Marshalls on ABC

[Tonichelle]

You know, it's funny...this may be controversial to say on a board like this...but seriously, if Evan really wanted to be seen as masculine...he wouldn't be figure skating in the first place...right? :yes:

I've not said that about Evan, but when the boards all hated Mike for being 'too straight' I was saying 'if he was SO homophobic and typical caveman American male - why is he in the sport that is typically thought of as being a gay man's sport?'

no one ever gives a 'straight' (pun !) answer

there's just no pleasing some people... so why even try anymore? :sheesh: With Mike gone, someone has to be the punching bag, and Evan has almost willingly stepped up the plate.

It's amazing how manipulated people will become... they'll follow the media anywhere... (my mom still doesn't believe Evan is as 'manly' as the media pushes... because she says he talks like a valley girl... like, whatever, mom!)

 

[gio]

Belbin and Agosto exhibition was good. They did something different. Men and dance couples are generally very original in their choices in galas.

Ladies in the last period are becoming way too booooooring. The same ballads. Yu Na, Kimmie, Mao, Sasha, Carolina K., Miki, Yukari... They all do ballads. There are some exceptions such as Emily, Alissa and the nearly improvised number of Caroline Z. on Walking on Sunshine. All three girls were way more exciting to watch. IMO, exhibitions should be fun.

 

[ae9177]

Was no one else impressed with Evan's footwork in his first program? I thought this was the best footwork I have seen all year.

It's awesome, I like it too.

 

[Tinymavy15]

Sasha "Hurt"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkulFySB7pA

Thank You so much Spunsilver!!! :thumbsup: Sasha is amazing here. another favorite. But then again, what isn't a favorite?

She looks like she is healthier now than a year ago. She was REALLY thin then and now she looks like she is at a better weight and just beatiful. I loved that glittery swirl in her hair... so original. That ending pose was to die for. She brough tears to my eyes agai. Simply beautiful. her spiras looked better than ever.

there was somthing in her face at the start that suddely made me think of that timy girl in the white dress at the 2000 nationals. The same expression.

 

[Tinymavy15]

"Awkward" indeed is all I can say about an ABC fluff bit whose premise is, "I know, let's make Peggy Fleming give Evan Lysacek an award for 'manly fashion' -- that'll bring in the NASCAR crowd!"

tell me about it. Evan looked really embarassed. It was a really dumb fuff

 

[demarinis5]

Belbin and Agosto exhibition was good. They did something different. Men and dance couples are generally very original in their choices in galas.

Ladies in the last period are becoming way too booooooring. The same ballads. Yu Na, Kimmie, Mao, Sasha, Carolina K., Miki, Yukari... They all do ballads. There are some exceptions such as Emily, Alissa and the nearly improvised number of Caroline Z. on Walking on Sunshine. All three girls were way more exciting to watch. IMO, exhibitions should be fun.

I agree Gio. I always enjoyed Michelle's and Sasha's exhibitions numbers I just wish that they would skate to something different other than ballads. I loved it when Irina skated the exhibition number with the cowboy hat She looked like she was having a lot of fun and I sure did enjoy it.

 

[Vodka Shot]

The problem is that it seems in USA, figure skating is viewed as a gay sport for men. I think this idea should be changed. I don't know how, but I think it should. OT, so I won't stretch it too long.

I don't think there is anything short of removing the music, costumes, and choreography that could change that perception in America. FS would have to be stripped of all artistry to accomplish that. Furthermore, I don't see why the perception of it being a gay sport needs to be a problem. Imagine if someone said that basketball is seen as an African American sport and that perception needs to be changed.

 

[Mathman]

Imagine if someone said that basketball is seen as an African American sport and that perception needs to be changed.

They don't say it out loud, but behind closed doors the NBA does everything it can to push white players like two-time MVP Steve Nash. The powers that be are quite aware of the possibility that the white audience will eventully lose interest.

 

[Vodka Shot]

That's awful. Maybe the NBA and USFSA should get together; they can brainstorm together how to fix their "flawed" image problems? :disapp:

 

[jennylovskt]

Ideally that's the way it should be. But unfortunately, this is NOT a "better world", and there IS the notion (at least in the US) that men who FS are mostly gay. (doesn't help the case, though, that it's probably true )

RD, I think your statement should be under a big question mark. I know in figure skating, it might have higher rate of gay population than the average. But I think to say "mostly gay" is not correct at all.

There is no hard evidence that they are "mostly gay". It's a feeling that people have. I think most of the time, people (especially people in North America - USA and Canada) make assumptions based on the behaviors to which, if in another country or in a century or two before, would be viewed as a gentleman like behaviors. Some men show more masculinity, some don't; some stronger, some gentler; some more sensitive, some tougher; some have more artistic abilities - like all the men in figure skating, some don't - could not do figure skating, dance, music, art ... at all. But they are all men, no more, no less. If the assumption based on only these observations, I have to say that probably all the men in the upper class in 17 - 19th centuries should be viewed as gays.

Under this North American culture's pressure, the men with special talented and gifted artistic abilities want desperately to tell the world that they are 100% manly men. That is wrong. That should not be this way.

