2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[zounger]

maybe something slipped by me

That's must be it.

 

[Fluture]

I agree. I’ve never quite got the big thing with Aliona’s artistry because I can’t engage that much with her performances and she isn’t passionate or emotional like Anna. I enjoy the aesthetics of her skating skills and positions very much and she has nice musicality but the only time I’ve seen a hint of expression is in the second half of her angel SP and vampire ex. I don’t think she realises how to interpret calm classical music yet...I always feel like a terrible person for thinking that and feel like the only one in the world who thinks that [emoji23]

I don't think you're the only one in the world who thinks that, given the recent comments here. No, seriously, I do agree that Aliona can engage with the audience more. But I saw glimpses of that especially in her 2017-18 SP that wasn't only lyrical and she did have some intensity there needed for the piece of music. It's kind of hard to show too many expressions to Romeo and Juliet if you don't want to make it comical. Hers was more subtle. I liked her SP this season more in that regard because she did show some expressions in the second half of the program, like you said. I do think there's a different in "interpreting" music and "performing" or "engaging with the audience". Interpreting the music doesn't necessarily have to be with your face, it can be with your body and moves only. And I think Aliona does a nice job of that, whatever music she's being given. Her musicality, imo, is only beaten by Anna. But Anna is a rare talent. What bothers me about Anna a bit and makes me enjoy her skating less, is that she never points her toes. She interprets the music to her fingertips but then her toes..... :gaah: I hope she can improve on that because if not for that, she'd probably be one of my favourites in her skating.

That's the thing. When you first look at Alena, her skating is beautiful. The posture is sublime, and she's so smooth and quick across the ice. You can notice this without music. But then you look at the performance as a whole, the interpretation of music. And that's when I realized the performance isn't there. It's just beautiful moves and lines - her arms are very pretty - but it has nothing to do with the music. There is no change in tension or variation in her upper body to respond to the music; it just looks like it's on one level through the entire performance and to me it looks flat. And her face is blank for most of it as well. I don't think it's the lyrical programs that are a problem (although it certainly is more difficult to interpret than a dramatic piece). But Alina's POTO was lyrical and there was variation in expression. And of course, Kostner is known for lyrical programs but the intention of each move is clear and she has a masterful performance.

That's why I think the Twilight program might be good for Alena. It provides her with more than just a one dimensional lyrical skate that we've seen over and over. Hopefully she'll embrace the character well in the program. I think she understands it too, as she's spoken about liking Twilight. While I think the film was ridiculous (even though I like Stewart as an actress - just not in the saga), it'll give Alena the opportunity to improve. Musicality, however, is something I believe to be difficult to improve on. You either have it or you don't. Alena's skating skills do help her mask the lack of it. Not enough if you watch multiple performances. But if you watch the dance videos of Anna and Alina, it's clear they are much more musical than Alena. Anna has musicality like the she's been touched by the musicality god himself. She never spots responding to the music, and even the falls don't make her miss a beat and the performance never suffers. The JGPF SP still had the best performance even though she made huge mistakes. The performance only falls when the program is over. Sasha is also very musical in the modern pieces.

Apart from skating skills, what is going for Alena is her spins. She's flexible, centred, and quick. She flows between positions effortlessly. I think Alina's spins are beautiful as well, but even those at nowhere close to Alena's.

That's why I said above that for me, interpretation of the music and performance are something entirely different. Like, Sasha can be a very engaging performer if she isn't too focused on her jumps but imo, she's nowhere near musical. She can make you excited, she can make you smile when you watch her skate but when you look at her body and arms, mostly she skates right through the music. Whereas Aliona expresses the notes with her body but has a calm and not too expressive look on her face and doesn't engage with the audience as much. Because you took Alina's POTO as an example, I will do the same. I said before that I liked her interpretation of it at Worlds because she seemed a bit more emotional. But I cannot see where she interprets the music better than Aliona does with her skating. And this is not about posture or transitions or whatever, it's simply about how each of them responds to each note of the piece. And I can see Alina's facial expressions changing and I can see her hitting the musical accents with her jumps and transitions (mostly). But this is the performance and the choreography and for the latter, she just executes what she was being given well. For me, musicality is what happens in between the choreography. And that's where Aliona but especially Anna outshine them all. I know everyone will be annoyed for me mentioning this again but I can't help myself, so here we go: I saw Aliona live. And I saw her compared to another Russian skater. It was her first JGP event that season and from watching her, it was very clear that she was still focused on the technical elements, the choreography. It wasn't a very engaging performance yet. But still, looking at her, I could see that despite the concentration on everything else, when she wasn't jumping or spinning, she moved her body to each note, almost naturally. That was something she didn't have to think of, it just came to her. I call that musicality. When you respond to the music with your body naturally even though your mind is focused on something else and your face shows it.

