Ashley Wagner assaulted by John Coughlin

[LiamForeman]

This is exactly why no one takes people on this site seriously sometimes. He still touched her as a grown man when she was a minor, it's still wrong.

But she wasn't a minor. The age of consent in Colorado is 16. She was 17. She was not a minor.

 

[LiamForeman]

Didn’t do anything “bad”? OK, ask yourself this: If a friend/relative crawled into your bed while you were asleep, put his hands inside your pants & then touched genital areas, would you consider that to be “bad”?

Why do you assume he touched her genitals? I didn't get that from her story. Yes, most 'normal' guys wouldn't do what he did, but who knows what happened throughout the night, maybe he misjudged a flirtation that wasn't there? We don't know. And she might not know either if she had too much to drink. But to what basically amounts to a drunk guy and drunk girl finding themselves in bed together and she kicks him out when he starts groping her, well, that happens all the time. Not saying it is right, but not much even happened.

 

[cruzceleste]

Why do you assume he touched her genitals? I didn't get that from her story.

Whatever part that he touched without her consent is assault.

 

[Eleanor]

There’s no reason for me to believe Coughlin did anything bad. Even with Ashley’s story he stopped when she asked.

Distasteful.

 

[andromache]

Why do you assume he touched her genitals? I didn't get that from her story.

I would say it was implied. She said something to the effect of "she realized he knew his way around a woman's body" because he was an older, adult man. However, I do not think it is helpful or productive to speculate as to the graphic details of what transpired.

 

[sailormoon]

Wagner said she opened her eyes after five minutes, pulled away from Coughlin, grabbed his hand and told him stop. He did and left the room.

I remember her as the toughest girl in figure skating and her story sounds very credible. If Wagner had not been a strong woman who could say no, it could have been much worse. SafeSport halted its probe in February but it needs to address "uncomfortable power imbalances" in the sport to protect the community.

 

[brightphoton]

But she wasn't a minor. The age of consent in Colorado is 16. She was 17. She was not a minor.

The way that age of consent works is that you (1) first have to give consent, then (2) we figure out if you're of the age of maturity or not.

Ashley appeared to be unconscious when John groped her, so step #1 isn't fulfilled. It wouldn't matter if Ashley were age 117.

 

[Gullygirl84]

Beyond tragic? Coughlin came on to her, she told him to stop and he did. This kind of thing has happened more times to me than I can remember. In fact, in pretty much the exact wording. First you try to pretend you're sound asleep thinking he'll get the message. Then change your position moving away from him, and when that doesn't work you just say "Will you just stop?? I'm trying to sleep!" End of story. Yes, Coughlin is a creepster, no one is doubting her story and this hopefully help Coughlin's accusers emotionally. And I think it's good that Ashley spoke her truth after seeing young Alysa Liu winning Nationals because let's face it, Alysa is a YOUNG 13 who seems to be extremely sheltered. But to extol Ashley for being so brave just for saying a guy came on to her and stopped when she told him stop to me at least kind of makes me roll my eyes. I'm not rolling my eyes at Ashley, everyone has their truth and feelings, but I'm not really getting 'beyond tragic' like others are saying. But Ashley helped start a dialogue about drinking at parties and the potential risks of doing so. So, good for Ashley for doing that.

"came on to her"...I just don't equate coming on to someone with crawling into the bed of an unwilling participant and groping them while they are asleep, obviously not minding if the person stays asleep and is essentially a corpse for the whole thing. Just because it's happened to a lot of us, doesn't make it any less than assault.

 

[LiamForeman]

Whatever part that he touched without her consent is assault.

Legally speaking, yes. But if someone patted me on the back without my consent that would be legally be considered 'assault' too. There are degrees to certain assaults but all are considered assault.

