Ashley Wagner assaulted by John Coughlin

[Moxiejan]

Well. This was supposed to be safe environment.

Why would it ever be a “safe environment” for underage skaters to leave the official hotel & go with other unsupervised skaters to an offsite party ... where they weren’t even offered a safe ride back to the official hotel?

 

[mrrice]

Even when I was a teenager, party culture rubbed me the wrong way. And it's really hard to avoid because most media about teenagers has it. Even when media shows the pitfalls, teenagers and young adults still want to have those experiences and I don't understand why when so much can go wrong. Minors definitely need to have more supervision by responsible adults. It won't completely solve the issue, but it'll help. I think there also needs to be more education about consent.

I really like this comment. As a former dancer, I can say this happens there as well. A lot of times the men will be much older than their easy to lift young partners. They are often "Thrown" together for hours of rehearsal time and often spend time together outside of rehearsal practicing lifts and other partner moves. It may start as subtle banter but, I've seen this happen and hope this incident leads to closer monitoring and an open dialog if a skater feels they're being harassed. Like a board, or oversite committee.

 

[bramweld]

The Russian comments on sports.ru about Ashley are disgusting, although that website tend to have disgusting comments on general

If ever there was a time and place for that ignore button it's NOW. We really don't need this.

 

[Moxiejan]

And honestly, with regards to the DUI comment - we were all teenagers once and I don't think people should be blamed for enjoying themselves. If these people were just high school kids and not athletes would we really be talking about them being chaperoned for alcohol?

It’s attitudes like these that result in a tragedy that just happened in a town near me ... five 16-year-olds “enjoying themselves” by drinking together & then all got in a car to go home ... except only one made it there, after weeks in the hospital. The other four were killed in a horrific crash in which the car exploded & they likely burned to death. Yes, they were just high school kids. And, yes, there still is an intensive investigation ongoing as to just where they got the alcohol. RIP, Gretna teens. Never forgotten.

 

[andromache]

Why would it ever be a “safe environment” for underage skaters to leave the official hotel & go with other unsupervised skaters to an offsite party ... where they weren’t even offered a safe ride back to the official hotel?

Um, when I was a teenager I went to parties with friends all the time. I think most teenagers do. I went away to college when I was 17, which is when I started drinking alcohol (yes, underage). Sometimes the parties turn into spontaneous sleepovers, precisely because everyone, at least among my peers, knew better than to drive drunk. And as long as no one at the party is a sexual predator, it is a safe environment! And no one ever assumes their friends/colleagues are sexual predators. If you're at a club, or a frat party with a lot of strangers, you know to be careful. But if you're at someone's house and you're friends with everyone there, you assume you're safe. And why shouldn't you? People generally don't worry about their friends assaulting them.

Unfortunately, we are currently reckoning with the fact that someone you like, trust, and respect can in fact be a sexual predator.

The only difference here is that they are elite athletes and during the day they happened to be at a federation event. Sure, because it was a federation event, it is fair to argue that the federation should have been responsible for the well-being of the minors at the event, and I think this is something USFS will take more seriously going forward.

 

[Edwin]

It’s attitudes like these that result in a tragedy that just happened in a town near me ... five 16-year-olds “enjoying themselves” by drinking together & then all got in a car to go home ... except only one made it there, after weeks in the hospital. The other four were killed in a horrific crash in which the car exploded & they likely burned to death. Yes, they were just high school kids. And, yes, there still is an intensive investigation ongoing as to just where they got the alcohol. RIP, Gretna teens. Never forgotten.

Here in the Netherlands it's illegal to sell alcohol or tobacco to under 18 year olds and the law is enforced on official vending points like supermarkets etc. Yet every year we have several of the tragedies mentioned above, either drunk or stoned youths killing themselves and their friends after 'having fun at a party'. Often the youths drank the alcohol their parents bought for them, since drinking lots is still part of youth culture amongst certain layers of society.

