Fading Dancers

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Is my list correct? (My premise is that they are no longer contenders at Worlds) Are there more teams than my list? This is not a bash but an observation.

The Kerrs

Gregory and Petchukov

DeLobel and Schoenfelder

Faiella and Scali

 

[nymkfan51]

I'm not sure Joe. This year's Worlds results were not the ones I would have expected, so I'm not sure we can definitively write anyone off this early. Del/Scho won Europeans, so I think you can't count them out. The Kerrs are still a team on the rise, IMO, so we can't know how far they can go yet. Greg/Pet were much improved IMO, so next season is huge for them. The Italians I think are probably the least likely to make any moves.

Dance seems fairly wide open right now, and that's a good thing. I want to see if this trend continues next season, or if we go back to the same old, same old.

 

[JonnyCoop]

I was under the impression -- and I may be misinformed, so if I am please correct me -- that Deloebel & Schoenfelder were going to retire after this season?? I'm also under the impression that Denkova/Staviysky & Dubreil/Lauzon will not be around next season either. Having those three couples gone is going to open up some room at the top, and, at least on a EUROPEAN, not necessarily World, level, I think the Kerrs and Faiella/Scali are going to be medal contenders.

As for Gregory & Petukhov, I think they did kind of lose a little bit of ground this year, but I think it's a little early to count them out. I'm not sure, however, that they would ever be in Worlds medal contention anyway, as long as Belbin & Agosto are in the picture. And, as far as they, as well as the Kerrs and Faiella/Scali, are concerned, they haven't been around that long, at least in terms of "ice dancing years". Some couples take close to a decade or even a little longer to finally get up there. K/K, G/P, and F/S are relative rookies compared to the length of time some World Dance medalists were around before finally getting the podium. Look at Denkova & Staviysky.....

 

[layman]

By your line of reasoning Joe, Bourne & Kraatz faded away after the 2000 season, Lobacheva & Averbuhk faded away after the 2000 season too, Annisina & Piezerat faded away after the 2001 season, and Denkova & Staviski faded away after the 2004 season.

I don't think a temporary set-back with placement can stop any team from improving and coming back strong.

Gregory & Pethukov have nothing to be ashamed of and have made impressive improvements in the past season (vastly improved posture, line, flow, edging, speed, ice-coverage, precision, difficulty, vastly improved footwork, vastly improved dancing period). Maintaining a place in the top 10 at Worlds with several new (and great) dance teams moving up from Juniors to Seniors is a HUGE accomplishment and not to be sneezed at.

 

[antmanb]

Is my list correct? (My premise is that they are no longer contenders at Worlds) Are there more teams than my list? This is not a bash but an observation.

The Kerrs

Gregory and Petchukov

DeLobel and Schoenfelder

Faiella and Scali

Have any of the dancers on the list except Delobel and Schoenfelder ever been world contenders? Guess it depends on what you mean by contender but none of the others have ever been podium threats.

The Kerrs have had less than a season of training in the US under Evgengy Platov. Their results in the CD at worlds showed that their CDs have certainly imrpoved in th short time they've spent training with Platov. I didn't really like their FD this season and regardless of the comments they made that they always knew that they would return to teh music from laxst of the mohicans later in their career in order to do it justice, I'm not generally a big fan of skaters using music they used several seasons ago to revamp it. I think they should have gotten completely new and fresh music and work with platov to create completely new pieces.

I think that this summer and next season will really show what Sinead and John can do.

Ant

 

[Tonichelle]

Gregory & Pethukov have nothing to be ashamed of and have made impressive improvements in the past season (vastly improved posture, line, flow, edging, speed, ice-coverage, precision, difficulty, vastly improved footwork, vastly improved dancing period). Maintaining a place in the top 10 at Worlds with several new (and great) dance teams moving up from Juniors to Seniors is a HUGE accomplishment and not to be sneezed at.

 

[AliasJohnDoe]

I have a feeling Cappellini/Lanotte will be surpassing Faiella/Scali by 2010.

As for the Kerrs, I don't see them improving technically and they dance soooo far apart. As for relating to each other, maybe it's just me, but the brother/sister thing is always in back of my mind and it puts a blinder on me(There, I said it but I'm being honest ). Same for the Zaretskis and Hubbells (and I love both teams).

I believe Virtue/Moir may pass Dubreuil/Lauzon by 2010, and Davis/White will not only stay ahead of Gregory/Petukhov, but pass Belbin/Agosto by 2010 also.

I prefer Khokhlova/Noviski to Domnina/Shabalin, but I'm hoping Platonova/Maximishin can pull it together next season and make the World team.

 

[AliasJohnDoe]

I'm also curious to see how Cha/Saks will be received next season if they compete. Will they be a fading team or a medal contender.

 

[Dee4707]

and Davis/White will not only stay ahead of Gregory/Petukhov, but pass Belbin/Agosto by 2010 also.

This was eluded to at Worlds, my question is why?? I like dance but don't know much about it. Why is Davis/White jumping ahead of 2 teams that have been around for 4-5 years? Can someone explain?