I think we will have to disagree on that here, though. I have already written everything I think of the 3A's strengths in PCS a while back and I don't feel like doing that again. So: eace:

 

[Fluture]

I just think it’s a bit strange when people judge a skater’s artistry based on their facial expressiveness - I think the body is a more important vessel for expressing music anyway - or equally, correlate how dramatic an expression is with how much a person is feeling. I think that even subtle expressions, like Alyona’s here, can convey as much feeling as the more pronounced ones.

Anna and Alyona have very different styles. Alyona’s face doesn’t radiate with emotion like Anna, but she can still elicit those emotions in the audience, and that is the goal of any performer. Her posture, grace, and skating skills are world class and are all the tools she needs for story-telling. Both she and Anna are delightful to watch, honestly.



I must disagree with this, because you can see a clear change in upper body tension in the second half of Alyona’s Departure program. Her arm movements become more abrupt and aggressive - I think signifies the angel’s desperation as she starts to fall and and loses control of her wings - and her facial expressions more dramatic. After the combination spin, she throws down her arms and accelerates into the step sequence, wherein her movements are more frenzied and despairing, and she looks towards the sky, as a falling angel might do. Watching her short program muted, you certainly can tell when the music picks up speed and intensity.

She sometimes misses a few musical cues when she makes a mistake, but she has reasons for it - e.g. when she fell during the Russian Nationals she had to complete the step sequence in order to get the points for it, which made her late for the last part of the program and that couldn’t be helped. Even so, she skipped some of the choreography and caught the ending on time. That was very sensible and musically aware on her part.

In the words of Ted Barton, who was an amazing commentator for the Junior Grand Prix last season: “she doesn’t just hear the music, she feels the music.”

That is my take on Alyona!

Just saw this post. You wrote everything I was thinking better than I could have. I agree on everything. So, thank you for that.

 

[SnowWhite]

Personally, what a lot of people have said about Alena is how I felt during her first junior season, but I connected much more with her performance last season and I felt like she put more emotions into her programs. I don't think she's as expressive or musical as Anna, though - Anna is super special in that respect. But then other parts of her skating are better than Anna's at this point (like SS).

 

[Ophelia]

I just think it’s a bit strange when people judge a skater’s artistry based on their facial expressiveness - I think the body is a more important vessel for expressing music anyway - or equally, correlate how dramatic an expression is with how much a person is feeling. I think that even subtle expressions, like Alyona’s here, can convey as much feeling as the more pronounced ones.

I agree with you too. I think facial expressiveness by itself is a gimmicky way to express artistry (*cough*Ashley Wagner*cough*). For me, true musicality / artistry / whatever you want to call it means that I could put a paper bag over your head and still be able to feel what you're trying to convey through your body lines.

 

[ruga]

I too agree that lack of different dramatic facial expressions is not a big disadvantage. To begin with, judges don't really see skater's face during program. Also, the music Aliona has skated to required subtle and elegant movements and expressions. Her Twilight ex was more intense and therefore she showed more energy and diverse emotions.

 

[karina17]

I think one reason why there's so much disagreement on Alyona's musicality is because people seem to define musicality differently. I am not a skater, but I've been dancing since I could walk, and I would say that there are two main ways a performer shows musicality - on a more basic level, responding to the general mood and character of the music playing, and on a more detailed level, responding to specific notes in the music on top of that.