 

[Beckaboomer]

This thread is actually getting a bit sickening now, with people speculating about whether or not what he did was "that bad." IT WAS. FULL STOP. You don't grope an unconscious person, I don't care if you think they've been flirting with you! This is why it is important to talk about affirmative consent, people. I'm backing out of here now before I use language that needs moderation. :dev2:

 

[jenaj]

Beyond tragic? Coughlin came on to her, she told him to stop and he did. This kind of thing has happened more times to me than I can remember. In fact, in pretty much the exact wording. First you try to pretend you're sound asleep thinking he'll get the message. Then change your position moving away from him, and when that doesn't work you just say "Will you just stop?? I'm trying to sleep!" End of story. Yes, Coughlin is a creepster, no one is doubting her story and this hopefully help Coughlin's accusers emotionally. And I think it's good that Ashley spoke her truth after seeing young Alysa Liu winning Nationals because let's face it, Alysa is a YOUNG 13 who seems to be extremely sheltered. But to extol Ashley for being so brave just for saying a guy came on to her and stopped when she told him stop to me at least kind of makes me roll my eyes. I'm not rolling my eyes at Ashley, everyone has their truth and feelings, but I'm not really getting 'beyond tragic' like others are saying. But Ashley helped start a dialogue about drinking at parties and the potential risks of doing so. So, good for Ashley for doing that.

Seriously? No one has the right to get into bed with someone without their permission. And any unwanted touching is battery under the law.

 

[Casual]

This was forcible assault, he was on top of her with his hands down her pants without consent.

I don’t know how much more clear that can be, it may not have been “violent” but it was forced.

Forcible means "by force". He didn't force her, and by her laying quietly, he might have assumed she acquiesced. As soon as she spoke up, he stopped.

We don't know what happened earlier at the party. Still wrong, and men should be taught from the early age NOT to get sexual without explicit verbal consent. "Looks", "jokes", "flirting", whatever, never justifies crawling into someone's bed. Thinking "she wanted it" is NOT a justification for anything, unless she explicitly says so. They need to be taught!

However, we do know that he worked up very gradually, and she kept silent. He didn't force her, and stopped as soon as asked. "Silence means consent", or as the Romans said, qui tacet consentire videtur, "he who is silent is taken to agree". This is why it's such a tricky situation.

He was wrong to crawl into bed without asking (even if he mistakenly believed she let him know earlier that she'd like him to). She was wrong to keep silent until almost the last moment. Both needed better educating on these matters, IMHO.

 

[fzztsimmons]

Beyond tragic? Coughlin came on to her, she told him to stop and he did. This kind of thing has happened more times to me than I can remember. In fact, in pretty much the exact wording. First you try to pretend you're sound asleep thinking he'll get the message. Then change your position moving away from him, and when that doesn't work you just say "Will you just stop?? I'm trying to sleep!" End of story. Yes, Coughlin is a creepster, no one is doubting her story and this hopefully help Coughlin's accusers emotionally. And I think it's good that Ashley spoke her truth after seeing young Alysa Liu winning Nationals because let's face it, Alysa is a YOUNG 13 who seems to be extremely sheltered. But to extol Ashley for being so brave just for saying a guy came on to her and stopped when she told him stop to me at least kind of makes me roll my eyes. I'm not rolling my eyes at Ashley, everyone has their truth and feelings, but I'm not really getting 'beyond tragic' like others are saying. But Ashley helped start a dialogue about drinking at parties and the potential risks of doing so. So, good for Ashley for doing that.

“came on to her” ?!? coming on to someone is approaching someone in a club and saying they look hot. Getting into a bed where a SEVENTEEN YEAR OLD GIRL IS ASLEEP AND TOUCHING HER OVER HER BODY WHEN SHE IS UNCONSCIOUS IS SEXUAL ASSAULT!!!!!

oh but it’s ok because when the girl finally found her voice to tell the bigger, stronger, older MAN to stop (despite the fact he could yknow, do much worse to her) he left her alone and didn’t rape her!!!!! so its not even anything to be bothered about!!!

this actually disgusts me

 

[jenaj]

But she wasn't a minor. The age of consent in Colorado is 16. She was 17. She was not a minor.

She was still a minor because she was under 18. The age of consent is different from the age of majority.

