentator Scott Hamilton always took on the role role of cheerleader rather than critic. "Look at that! -- a TRIPLE TOE LOOP!!!!!"

It just wasn't in him to say anything negative about anybody.

Yes, but this isn't just a point about Scott, although I think we're moving out of the bounds of this thread's topic. The larger point is most commentators (and I do have to be narrow and say the English-speaking ones) aren't talking about elements of the component scores. There's very little incentive to be critical about a top skater's shortcomings on non-technical elements and some of the finer points of technical elements (GOE), especially since commentary is meant to help more casual viewers.

Scott has shady moments - it was clear who he was rooting for in pairs in 2002 for example. I just don't think he was as moved by a lot of skating in the IJS era.

 

[moriel]

No hate intended, but she’s probably not the Greatest ever. She needs that epic signature performance and that superior quality that is unquestionable. She’s not quite there yet but she will be in a couple of years.

Epic signature performance = red ballerina FS at the olympics.
Epic. Signature. Performance.

 

[Mathman]

Also Alina won such a unique thing as Grand Prix Helsinki.

 

[labgoat]

Politics? Lol. None of her major gold medals as a junior or senior are in question. All deserved and I am harsh critic of everyone. Even Zhenya said Alina deserved Olympic gold.

When you have won every major medal as a junior and senior by the age of 16 you are a GOAT! Her resume is GOAT. Alina is a junior GOAT and a senior GOAT! What other girl / lady can say that?

Now on to the rest of her career and everything is icing on the cake. Chocolate cake of course.

Yuna Kim I believe. When Alina medals at a second OG and is as widely regarded as a artist as Yuna, then I feel she may be the goat. She is an impressive young lady with great jumps and spins but needs some polish. As to the back loading, you should not consider this a fair contest. Up to last year, balanced programs were rewarded and bacloading was discouraged. In fact, the rules for this year encourage less backloading and more balance so Alina will be unlikely to match her previous efforts under this years rules.

 

[labgoat]

Tara was referring to Alina's technical ability (although I don't consider Tara the last word on technique), not her carriage on the ice. Alina is bent over most of the time when she skates, and that detracts visually from her performances.

Tara had better posture than Alina...but not as good as Sasha Cohen. It is weird having to add Cohen because of Trusova. You used to say Sasha and everyone knew you meant Cohen, now it needs clarification.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

In fact, the rules for this year encourage less backloading and more balance so Alina will be unlikely to match her previous efforts under this years rules.

Her reputation is also better than it was in 2017-2018, so while she may not be able to get as many points in bonus, her PCS (and probably GOE) will be better than before.

 

[labgoat]

Her reputation is also better than it was in 2017-2018, so while she may not be able to get as many points in bonus, her PCS (and probably GOE) will be better than before.

I was referring to technical points for backloading, but I agree that maturity may make up points in performance. Good point.

 

[Mathman]

You're saying that winning Euros and the GPF (neither of which Kristi could have competed at) is as legacy building as winning a second world title, and I don't agree with that.

What we need here is a well-defined objective criteron. I propose the following:

Olympic gold medal = 4 points, silver =2, bronze =1.
World Championship = 1 point.
Europeans, 4CC, GP Final and Jr. Worlds = 0.5

That seems fair. So who's the GOAT?

Modern era (last half century):

Zagitova = 6.5 points
Medvedeva = 6.5 points
Yamaguchi = 6.5 points
Kwan = 9 points
Asada = 9 points
Kim = 10.5 points
Slutskaya = 11 points
Witt = 15 points.

Oldies but goodies:

Jeanette Alweg = 7 points
Barbara Ann Scott = 7 points
Herma Szabo =9 points
Tenley Albright = 9 points
Carol Heiss = 11 points
Sonja Henie = 25 points

(This excludes pairs titles, North American Championships, Olympic team medals,etc.)

 

[attyfan]

Alina's competitive record is impressive, but not unique ... Tara Lipinsky, for example, also won everything she was eligible for (at least as a senior -- Nats, Worlds, Olys and GPF-- then called the Championship Series) ... it isn't her fault that she doesn't have continental titles also (ineligible for Euros and retired before the 4CCs came into existence.

IMO, she can't qualify as a GOAT until she changes the sport as a whole. That we are having this debate over the ladies event establishes Madge Sayers eligibility for GOAT-status as a sport-changer. That ladies still complete in short skirts, with routines choreographed to music, shows Sonia Henie's eligibility as a sport-changer. Alina, by contrast, hasn't done anything to change the sport -- if pushing her competitors to be their best by being a tough competitor is enough, then almost all "big names" are GOATs.

 

[Mathman]

Tara Lipinsky, for example, also won everything she was eligible for (at least as a senior -- Nats, Worlds, Olys and GPF.

Tara accomplished the unique feat of winning the Grand Prix Finals twice while never winning even one individual event.

 

[Tere19]

I though Tara didnt have a WC title so she too has all the important titles

 

[TallyT]

What we need here is a well-defined objective criteron. I propose the following:

Olympic gold medal = 4 points, silver =2, bronze =1.
World Championship = 1 point.
Europeans, 4CC, GP Final and Jr. Worlds = 0.5

That seems fair. So who's the GOAT?

This actually reminded me of a video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnzXXFzNXzs

... IJS Top 10 for women, counting up the medals attained at the Olympics and World Championships. It was 10 months ago so Alina would have moved into an updated list but I thought you might be interested. Unlike the men's video, I don't think the maker went back and added European/4CC/GPF in a later note, but it should be that hard for anyone to do so... of course it's not definitive, but it's interesting.

 

[ladyjane]

I don't 'do' GOATs. To me it is impossible to be a GOAT in figure skating...I mean why would Alina be greater that Sonia Henie who after all got three olympic titles? Or the wonderful Katarina Witt who got two (despite debates concerning deserving others, that applies to all of them)? Or the wonderful Irina Slutskaya and Michelle Kwan who both got 2nd and 3rd at the Olympics, no golds) but are still remembered well? I just might consider Alyona a GOAT, but then, wasn't there this wonderful Russian athlete who got three Olympic golds? Even the great Hanyu and Button only got two (though that might be 'so far' for one of them)! If one has to talk about 'Greatest' then to me that means someone who stayed for a long time still collecting medals along the way. Fernandez maybe, who stayed long, got 7 european titles in a row, two world titles and and Olympic medal. And I'll never forget the wonderful Alexei Yagudin, even though his almost equally wonderful rival got more medals in the end. Not to be disparaging about any current athlete, but it is sport after all. So, in a few years' time there will be better athletes than Alina. But she certainly has done well, and I hope she will continue. And, who knows, will still collect medals. Then, we can talk about 'greatest', though even then it will remain relative, and within the context of a certain era.

 

[Mathman]

This actually reminded me of a video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnzXXFzNXzs

Cool.

I don't think the maker went back and added European/4CC/GPF in a later note, but it should be that hard for anyone to do so...

For a few skaters it makes a big difference. Irina Slutskaya has gold from 7 Europeans and 4 Grand Prix Finals. Mao Asada won 3 Four Continents and 4 GP Finals. Going back farther, Katarina Witt has 6 European titles to go with her Olympics and Worlds medals.

 

[Scott512]

I though Tara didnt have a WC title so she too has all the important titles

I thought she won Worlds at age 14. She sure was great while she lasted which wasn't long. I'm hoping Alina can make it into early 20s before she retires from competition. She doesn't have to stay at the top If she gets surpassed so what.