Personally, what I've seen in Alyona's skating is that she does well in responding to the song she's skating to (and to an extent the character she plays, you can see the story of the falling angel in her SP, and the vampire in her FS). She doesn't usually respond to specific musical accents or notes in the music, though, which is why people do say that she is graceful and beautiful but looks like she skates through her music, or that they could swap out the audio and it would still work. Alyona, to me, seems like a skater who responds to the general feel of her music, but not every note of the music.

If you compared her to Sasha and Anna, you could say that Anna does both of those things re: musicality, and Sasha does none, which would put Alyona between the two. Regarding Sasha, she is absolutely incredible in technical power, there is no way anybody could ever deny that. She has incredible jumps, her spins have improved so much over the past year, and her skating skills and the levels she consistently gets for all her elements are nothing for anyone to scoff at. But honestly, she has no musicality (which is of course something she has lots of time to work on). Sasha does not respond to the music at all. She knows the very basics of how to perform a character - she knows that she must smile and act coy in Big Spender, and that she must look more serious in The Fifth Element. These are things you can tell a kid and they will understand immediately. But she does not respond to music in terms of movement, at all. You can see it in her dance videos as well as her programs - Sasha is an incredible skater, but she has no musicality. (And that is fine. She is young and has all the time in the world.)

I think one way of illustrating the 3A's musical skills is looking at one specific portion of their free skates from earlier this year. All three have a section where the music changes from one vibe to another, from slow to upbeat. The mood changes, so naturally a performer should respond to that. For Anna, this transition is between her combination spin and her 3Lz combo, when she slows down and then splits her arms dramatically over her head. For Alena, this is right between her combo spin and her 3F3T, where she sort of pauses and then throws her hands to the side on the accent of the music. For Sasha, this is between her combo spin and her triple flip, when she stops on the drumbeat, throws her hands out to the side, then hunches to do that robotic modern dance arm movement that I can't really describe. For all three, it's a transition between slow music and uptempo music. So how do they respond to that?

Anna nearly always hits that dramatic accent, right on time, forceful and sharp just as that note is. The one time she didn't was Bratislava and as a whole that was her most nervous FS of the entire season. Aside from that one performance, I think it shows a lot of musicality that she doesn't always come out of her spin at the right time, but it doesn't matter, she always finds a way to make up for it, then hits that note right on time. Compare Russian Nationals with JWC. At RusNats she was late coming out of the spin, so she cut out a bit of the choreography, sped up on that slow arched back movement she does, then hit the accent right on time. JWC was the opposite - she finished the spin early, so she did the arched back movement more slowly, drawing it out, then raised her arms very slowly and waited just the right amount of time, then hit the accent right on time again. So no matter how badly the previous element takes her off the music, she knows exactly how much time she needs to either waste or make up for, to hit that accent. That, to me, illustrates how naturally musical she is. Putting that aside, in terms of responding to the actual shift in tempo, you can see the difference in her movement as well as her face. Before the shift, her facial expressions are more muted and fit the music well. After the shift she looks more fierce and gives off a sort of evil vibe. And she doesn't only change her face after the music changes, she also changes all her body movements - she hits notes much sharper, splays her fingers more, and makes every movement look more forceful. Anna has many flaws in her skating but she is extremely gifted in her musicality and versatility in performance.

Alyona comes second in this. Her music cut takes place right after her combo spin going into the second half of her program. She more-often-than-not hits the movement on the music change, but I haven't seen as much instinctive musicality as I did from Anna. Sometimes she hits it, sometimes she is off, even if she finishes her spin at the right time. I remember she hit it early at Russian Nationals, which as far as I know is seen as one of her best Juliet performances, but to her credit, I also remember her being right on time at Russian Junior Nationals. Still, she usually hits it, and she knows that she has to make that movement strong and forceful, which she does very well. In terms of changing her face and movements, her face remains the same after the music change, and her movements don't change quite as clearly as Anna's do - but to be fair, she changes her movement quite obviously in her EX when Supermassive Black Hole comes on. So I would say that Alyona responds to music changes when they are very, very different pieces, but does not yet understand the differences between two graceful pieces regardless of tempo and mood - for her, it seems to be either "hit hard" or "hit soft", no in between mode, which is why her first two pieces of Juliet music seem to fall under the same "hit soft" category to her. She can definitely improve moving forward, but you can see that she is not as musically gifted at the moment. That is alright for being only fifteen. She has brilliant spins and skating skills and jumps, nobody can take that away.