Dee

 

[JonnyCoop]

As for the Kerrs, I don't see them improving technically and they dance soooo far apart. As for relating to each other, maybe it's just me, but the brother/sister thing is always in back of my mind and it puts a blinder on me(There, I said it but I'm being honest ). Same for the Zaretskis and Hubbells (and I love both teams).

This reminds me of something that one of the late-night talk show hosts -- for some reason, I think it was Jay Leno -- said during the Calgary Olympics about the Dance event -- something along the line of "So you see them out there and they're skating around in these intimate positions and then all the sudden the commentator says, 'They're brother and sister' and you just think EEEEUUUUUWWWW!!!!"

 

[nymkfan51]

Dee ... it sounds as if I have the same knowledge of dance that you feel you do, so I will try to answer your question.
I was blown away by these 2 young teams. They seem to do everything in a more secure fashion(if that makes any sense). They seem crisper in their moves and actually seem faster to me. And the twizzles ... WOW!!!

I love Melissa and Denis, so I hope I'm wrong ... but I honestly believe they will move ahead of them ... maybe as soon as next season. I'm not quite as sure about overtaking Tanith and Ben, but I will say one thing ... those 2 better come to the yard ready to play next year ... on opening day! They need great programs in October ... not January. If they were to start any one of the next 3 seasons off the way they did this one, they would be very vulnerable, IMO. They still might be ... even with great programs, but I don't think that's a given by any means.

 

[SeaniBu]

I would think that G&P are just having one of those "years" with a great teams like B&A (also a shaky season) taking the "US spotlight" and D&W coming up through the mist with such support and enthusiasm, it is really impressive they are cranking out these great / entertaining programmes. I think similar things were starting to come to mind in regards to the current ladies Olys champ and the newly reining world champ as well.

I will not count out in anyway shape or form Melissa & Denis.

Faiella and Scali had an innovative lift added last/this season didn't they? I might be thinking of the wrong team? Not that it says they are not "fading" but not that they aren't trying. JAT

 

[dorispulaski]

Another interesting question is what those teams that faded a bit this season can do to return to upward mobility, and can they do it?

Kerrs-3 things that they can do for sure:

1. Not do an Indian or Cowboy program. It's very seldom that the judges seem to love either of these types of program.
2. Not have any half revolution jumps in the OD. 2.00 points penalty is just huge.
3. Most importantly, arrive at their first Grand Prix in Great Shape. At Skate America this last year, they were ill-trained, out of shape, and were hugely worse than G&P. In fact, they also finished behind Pechalat and Bourzat and M&Z.. Properly trained, they could have finished second or third instead of finishing 5th..
   

All of those 3 things are more than possible for the Kerrs. Their situation is helped by the fact that the 2nd place British ice dancers are no where near the level of the Kerrs at this time. Additionally, next year's OD is folk-the kind of dance where the squick factor for brother sister pairs is least a problem, instead of this year's tango where the squick factor is huge--in fact the only successful brother/sister tango I recall was the Duchesnay's very seedy version of the Argentine tango OSP in 1988.

Faiella and Scali have the additional problem of having to fend off Cappellini and Lanotte, who are very good and rapidly improving. I expect C&L to pass them next year unless F&S suddenly do some hugely different things.

G&P-dear me. At Skate America, they seemed hugely better than the previous year. And, in fact, they succeeded in making the GP final this year, something they had never done before. Their problem is worse than F&S --Davis and White beat them at both Nationals and Worlds. And soundly beat them at worlds, by almost 9 points. In fact, a case could definitely be made for D&W being the most improved dance team worldwide this year.That puts G&P in 3rd place in the US and likely to remain so, a situation where holding their top 10 at worlds becomes just that much more difficult.

About all they could do is apply for Russian citizenship and try to fight off K&N for 2nd place Russian team.

DelSchoes won Europeans this year. That's their best finish ever, so I don't see them as a fading team, just as a team who didn't have their best Worlds performance ever.

 

[euterpe]

Faiella/Scali seem to have horrible mistakes in either the OD or FD that cause them to drop down in the standings. This scenario has happened again and again.

The Kerrs and Gregory/Petukhov seem to have stalled after a couple of years where they rose steadily in the standings. If the Kerrs are being trained by Platov, they have a bit of a problem: Platov has been in Russia for most of this past season, and who knows what his plans are for the future. Many of the Russian coaches are returning to Russia and plan to stay there. Their students have the choice of going to Russia to train there, which may or may not be possible or desirable.

Gregory/Petukhov are holding grimly on to their place in the top 10, but they may find themselves being pushed down by other young teams, including Cappellini/Zanni and a third Russian team.

The advantage that many of the younger teams have is that they 'grew up' under CoP and didn't have to adapt their skills to a new system.

 

[layman]

[/LIST]

G&P-dear me. At Skate America, they seemed hugely better than the previous year. And, in fact, they succeeded in making the GP final this year, something they had never done before. Their problem is worse than F&S --Davis and White beat them at both Nationals and Worlds.
.

Actually Doris, Gregory & Pethukov defeated Davis and White at Nationals and at all their Grand Prix match-ups.