 

[Tinymavy15]

Was no one else impressed with Evan's footwork in his first program? I thought this was the best footwork I have seen all year.

One of the most annoying things Dick has ever said:

"That's a really difficult move, that back shoot the duck."

I have seen pre-juvs doing a back shoot the duck into a double lutz/double loop combo. Most prelims can do a good backward shoot the duck.

Didn't Johnny do anything else that impressed Dick!?

i know. He likes the strangest things. he probly mentioned it becasue No elite skater does shoot the ducks anymore and he likes seeing somthing from the old days in there.

 

[attyfan]

Usually, Johnny isn't my cup of tea, but the trio nummber with G&P was so creative. Denis choreographed most of it. I think he will be the new go to guy for choreo, once they retire. wow
...

ITA! Maybe, if he has the time, Denis could choreograph an exhibition routine for Johnny -- it could be good for both of them, and Denis could practice choreography for singles skaters without consequences if something proves to be non-CoP friendly.

 

[hockeyfan228]

"Awkward" indeed is all I can say about an ABC fluff bit whose premise is, "I know, let's make Peggy Fleming give Evan Lysacek an award for 'manly fashion' -- that'll bring in the NASCAR crowd!"

 

[hockeyfan228]

They don't say it out loud, but behind closed doors the NBA does everything it can to push white players like two-time MVP Steve Nash.

Not only white, but Canadian and quite the ladies' man. (Oh, I forgot, this is the NBA, not skating, so the ladies' man thing isn't important.)

 

[debdelilah]

RD, I think your statement should be under a big question mark. I know in figure skating, it might have higher rate of gay population than the average. But I think to say "mostly gay" is not correct at all.

There is no hard evidence that they are "mostly gay". It's a feeling that people have. I think most of the time, people (especially people in North America - USA and Canada) make assumptions based on the behaviors to which, if in another country or in a century or two before, would be viewed as a gentleman like behaviors.

I agree with you about the mostly gay stereotype probably being wrong, and potentially harmful, but I do think it's worth noting that there is a mostly straight paradigm that governs almost every other sport and area of life, that is equally stifling. And I think--even in North America--there are a lot of people who, being straight themselves, automatically assume that everyone else is too, stereotypes aside. (Likewise, being gay, it is easier to think that other people are probably gay, even when they aren't).

The association of homosexuality with the arts is more than a century or two old, and doesn't exist in only one culture. In Renaissance England as well as in Japan centuries ago, there was a tradition of men playing women in the theatres that developed homoerotic elements that sometimes arise within the plays themselves. (For instance, the way Rosalind calls herself Ganymede when she she courts Orlando while disguised as a boy.) Homosexuality was so common in 16th century Italy that the number of investigations was as high as 40% of the population--the punishment was a small fine that was often not enforced; and it was part of the culture there. In Greece, Italy, and Japan, it wasn't considered a sexual identity exclusive from marriage--people could and did do both.

Homosexuality is also associated with numerous poets, playwrights, and artists--Shakespeare, Marlowe, A.E. Houseman, Walt Whitman, W.H. Auden, Oscar Wilde, Henry James, Michelangelo, Sappho, H.D.(Hilda Dolittle), Katherine Phillips(17th c. English poet), Edward Albee, Tenessee Williams, etc. Homosexuality is known to have existed in Native American cultures--"two-spirits" were what would be known today as transsexuals, and were often shamans; there are also instances in African culture. Homosexuality is referenced in Japanese literature from the 11th century; in modern times, there's the playwright Yukio Mishima, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukio_Mishima, and the actor Akihiro Miwa, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akihiro_Miwa, etc. Tsuyoshi Shinjo, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsuyoshi_Shinjo, is the guy Daisuke Takahashi talked about recently, saying that if they were ever to talk it would become more than a conversation between athletes. Joe Odagiri, an actor that Daisuke said "has a special aura that attracts both men and women," starred in this movie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Himiko

I wouldn't think artistry is limited to the upper classes, or that all members of the upper class would have been artistic. Look at the difference between Marlowe and Shakespeare(the best of the their time, and neither upper class) and Ben Johnson(who had every benefit of both university education and status, but whose plays didn't last).

Finally there is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_sexuality#Homosexual_behavior

 

[jennylovskt]

I agree with you about the mostly gay stereotype probably being wrong, and potentially harmful, but I do think it's worth noting that there is a mostly straight paradigm that governs almost every other sport and area of life, that is equally stifling. And I think--even in North America--there are a lot of people who, being straight themselves, automatically assume that everyone else is too, stereotypes aside. (Likewise, being gay, it is easier to think that other people are probably gay, even when they aren't).

The association of homosexuality with the arts is more than a century or two old, and doesn't exist in only one culture. In Renaissance England as well as in Japan centuries ago, there was a tradition of men playing women in the theatres that developed homoerotic elements that sometimes arise within the plays themselves. (For instance, the way Rosalind calls herself Ganymede when she she courts Orlando while disguised as a boy.) Homosexuality was so common in 16th century Italy that the number of investigations was as high as 40% of the population--the punishment was a small fine that was often not enforced; and it was part of the culture there. In Greece, Italy, and Japan, it wasn't considered a sexual identity exclusive from marriage--people could and did do both.