 

[snowflake]

Ashley :thumbsup:

Or people who will dismiss it with "well, it wasn't rape". "He stopped when she asked". "He had too much to drink and didn't know what he was doing". I also wonder how many other people he did this too, but also, it's a story that is familiar to far too many of us.

Yes, her story is beyond tragic because it’s way too common.

 

[vesperalvioletta]

Here in the Netherlands it's illegal to sell alcohol or tobacco to under 18 year olds and the law is enforced on supermarkets etc. Yet every year we have several of the tragedies mentioned above, either drunk or stoned youths killing themselves and their friends after 'having fun at a party'. Often the youths drank the alcohol their parents bought for them, since drinking lots is still part of youth culture amongst certain layers of society.

This is very similar to what happens in the US, except that it's illegal to sell alcohol to anyone under the age of 21. Unfortunately, tragedies involving underage people using drugs and alcohol are still a pretty frequent occurance here too.

 

[ancientpeas]

The problem is what if those "responsible adults" are actually the problem? Canada has a very famous case involving hockey player Sheldon Kennedy by Graham James. When Sheldon very bravely came forward with his story Theoren Fleury said it never happened (they were on the same jr. team) and it wasn't until years later that he admitted he was abused too. So much shame and guilt are often wrapped up in these cases. It takes incredible braveness to come forward.

We constantly allow ourselves to be distracted from the issue: was it the alcohol, was it the drugs, was her skirt to short, was she too flirtatious, was she asking for it. It is smoke and mirrors really. Consent is consent. It is not complicated. It only becomes complicated when one person feels entitled to take from another person what they have not offered freely and willingly.

 

[Casual]

Lack of proper socialization, and laser focus on achieving physical prowess to the detriment of social, intellectual and real life skills, sometimes makes these "athletes" developmentally challenged and lacking in some very important respects.

I was on the side of anonymous accusers from the get go, and I'm not surprised by Ashley's revelations.

That being said, they might have been both the victims of this sport. She described herself as acting like an early tween. At 22, was he a fully socially grown adult? I'm not so sure.

Kids should be protected. Protocols and education against sexual harassment will help. However, something needs to be done to help these kids escape the narrow focus of their sport, so they can grow into well-rounded adults instead of lopsided skating nerds.

 

[nussnacker]

Lack of proper socialization, and laser focus on achieving physical prowess to the detriment of social, intellectual and real life skills, sometimes makes these "athletes" developmentally challenged and lacking in some very important respects.

I was on the side of anonymous accusers from the get go, and I'm not surprised by Ashley's revelations.

That being said, they might have been both the victims of this sport. She described herself as acting like an early tween. At 22, was he a fully socially grown adult? I'm not so sure.

Kids should be protected. Protocols and education against sexual harassment will help. However, something needs to be done to help these kids escape the narrow focus of their sport, so they can grow into well-rounded adults instead of lopsided skating nerds.

Not all skaters grow up that strongly focused on skating exclusively, there are quite a few skaters who are very well educated and well-rounded.
But that aside, it's no excuse for John.
John was a full grown adult in the eyes of the law, hence, he should face the consequences of his actions.
The line was drawn at 21, and whether or not he was mentally an adult or not, frankly, does not matter here.
He should've understood that his actions weren't right, not knowing the law does not excuse people when they break it.

 

[Edwin]

Lack of proper socialization, and laser focus on achieving physical prowess to the detriment of social, intellectual and real life skills, sometimes makes these "athletes" developmentally challenged and lacking in some very important respects.

I was on the side of anonymous accusers from the get go, and I'm not surprised by Ashley's revelations.

That being said, they might have been both the victims of this sport. She described herself as acting like an early tween. At 22, was he a fully socially grown adult? I'm not so sure.

Kids should be protected. Protocols and education against sexual harassment will help. However, something needs to be done to help these kids escape the narrow focus of their sport, so they can grow into well-rounded adults instead of lopsided skating nerds.