 

[La Rhumba]

The Kerrs have had less than a season of training in the US under Evgengy Platov. Their results in the CD at worlds showed that their CDs have certainly imrpoved in th short time they've spent training with Platov. I didn't really like their FD this season and regardless of the comments they made that they always knew that they would return to teh music from laxst of the mohicans later in their career in order to do it justice, I'm not generally a big fan of skaters using music they used several seasons ago to revamp it. I think they should have gotten completely new and fresh music and work with platov to create completely new pieces.

I think that this summer and next season will really show what Sinead and John can do.

They'd already created their FD before they started working with Platov last Summer, after he came over for a Summer Camp and they decided to ask him. He did create their OD. Unfortunately even when they skate to very original music like the Porridge Men for their Scottish FD, they still get scored behind what I consider lesser couples, and don't get any kudos for choreography or originality. As for the other poster saying "they dance soooo far apart" - they skate considerably closer and with far more more intricate holds than Khocklova-Novitski who mostly skate in open hold in between their gymnastic elements.
I wouldn't describe winning your first international title - Oberstdorf - and finishing 5th at Europeans as 'going nowhere' myself.

 

[dorispulaski]

This was eluded to at Worlds, my question is why?? I like dance but don't know much about it. Why is Davis/White jumping ahead of 2 teams that have been around for 4-5 years? Can someone explain?

Dee

Davis and White are jumping ahead of those teams, for the same reason that Virtue and Moir are jumping ahead of those teams. Both D&W and V&M are awesome ice dancers. And D&W are improving very, very rapidly.

At this point D&W have the world's best twizzles, a distinction that carried B&A a long ways. They were the first team this year to get all level 4's on a free dance (at NHK), something G&P still have never done. They have great speed over the ice. They skate very close together. They managed to score higher in the Golden Waltz, one of the hardest CD's, at 4CC's than V&M.

And they have a hugely appealing personality on the ice.

Need any more reasons?

 

[La Rhumba]

Another interesting question is what those teams that faded a bit this season can do to return to upward mobility, and can they do it?

Kerrs-3 things that they can do for sure:

1. Not do an Indian or Cowboy program. It's very seldom that the judges seem to love either of these types of program.
2. Not have any half revolution jumps in the OD. 2.00 points penalty is just huge.
3. Most importantly, arrive at their first Grand Prix in Great Shape. At Skate America this last year, they were ill-trained, out of shape, and were hugely worse than G&P. In fact, they also finished behind Pechalat and Bourzat and M&Z.. Properly trained, they could have finished second or third instead of finishing 5th..
   

All of those 3 things are more than possible for the Kerrs. Their situation is helped by the fact that the 2nd place British ice dancers are no where near the level of the Kerrs at this time.

I couldn't disagree more with every single point you've made.

Firstly they haven't actually gone down the rankings, they finished 11th at 06 Worlds and 11th in 07 in a very tough field. They climbed 3 places to finish 5th at Euros, and finished 4th at C0R GP with the LOTM FD and beating M&Z in the process.

They did not intentionally do a half revolution jump in the OD, and whether Sinead actually did it or not is debatable, as many people have tried to spot it and can't, and no other TS did all season, whereas G&P have a blatant illegal knee sliding move and get away with it. I doubt if any GB couple would finish ahead of G&P at SA irrespective of their condition, however there were justifiable reasons why they weren't in top shape at SA last year.

Finally, it's a hindrance to have such a weak GB No.2 couple, as it neither pushes them to keep on their toes, which is why they've gone to train abroad, or creates a strong *presence* at Europeans for the GB Team. Having strong No.2s obviously helps, as does the selection of the Judging Panel and TS Team. The fact is from CD to FD the Kerr's skated better than 2 other couples at Worlds - F&S and G&P - but still the scores favoured the other 2 and conspired to keep them out of the top 10. Apart from a bit of moaning from a few Brits - what do they care? The Kerr's could go out next season and skate brilliantly and still not get the scores they deserve, we've found that out very clearly the hard way.

 

[La Rhumba]

I suggest everyone reads this post

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/SkateFans/message/179058 :agree:

 

[slutskayafan21]

I agree the prospects of those teams for their personal goals for the future, all look to be fading. Delobel/Schoenfelder again failed to win a World medal. If they could not beat Belbin/Agosto this season when they were having a hard time finding the right vehicle for themselves and were generaly struggling a bit, then it probably wont ever happen again. I am not sure Delobel/Schoenfelder can hope to ever beat Domnina/Shabalin in the future. Even if both the Bulgarians and Dubreuil/Lauzon exit then there are young teams nipping at their heels. If they get very fortunate they might sneak out a bronze before retiring.

Kerr/Kerr and Faiella/Scali are not old in ice dancing terms but much newer and younger teams like Davis/White and Moir/Virtue blowing past them at this years Worlds all but extinguishes any hope they may have had to be future medal contenders. Whether they can ever reach the top 6 or 7 in the world at this point remains a bit of a mystery even.

Gregory/Petuhkov look like they will have a hard time even being the 2nd American team again.