Sasha...does not respond to the music. Like I said, she knows how to perform facially for a character, because Big Spender showed us that, but she does not know how to respond to music. Her movement stays the same throughout her Fifth Element program - it is a program with FOUR different pieces of music, all with different vibes, and she does not change her face or movement at all. It seems like for one character she portrays, she stays the exact same throughout the program. Alyona, at least, responds to different kinds of music, most obviously in her Vampire EX. Anna responds to even small changes in music. Sasha just doesn't do that. (Yet. YET. She still has time). Regarding the music change after Sasha's combo spin, going into her 3F, she tends to...skate right through it. Choreographically, it's quite clear that she is supposed to throw out her arms on the first drum beat, then turn on the second and make that modern arm movement on the mechanical sound. She does not do that a lot of the time. Unlike Anna, who can come out of her spin at the wrong time and make up for it very easily and naturally, Sasha will just come out of her spin and throw her arms out with no regard for where she is in the music. Either she does not care about the music, or she does not have a sense of musicality and struggles to figure out when the accent is coming. Either way, she does not demonstrate musicality in her skating right now.

This post turned out WAY longer than I intended it to be, so here's the summary:

(1) Anna. Responds to music on a very intricate level. Always hits her accents and knows how to adjust choreography to help her hit the most important notes in the choreography. (I just remembered that in one of the performances of her Nocturne SP, she fell behind the music in her step sequence and instead of rushing through or missing steps to catch up, she basically went "one movement backwards" so the original accent notes fell one beat behind and she highlighted every previous movement instead of the correct movement, so she could fit in all the movements but still look like she was right on the music. I think my teachers would kill to have someone with that kind of musicality at age 13, lol.)

(2) Alyona. For now it seems that she has two modes - "hit soft" or "hit hard" - and doesn't seem to notice all that's in between. Responds to music in that sense, but is not quite as detailed or natural as Anna. She hits musical accents more often than not. She varies her movements for very obvious musical changes, but not on a more detailed level. Her incredible SS should make up for it in PCS, though. And people often tend to lump grace and elegance (which Alyona has) in with PE and IN, so she should do great this coming season regardless of what this random Internet user is saying about her musicality.

(3) Sasha. Does not respond to music at all. Still has time to improve, of course, and her technical power is undeniable.

This is how I view the 3A in terms of musical ability. You can see it in their programs as well as their dance videos. I find their dance videos interesting because it's a complete different style from their programs, and because you can see musicality very easily from there.

For musicality, you could argue that versatility in style is also a part of musicality, and I could elaborate on each of the 3A's versatility in performance...but I think I've made this post long enough and need to shut up.

 

[Scott512]

But opinions can still be biased since she favors one over the other. It's more of a person-specific bias. Journalists are supposed to present facts not opinions.

Exactly.

Well, in my personal opinion, Christine Brennan only started praising Zhenya after she lost to Alina. I don't recall her being especially complimentary to Zhenya prior to the Olympics, but if I am wrong, please correct me and give me the sources. I somehow recall her mentioning Zhenya was consistent all the time because she kept the same layout year after year, but this could be an incorrect recollection. Anyway, during this whole article, she was basically saying Zagitova "gamed the system" to win and otherwise didn't deserve to win. Sure, I get that she had the bonus for doing jumps in the second half, but come on- the same bonus applies to the male skaters as well. When Hanyu or Chen place quads in the second half, are they accused of gaming the system to their advantage? Anyway, the whole article, including the title "Wrong Russian Won Olympics" was just flame baiting and dismissive of Alina’s victory. I wonder if she would have written a similar article when Tara Lipinski beat Michelle Kwan? "Wrong American Wins Olympics." Gosh, as a huge Michelle Kwan fan during that era, even I would have known it was a wrong and spiteful thing to say. Anyway, just had to post my 2 cents worth. I actually like Christine Brennan very much for her other sports coverage. But in this case, it just felt like an inflammatory article.