True. This is the kind of situation that existed at National Training and Development Centers, where kids spend 50 out of 52 weeks away from home. Imagine Karoliy's Ranch in the deep of Texas w/o cell phone coverage and very limited parental visits and only sweet and kind Doctor Nassar to confide in when you're in a miserable mood or when you wanted to vent how cruel your trainers have been that day?

Only education and empowerment of children and teenagers will raise their consciousness and conscience.

 

[Rissa]

My reply to samkrut and flanker was deleted? Isn't it great.

 

[Freddie]

Not all skaters grow up that strongly focused on skating exclusively, there are quite a few skaters who are very well educated and well-rounded.
But that aside, it's no excuse for John.
John was a full grown adult in the eyes of the law, hence, he should face the consequences of his actions.
The line was drawn at 21, and whether or not he was mentally an adult or not, frankly, does not matter here.
He should've understood that his actions weren't right, not knowing the law does not excuse people when they break it.

Do you have to have knowledge of the law to know that climbing into the bed of an unconscious teenager and groping her is wrong? Look, how many different stories have to come out about this guy assaulting minors before the ridiculous reflexive defending of him stops? The alcohol isn't the issue, the party isn't the issue, the lack of chaperones isn't the issue. The issues are: the lack of support victims receive when they do come forward, and the culture of figure skating, where, as Ashley puts it, you don't want to be considered "dramatic" because it could derail your career. We have learned nothing from the brave testimonies of the Larry Nasser victims, because the same dynamic continues.

 

[ancientpeas]

If you reply to a moderated post your response disappears.

 

[[email protected]]

My reply to samkrut and flanker was deleted? Isn't it great.

Well, if it brings a new perspective you could PM me. Otherwise, I am checking out from this thread. There are much more interesting upcoming events in the figure skating world. Like the promised for tomorrow start of selling tickets to Rusnats in Krasnoyarsk. Gotta be first!

 

[nussnacker]

Do you have to have knowledge of the law to know that climbing into the bed of an unconscious teenager and groping her is wrong? Look, how many different stories have to come out about this guy assaulting minors before the ridiculous reflexive defending of him stops? The alcohol isn't the issue, the party isn't the issue, the lack of chaperones isn't the issue. The issues are: the lack of support victims receive when they do come forward, and the culture of figure skating, where, as Ashley puts it, you don't want to be considered "dramatic" because it could derail your career. We have learned nothing from the brave testimonies of the Larry Nasser victims, because the same dynamic continues.

How come you read my comment and found anything there that was even mildly trying to defend John? Please read again and read carefully.
On contrary, I wrote, that if someone was there to imply "John might be a victim too" or that "he wasn't a fully socially grown adult"(a comment I quoted in mine), it's no excuse for him in any way shape or form, since he was of legal age and should know what he was doing isn't right (and even if he was younger, quite frankly, there's no excuse too).

 

[gsk8]

raising awareness in both children, parents and trainers and empowerment of young sportspersons will work.

This.

 

[Sugar Coated]

Maybe it’s my “American” mentality. But speaking truth about a crime committed is not the same as speaking ill of the dead. Especially when the investigation of the crime and the people coming forward we’re being harassed, dismissed, and blamed for the alleged perpetrators death. This also has national implications for the safety of athletes and government spending (I believe SafeSport was just granted additional money from congress?).

And while the deceased does not have the ability to defend himself, I believe his estate would be able to sue for slander?

 

[gkelly]

It seems that what's happening is that now in 2019 women are realizing that things that happened to them years ago and that they feared would not be taken seriously at the time now are being taken seriously, and more women are feeling empowered to speak out about experiences in their past.

Which isn't to say that new offenses aren't also happening now. It takes time for these social changes to permeate, and there will always be some bad apples. But chances are that people who do speak up now will be taken more seriously now than they would have been 10 or 30 years ago.

The problem isn't instantaneously solved, but I do see some slow progress.

And along the way we end up learning that the problem was always bigger than most of us were aware of.

We can't change the past mindset and the behavior of those who behaved badly and criminally in the past. We can't undo what was done. But talking about it now can help change minds and behavior now and in the future.