Homosexuality is also associated with numerous poets, playwrights, and artists--Shakespeare, Marlowe, A.E. Houseman, Walt Whitman, W.H. Auden, Oscar Wilde, Henry James, Michelangelo, Sappho, H.D.(Hilda Dolittle), Katherine Phillips(17th c. English poet), Edward Albee, Tenessee Williams, etc. Homosexuality is known to have existed in Native American cultures--"two-spirits" were what would be known today as transsexuals, and were often shamans; there are also instances in African culture. Homosexuality is referenced in Japanese literature from the 11th century; in modern times, there's the playwright Yukio Mishima, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukio_Mishima, and the actor Akihiro Miwa, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akihiro_Miwa, etc. Tsuyoshi Shinjo, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsuyoshi_Shinjo, is the guy Daisuke Takahashi talked about recently, saying that if they were ever to talk it would become more than a conversation between athletes. Joe Odagiri, an actor that Daisuke said "has a special aura that attracts both men and women," starred in this movie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Himiko

I wouldn't think artistry is limited to the upper classes, or that all members of the upper class would have been artistic. Look at the difference between Marlowe and Shakespeare(the best of the their time, and neither upper class) and Ben Johnson(who had every benefit of both university education and status, but whose plays didn't last).

Finally there is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_sexuality#Homosexual_behavior

Thanks for all the references and the histories related to this topic. Yes, it was there. Although I would argue about the percentage of it, I agree that it was there from the beginning and in many different cultures.

I think there is a difference between the existence in a culture and the existence in human. The former would be much larger, and wider in an open culture, such as Renaissance, while the later would not change or fluctuate with the culture.

There is something that I have to clarify. I didn't mean in any way to imply that the upper class was more artistic or had better artistry. I meant to say that the manners of upper class men in 17 - 19th centuries could be seen by the eyes of modern people as gays.

 

[dutchherder]

Debdelilah,

Thank you for your informative post! I would like to point out, however, that there is no proof that Shakespeare was either gay or straight. The fact is that we have remarkably little information about this great playwright beyond the dates of his baptism, marriage, births of his children, when his plays were performed, and his death. We also know that he was a witness at a marriage once. Even the accepted date of his birth-- April 23-- is an estimate based on baptismal records at his church in Stratford. Speculation about his sexuality is just that-- speculation.

 

[debdelilah]

Debdelilah,

Thank you for your informative post! I would like to point out, however, that there is no proof that Shakespeare was either gay or straight. The fact is that we have remarkably little information about this great playwright beyond the dates of his baptism, marriage, births of his children, when his plays were performed, and his death. We also know that he was a witness at a marriage once. Even the accepted date of his birth-- April 23-- is an estimate based on baptismal records at his church in Stratford. Speculation about his sexuality is just that-- speculation.

Yes, this is true...I wasn't really talking about sexual identity, as in exclusively homosexual behavior, but just the homosexual attraction itself. Shakespeare was married and had children. He wrote sonnets both to a man and to a woman, and there are elements in his plays--like the one in As You Like It, and others in Twelfth Night--that have a homoerotic theme.

 

[attyfan]

Yes, this is true...I wasn't really talking about sexual identity, as in exclusively homosexual behavior, but just the homosexual attraction itself. Shakespeare was married and had children. He wrote sonnets both to a man and to a woman, and there are elements in his plays--like the one in As You Like It, and others in Twelfth Night--that have a homoerotic theme.

Would the homoerotic themes in Shakespeare's plays be considered as such by his audiences, or, would they just take it as made necessary by the fact that women did not go on stage, so guys had to play the female roles -- with homo-eroticism being a later day "interpretation"?

 

[debdelilah]

Would the homoerotic themes in Shakespeare's plays be considered as such by his audiences, or, would they just take it as made necessary by the fact that women did not go on stage, so guys had to play the female roles -- with homo-eroticism being a later day "interpretation"?

That would depend on which play...and which members of the audience. But no, it's not just a latter day interpretation; it's part of the reason Oliver Cromwell had all the theatres in England closed when he came to power. Edward II by Christopher Marlowe is quite explicit in it's theme of homosexuality. The use of the name Ganymede in As You Like It is a classical reference to homosexuality--audience members would have picked up on that. There are also plays by Shakespeare's contemporaries that go further--like Galathea by John Lyly--in which two girls(played by boys) disguise themselves as boys to avoid being part of a sacrifice to Neptune, and while disguised, fall in love with each other. When they find that they are both girls, they are still in love with each other--in the resolution, Venus says that she is going to turn one of them into a guy(but keep in mind too, that all plays had to pass through censorship at this time; quick fixes at the end don't change the fact that the playwright chose to deal with these themes in the first place).

James I came to the throne in 1603 in England; he himself, though he had children with Queen Anne of Denmark, had a number of male lovers; he also loved theatre, and was the sponser of Shakespeare's company, which was called "The King's Men" during his reign. (It had been called "The Lord Chamberlain's Men" under Elizabeth).