 

[Casual]

This thread is actually getting a bit sickening now, with people speculating about whether or not what he did was "that bad." IT WAS. FULL STOP. You don't grope an unconscious person, I don't care if you think they've been flirting with you! This is why it is important to talk about affirmative consent, people. I'm backing out of here now before I use language that needs moderation. :dev2:

Totally agree about the need to teach kids (and many adults) about affirmative consent. Especially the boys.

And girls need to be taught how to be strong and protect themselves, and not just lie there quietly, hoping "he'll get the nonverbal message and stop".

 

[skylark]

Well done, Ashley Wagner. She speaks up, she speaks out, she says publicly when something isn't right. And she takes action. She gets demonized for all those things. She's even been attacked on Goldenskate forums for courageously speaking her mind and taking action.

1. In January, upon watching Alysa Liu become US champion at age 13, and in the wake of John Coughlin's suicide, Ashley knew she had to do something.

2. In February, Ashley told her story to officials at U.S. Figure Skating, and

.... after several meetings, she now is working on changes in athlete safety and well-being within the national governing body and speaking in person with groups of young skaters, parents and coaches.

“What happened to Ashley should not happen to anyone, period," USFS spokeswoman Barbara Reichert told USA TODAY Sports in a statement. "Ashley is incredibly strong; not just to have the courage to come forward with her story, but to share her experience publicly to help others. Ashley recently spoke at U.S. Figure Skating athlete safety seminars and her experience and message of empowerment had a profound impact on skaters and their parents."
https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...ting-sexual-assault-john-coughlin/1876517001/​

3. Ashley was "paralyzed by fear" because her assailant was so much bigger than she, his weight overpowered her. She spoke up, and he stopped and left. But still, for years, she was assailed by feelings of guilt that should not have rested on her.

4. Ashley acknowledged that both her social circle and John's were incredibly small, and that athletes on the national team take the same flights, stay in the same hotels, and eat meals together. It doesn't excuse anything, but her words shed light on how this happens.

5.

"Good people can hurt you too. Just because someone is nice, just because they seem to do all the right things, just because they make people laugh, doesn't mean that they are incapable of hurt or abuse. No one is all good or all bad, but the good parts can’t justify the hurt that is caused."
https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...ting-sexual-assault-john-coughlin/1876419001/​

 

[cruzceleste]

Legally speaking, yes. But if someone patted me on the back without my consent that would be legally be considered 'assault' too. There are degrees to certain assaults but all are considered assault.

He was a senior skater, she was sleeping. Whatever reasoning people want to apply to diminish Ashley´s experience, is beyond the point, did she feel insecure and affected her sport life is enough.

 

[Freddie]

How come you read my comment and found anything there that was even mildly trying to defend John? Please read again and read carefully.
On contrary, I wrote, that if someone was there to imply "John might be a victim too" or that "he wasn't a fully socially grown adult"(a comment I quoted in mine), it's no excuse for him in any way shape or form, since he was of legal age and should know what he was doing isn't right (and even if he was younger, quite frankly, there's no excuse too).

I wasn't trying to accuse you of defending John. Sorry if I gave that impression. The only part of your post I was responding to was the bit about knowledge of the law, where you said, "not knowing the law does not excuse people when they break it." The rest of my comment was directed at the skating community in general, not you. Sorry I wasn't clearer.

 

[Casual]

Whatever part that he touched without her consent is assault.

There're degrees of "assault", though.

This is not nearly the same level of wickedness as some other notorious abuse cases. It's not helping anyone to exaggerate it into something it was not.

He was wrong, he should have been taught better. Also, the systems should have been prepared better. Also, it's long overdue to teach everyone about affirmative consent.

But her account doesn't paint him as some "monster" similar to the likes of Nassar, Weinstein, Allen, Epstein, or other powerful adult pedophiles or rapists. Lets not pretend it's all the same, because it's not helpful.

 

[Freddie]

sarakimm, it's ridiculous to accuse me of "reflexive defending of him", since I was his loudest critic on this board, when first allegations surfaced. Look up my posts. LOL.

Umm...I don't believe I accused you of anything, Casual. I responded to nussnacker's post. Are you also nussnacker? I explained to him/her that I had not meant to give that impression.