You are spot-on without Christine Brennan only started to praise Zhenya after she barely got edged by Alina for olympic gold. The article was written to harm Alina. Brennan is so arrogant she thinks people won't catch up to her BS. LOL..

She also wrote 'she doesn’t even try a jump until she’s been on the ice for more than two minutes' which makes it seem as if those two minutes are just a warmup and not incredibly challenging.

I remember that too. I know Brennan's angle so her comments did not surprise me they were very Ashley Wagner like in that they were very dismissive about the new Olympic champion. And when I read that it seemed like it was the first time Christine Brennan was even aware that Aliina back loaded

 

[Alex65]

all post

This is of course a lot of words But it was interesting for me to read this and I cannot disagree in general. Interesting observations and you could not offend anyone in general. :thumbsup: I would be grateful if you make a similar analysis in the course of the new season with new programs.

 

[Fluture]

Exactly.
You are spot-on without Christine Brennan only started to praise Zhenya after she barely got edged by Alina for olympic gold. The article was written to harm Alina. Brennan is so arrogant she thinks people won't catch up to her BS. LOL..

I have no pronounced opinion on Brennan because I haven‘t read enough articles of hers but I‘m sorry, what you say is still simply not entirely true. NoviceFan pointed out to you that Brennan had indeed been praising Zhenya way beforehand, as early as going back to 2016. So, while I can see how that particular article of hers can and does come across as dismissive in some points, please still get the facts right.

 

[Grin]

I too agree that lack of different dramatic facial expressions is not a big disadvantage. To begin with, judges don't really see skater's face during program. Also, the music Aliona has skated to required subtle and elegant movements and expressions. Her Twilight ex was more intense and therefore she showed more energy and diverse emotions.

Alena's face is expressive enough for me

 

[Scott512]

I have no pronounced opinion on Brennan because I haven‘t read enough articles of hers but I‘m sorry, what you say is still simply not entirely true. NoviceFan pointed out to you that Brennan had indeed been praising Zhenya way beforehand, as early as going back to 2016. So, while I can see how that particular article of hers can and does come across as dismissive in some points, please still get the facts right.

Novice may be correct but I don't recall Brennan writing articles praising Zhenya before PC. Although that in itself may have already slanted her opinion of Alina being undeserving of the gold. .My point and opinion how dismissive Brennan has been has not changed. Especially her as a renowned journalist and pushing 60 years old to refer to Alina as Zagi and Zhenya as Med during the last winter Olympcs really struck me the wrong way because it was condescending and dismissive. But Christine is a big Ashley Wagner fan so she has that going for her And once Wagner was critical of Alinas back loading Brennan joined the party. Hmmmmm. I can't wait to read Brennans amazing articles on the rise of Alysa Liu to challenge the Russian ladies dynasty. I'm sure those articles will be very fair and unbiased.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

Still no news on the snow leopards club?

 

[Edwin]

Still no news on the snow leopards club?

This is their home page, but it doesn't seem to be updated very often: http://снежныебарсы.рф/otdelenie-figurnoe-katanie-na-konkah/

Snow Leopards is more of an ice hockey club.

 

[Tavi...]

Novice may be correct but I don't recall Brennan writing articles praising Zhenya before PC. Although that in itself may have already slanted her opinion of Alina being undeserving of the gold. .My point and opinion how dismissive Brennan has been has not changed. Especially her as a renowned journalist and pushing 60 years old to refer to Alina as Zagi and Zhenya as Med during the last winter Olympcs really struck me the wrong way because it was condescending and dismissive. But Christine is a big Ashley Wagner fan so she has that going for her And once Wagner was critical of Alinas back loading Brennan joined the party. Hmmmmm. I can't wait to read Brennans amazing articles on the rise of Alysa Liu to challenge the Russian ladies dynasty. I'm sure those articles will be very fair and unbiased.

Pushing 60 years old? I am no particular fan of Christine Brennan’s, but that’s an incredibly sexist and completely unacceptable comment.

 

[karina17]

This is of course a lot of words But it was interesting for me to read this and I cannot disagree in general. Interesting observations and you could not offend anyone in general. :thumbsup: I would be grateful if you make a similar analysis in the course of the new season with new programs.

Sure!

I wrote that whole post because I missed the bus and had a full hour to kill before the next one came. When I inevitably miss my bus again I will write a post like that.

 

[nussnacker]

Pushing 60 years old? I am no particular fan of Christine Brennan’s, but that’s an incredibly sexist and completely unacceptable comment.

can you enlighten me, what's sexist and unacceptable about mentioning the age of men or women?
Is it bad because she's a woman? Would it be better if it was a man?
This was not a conversation of men vs women, it was about a renown journalist, a very mature one with a big platform vs 16-17 year old skater. They are both female.

Pretty sure Scott mentioned her age to juxtapose the fact that Alina is a child compared to Christine. Same would've applied if a male journalist at the age of 60 decided to say something not very nice about 14 year old baby Daniil Samsonov, use a nickname of some sort maybe, it's because of the age gap and has nothing to do with sex.

 

[Scott512]

Well, in my personal opinion, Christine Brennan only started praising Zhenya after she lost to Alina. I don't recall her being especially complimentary to Zhenya prior to the Olympics, but if I am wrong, please correct me and give me the sources. I somehow recall her mentioning Zhenya was consistent all the time because she kept the same layout year after year, but this could be an incorrect recollection. Anyway, during this whole article, she was basically saying Zagitova "gamed the system" to win and otherwise didn't deserve to win. Sure, I get that she had the bonus for doing jumps in the second half, but come on- the same bonus applies to the male skaters as well. When Hanyu or Chen place quads in the second half, are they accused of gaming the system to their advantage? Anyway, the whole article, including the title "Wrong Russian Won Olympics" was just flame baiting and dismissive of Alina’s victory. I wonder if she would have written a similar article when Tara Lipinski beat Michelle Kwan? "Wrong American Wins Olympics." Gosh, as a huge Michelle Kwan fan during that era, even I would have known it was a wrong and spiteful thing to say. Anyway, just had to post my 2 cents worth. I actually like Christine Brennan very much for her other sports coverage. But in this case, it just felt like an inflammatory article.

So many good points. Especially about would she have written an inflammatory article like wrong American darling won when Tara edged Michelle in 1998 for Olympic gold? The answer of course is no. But I will say no more on this topic becaue its like a cat chasing its tail at this point. Brennan is what she is and she isn't going to change.

 

[andromache]

So many good points. Especially about would she have written an inflammatory article like wrong American darling won when Tara edged Michelle in 1998 for Olympic gold? The answer of course is no. But I will say no more on this topic becaue its like a cat chasing its tail at this point. Brennan is what she is and she isn't going to change.

Actually, Christine Brenann is pretty notorious for HATING Tara Lipinski during Tara's skating career. Christine was a Michelle fan, and yes she thought the wrong American won. The depiction of Tara and her family is nice at all nice in Christine's book (The Edge of Glory, I believe), while extremely complimentary to Michelle.

Here's an interview with Christine in 1998 after the event: https://www.salon.com/1998/02/20/featurea_9/

I think if she had been allowed to by her editor, Christine would have 10000% written an article titled "The Wrong American Won" in 1998.

 

[Tolstoj]

Maybe it was due to training with Plushenko and not having enough ice time, and some combos got undertrained?
With Panova I think she can get more consistent.
She needs a clean short, if Alysa will be putting out 3A-3T combo.

This is total speculation but i think Tarakanova issues with the short last season were mostly mental.

They moved the combo in the second half as the last jumping element and stick to it up until Nationals so clearly she can do it but maybe not as consistently in competition.

Then they changed the layout at Junior Nationals with the combo as the first element and more transitions and everything went great.

If you remember even with Eteri she has always had the combo as the first element of her SP and the year before with Panova she had issues in general with the lutz-toe.